Urban B.O.B.

[koyote]

I really wonder about the self promoted "experts" that keep making decrees in these type of threads, endorsing behaviors that will increase your personal risk during an emergency, and actively arguing with or insulting anyone who has a different viewpoint. I seriously question advice that puts people at serious risk, while advocating carrying many pounds of tools on the remote chance of needing to breech a fortified building?

Here are a couple of "facts"...not saying right/wrong...just fact.

*A "kit" containing bolt cutters/pry bar/lock pics/etc., carried on your person, or in your vehicle in a time of emergency, or in preparation for an emergency, will be viewed as "burglary tools" by any LEO you happen to come across.

*Possession of "burglary tools" is a felony in every state during normal times. In an emergency with civil authority (LEO/National Guard) dealing with looting/riot/etc. using such a kit very well may get you shot, and at minimum will get you locked up for the duration.

Okay, I'm going to leave out lockpicks and master keys and such because I find them to be a waste of space- if I'm dealing with survival situations in an unrban environment there are much better and faster, though more destructive ways to open most doors. And the truth is that I'm not seeing breaking into buildings as a primary or even secondary activity.

Directly referring to fencing pliers, linesman pliers, multitools, ball peen hammers, gorilla bars, widgy and micro widgy bars, etc.-

1: I haven't done a full search, so I can't verify that posession of burglary tools is a felony in all 50 states. I did find some online references to particular states. I'll just let it slide.

2: EVERY reference I have found is very clear that the possesion must be in the act of committing a burglary or in a clear case of intent to commit a burglary.

(Note that in some cases, such as Arizona, possessing or purchasing a vehicle master key or maniluplation key is a felony unless it is used int he course of your daily business. This may apply to lockpicks and such items in some states)

3: In an emergency situation, police officers, even at their most obtuse and power hungry worst, have far more important things to do than go looking through random satchels just because.

Directly referencing the idea that an emergency kit in a vehicle will get you arrested- I have always carried a large prybar, shovel, axe, and fencing pliers in my vehicles. Always. They are not and never have been considered burglary tools, and I have been stopped and searched on numerous occasions. (I used to drive a VW bus, and for some reason was a terry stop magnet for several years after getting out of the military. Like, 15 stops in 6 years with no moving violations. Hell, I even had a state trooper in IL trying to open a can of honey to see if there was drugs inside because I stopped for coffee at 9pm in the wrong town. - Old Civil Defense can, soldered shut. Dollar store pair of slipjoint pliers on a 5 inch lid. Fail. It was hilarious to watch him try it, though.)

 

[sunshine]

Really have no idea why you referenced my post. My post had nothing to do with fencing pliers/shovels/VW's or canned honey.

My post was pretty specific...A "kit" containing bolt cutters/pry bar/lock pics/etc.,...being a bad idea to walk around with in a disaster area where looters are uniformly viewed as vermin, and treated accordingly.

Plus it would be kinda heavy...further reducing your survival chances.

You say;
"In an emergency situation, police officers, even at their most obtuse and power hungry worst, have far more important things to do than go looking through random satchels just because."

Then you say;
"Hell, I even had a state trooper in IL trying to open a can of honey to see if there was drugs inside because I stopped for coffee at 9pm in the wrong town."

To me, those two statements kinda conflict with one another, lol.

The Cop or Guardsman you encounter in a disaster area (or anywhere else), are not going to know if you are a "good" guy. All they have to go by is first impressions. If your "sachel" contains bolt cutters, pry bar, and lock pics, chances are a vocal "but I'm a prepper!" are not going to impress them.

 

[kycolonel]

I really wonder about the self promoted "experts" that keep making decrees in these type of threads, endorsing behaviors that will increase your personal risk during an emergency, and actively arguing with or insulting anyone who has a different viewpoint. I seriously question advice that puts people at serious risk, while advocating carrying many pounds of tools on the remote chance of needing to breech a fortified building?

Here are a couple of "facts"...not saying right/wrong...just fact.

*A "kit" containing bolt cutters/pry bar/lock pics/etc., carried on your person, or in your vehicle in a time of emergency, or in preparation for an emergency, will be viewed as "burglary tools" by any LEO you happen to come across.

*Possession of "burglary tools" is a felony in every state during normal times. In an emergency with civil authority (LEO/National Guard) dealing with looting/riot/etc. using such a kit very well may get you shot, and at minimum will get you locked up for the duration.

Not the best "survival" strategy for your waiting family if you are indefinitely detained for a felony on the way home with your "survival" kit.

Here are a couple of reality based "opinions" on urban survival...

*Anyone living in tornado/hurricane/earthquake areas (all of us) would be foolish not to have an ax/prybar set/and leather work gloves in their home to aid in getting out of a partially destroyed or flooded house or apartment, (and to aid others once out).

*A 10 ounce mutitool will defeat any chain link fence in the country, if you need to take an urban shortcut in an emergency.

*If you actually need to force entry to a building to gain emergency shelter in a true emergency...I would guess 98% + of the buildings in the US have a glass window somewhere.

*If you have to walk home, (likely in an earthquake affected urban area), it will increase our survival chances if we prepare for "real world" challenges.

*Unimpeded by excess carried weight, it's pretty easy to walk 30 miles in 24hrs safely and with comfort if you have;
/decent footwear
/light rain jacket & gloves
/surefire light
/water
/jerky & cliff bars etc.
/cash
/small AM-FM radio
/multi tool
/personal defense weapon,
/and a good attitude.

:thumbup: Yes. It seems that the one all important survival item known as "common sense" is conspicuously absent from the BOB kit of some otherwise expert oracles of knowledge. Unfortunately, this is not an item that can be gleaned from a book or purchased at Supplycaptain.com, and all the gadgets and arrogance one could stuff into a backpack won't compensate for the lack of it in a real survival situation.

 

[sunshine]

:thumbup: Yes. It seems that the one all important survival item known as "common sense" is conspicuously absent from the BOB kit of some otherwise expert oracles of knowledge. Unfortunately, this is not an item that can be gleaned from a book or purchased at Supplycaptain.com, and all the gadgets and arrogance one could stuff into a backpack won't compensate for the lack of it in a real survival situation.

Wish I had said that ...yeah...that's it exactly.

 

[dougo83]

:thumbup: Yes. It seems that the one all important survival item known as "common sense" is conspicuously absent from the BOB kit of some otherwise expert oracles of knowledge. Unfortunately, this is not an item that can be gleaned from a book or purchased at Supplycaptain.com, and all the gadgets and arrogance one could stuff into a backpack won't compensatewell, you certainly have that under control now don't ya? for the lack of it in a real survