Upfront Payment?

I contacted a maker about an inexpensive fixed blade a while back. I received a response telling me it would take about a month and information to make a paypal payment up front. That's where my correspondence stopped:eek: If the knife is completed and ready to ship that's one thing, if it's a future production that the maker routinely makes with no special materials that's another:thumbdn:
 
Crossada I agree with Don that it will show up.

No matter what when I am shipping knives or money to a knife maker I send it priority mail with delivery conformation and have had good luck.

matt's a good guy and he will be understanding

As for the paying a maker in advance

I once contacted a maker he told me he was about 8 months to a year out he required payment upon ordering. I declined and did not place an order. Right know I prepaid for a whip and connot get in touch with the maker I am not happy. I will never prepay in advance again the whip was not much but it is the point of it.

On another note I have no problem when dealing with certain makers that make one knife at a time asking for payment when they start a project . It better be done around the time they say it should be done and I apreciate communication back and forth. If there is a problem and they let me know I am very understanding.

But I would never pay to get on a waiting list to many varables in that equation
 
JParanee said:
Crossada I agree with Don that it will show up.

No matter what when I am shipping knives or money to a knife maker I send it priority mail with delivery conformation and have had good luck.

matt's a good guy and he will be understanding
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thanks Joe, I sure hope so:o if it doesn't show i can't afford to resend more money at this time. the cert info still hasn't showed up online like the clerk told me today it would so i'm still worried.
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i'm guess i will wait to see what happens tomorrow then i will have to find out what i have to do to get some kind of trace going on

thanks for all the advice
Mark
 
hi Mark, i wouldnt worry yet, ive had USPS tracking #'s not show up for a few days in the computer. Not sure exactly why that is, but it does happen. As of Friday the funds have not arrived, but my mail also usually runs a few days behind what one would consider "normal".

Now to the topic at hand, deposits, payment etc... This has always been a tricky spot for most makers I know including myself. This is also one reason Im hesitant on taking any "custom" orders to start with.

Ive made custom orders, one very recently, that the customer just "changed" there mind, and didnt want the knife. This was after I made the knife specifically for them to there spec., including the Rowe sheath that cost me $70. So this had me sitting on a $500 knife, that was made to one customers specs, and took time to make that I could have finished up a knife for a long waiting customer. IF he would have had a deposit down I think a "change" of mind wouldnt have been so easy. No huge deal as i listed the knife and it sold within an hour, but the potential was there for me to be sitting on a knife that would take forever to sell.

So one way to look at it is that deposits weed out those that arent serious, but not always. Deposits also obviosly help pay for materials and other basics of running a shop.

Ive been torn about this and have taken a few deposits, which I have stopped doing, its simply uneasy for me to be sitting on peoples money, especially when im so backed up in the shop and generally taking twice as long as ive told them on an order.

SO for me the decision is to NOT take deposits, and only take "loose" orders, meaning that the customer gives me some general ideas of what they want and leave the rest to me.
 
Well Gents... I sent the payment. I want to trust my fellow man. If I get taken... I'll kill 'em. :)
I'll let you know what happens. This will be 6 months from now.
Thanks for all the responses.
 
Lycosa said:
KJ--- To answer your question: I was asked to send the deposit when the knife was being started.
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Lycosa said:
Well Gents... I sent the payment. I want to trust my fellow man. If I get taken... I'll kill 'em. :)
I'll let you know what happens. This will be 6 months from now.
Thanks for all the responses.
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I'm confused. :confused: If the maker is asking for the deposit when the knife is being started then why the 6 month wait (you hope) ;) before you will know?

Especially in these hard times, we can certainly understand buyers/collectors canceling knife orders when money is tight and there's many things which take priority. However in my opinion a buyer/collector who cancels a custom order after the knife has been completed is about as irresponsible as the maker who takes a deposit and doesn't deliver.
Of course, the exception would be when a maker doesn't inform the buyer when he/she starts the knife or the completed knife is not up to par or as specified.

Anyway, I hope everything turns out for the good.

In regard to the mail, I agree with Don in that express mail (though not cheap) is very safe in that it gets scanned at every point and hardly sits anywhere long enough to get lost or messed with. Registered mail is probably the safest method of shipping/mailing of all in that it's accounted for by every postal employee who touches it and it's always kept under lock & key. If it does come up missing the last employee who touched it is in serious trouble. Registered mail is however, as Don mentioned, the slowest mail going because of the secure manner in which it's handled.
 
While registered does slow things down, registered priority is still pretty fast.

I think with regard to cancelled orders, it sucks, but how much it sucks depends on the situation and customer, and method of contact. I've had cancellations of knife orders that were approximately: "I'd like a leuku pattern bushcrafter in ironwood with about a 5.5 inch blade" or "dude, DIRK! 12 inch blade, you pick the handle materials" - cancellation isn't going to be a huge deal, it sucks, but I'm not out time and money on a knife I can't list. I'll sometimes offer to hold on for a few weeks or (depending on reputation and previous orders) put it on layaway.

The only ones that really get me are the 'lost in space' ones. Where I've had fairly regular communication and even WIP photos, and then when I'm done I get no responses. How long do you sit on the knife? Is the person having life issues that prevent contact or what?
 
We try to get at least three different methods to contact the customer when the order is taken, hoping that at least one will work if something with the customer changes. We will try to contact them using whatever means we have at hand for 30 days after we notified him that the knife was ready. This policy is posted on our web site. After the thirty days, the knife is available for sale to the first guy with the money and we keep a list of people that would like a shot at a knife that we have available under these circumstances.

We don't like getting a notice that a customer won't be taking delivery of a knife, but that happens every now and then. It is better if we find that out early rather than late, but it really doesn't make much difference because we wouldn't have agreed to make the knife anyway if we weren't willing to keep it for sale. Sometimes bad things happen to good people on both sides of the sale. We understand it, accept it and the customer won't notice a difference if he wishes to place an order at a better time in his life.

The ones that disappear or string us along are a different story. This type of customer is added to a relatively short list of people that we will refuse to sell a knife to. Thankfully, even in these times, people like this are few and far between..
 
As a maker I insist that the customer not send any upfront money. It is rough making a knife after you have spent the money. At the present I have an order from a customer who is furnishing some of the material ( I really don't like this either), anyway, when he sent it he sent a money order for payment in full. No way would I cash it before the knife is ready to deliver. Just bad business. If I die I can just imagine what my wife would tell someone if they were wanting her to send them their money back. Some choice words come to mind. At least if it is in the box with the material my buddies would find it and get it back to the man.

This being said, never-never-never-never put someone's name on a blade or any other writing without full payment in advance.
 
KJ--- I did ask the maker to do a special order. He doesn't know when exactly he'll start the knife but it'll be here within 6 months. I'm cool with that.
I'll be back! :)
 
Kohai999 said:
You put the maker in a bad position, Keith....and there are people who have been waiting for knives who DID NOT pay a deposit from this maker for much longer than that.

The maker is not full time anymore, due to his inability to make knives in a timely manner....he makes some of the best forged knives on the planet, but is not capeable of making them quickly.

You put your issues on the maker's shoulders, and his issues are such that he cannot meet anticipated delivery dates.

If you want your money back, I'll take care of that for you, no lose proposition, right?.;)
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I never looked at it as having put him in a bad position, but I think you are correct. He probably only agreed to take the money because he didn't want to disappoint me. Anyway, I have always been patient and can wait until he has the time to fit my order in.

As I posted earlier, the money is not the problem, it is my great desire to have the knife in my possession.

Under no circumstances do I think that I have been treated unfairly by this maker. He is as honest as they come and I will get my knife.
 
one way or another money or an expenditure of time will take place on one end before the other end complies so it is always a trust thing.


I have done deposits and full out payments ahead and in a couple cases i have even received a blade without paying for it until I it was in my hands.

My logic is why would I do business with anyone unless I feel totally confident in their skills and trustworthiness. If I didn't trust them I simply wouldn't buy from them.
 
Special order involves few things such as expectation, time and money. So it is a matter of mutual understanding, trust and respect between the one who made the order and the knife-maker.

Upfront payment either in the form of a deposit or a full payment is alright if it is agreed by both parties and justified with the time frame and the reasoning.

At one time, a maker asked me to pay a 25% of the pricing as a deposit just because the knife is a one off and he might face a problem of selling it if I suddenly back off. I did pay the deposit and he finished the knife in the promised time.

At another time, a maker refused to take any upfront payment at all. And he finished the knife in the promised time. And the payment was sent just before he shipped the knife.

Once, about two years ago (i.e. Feb, 2008) I logged a special order of a hawk from a maker in Maine and he asked for a full upfront payment because his wife and his son needed fund for a Appalachian Trail hike. So I sent him the full payment. After few emails then suddenly there was no more news from him at all. I tracked his activity in the internet and it seems there is no more internet activity for him since that date till now. So, I guess he might be facing some very bad problem. And I hope he could solve it and make a come back. Anyhow it's very much better if he could frankly let me know about his problem and I don't have to left in the dark. After all money is not everything :)

In another time, I logged a special order from a maker. No upfront payment at all. Anyhow when it was about the time to start the project suddenly I faced a financial problem. I sent an email to let him know about my problem and he just understandingly canceled the order.

In my dealing with knife makers so far, I found out that about 60% refused to take any upfront payment, about 30% requested a deposit and less than 10% requested a full payment.

So, which one is the better practice .. to do or not to do an upfront payment? It depends! The risks and the impacts of any of those both practices financially and mentally are on both sides! And as I said earlier the key of this issue is very dependence on the mutual understanding, trust and respect of both parties.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Mohd.
 
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the knife gods were looking out for me after all! i just got home to check the usps tracking bar and i see the certified was attempted yesterday. what a relief.

i had started yesterday gathering info on the postal inspectors to find out what i needed to do to get them on the hunt so this puts a big smile on my face.
 
This is a great thread and a scary thread to read.

I am a rookie knife-maker. I started making knives as a hobby for myself just because I loved the thought of making my own knives. Recently I have been posting my finished work of knives I made for friends and family....For free I might ad:thumbup:

Anyway, after posting my work I started getting emails left and right from people wanting to buy knives from me. I was not even close to being ready to start selling knives. But, I was floored at the thought someone wanting a knife from me of my design. So I went with it. I just asked for a deposit of half to cover my cost for heat treating and ordering special materials for the knives. Without even asking, they sent payments in full. I replied back saying that was not necessary and that I could send half back. They reply saying...They can wait. I still feel a little uneasy about that...

One of the guys is in the Army and going back to the Ghan in October....since he paid me in full and is a soldier...I offered to build him a knife to show my support free of charge. He has been very patient and I am getting very close to sending his along with 17 other blades off for heat treat.

Back to the topic at hand here. I only ask for a deposit to cover my butt on materials and other cost. I am far from a rich man and again never planned on selling knives this early in my journey. I know once I am set-up with materials and endless varieties of other steels. I will never take money up front. regardless if they are willing and patient. I agree, sitting on someones money is very uneasy for me. But at this point, I do it to cover my ass. My wife is about to start going to school to become a nurse.....money will be even tighter. So, I think if both parties are on the same page.....and the knife is not paid for in full until completion.....there is no problem......JUST DELIVER THE GOODS AND KEEP IN EXCELLENT CONTACT.

I hope that everyone that has paid in full and are in wait for the product gets it in a timely matter. Most of all, are pleased with the end results!

Thanks for all the info here guys....has helped a rookie out tremendously!

Chris
 
And why should you...... what knifemaker would f***k with a dude who has almost 20,000 posts on BF! :D
 
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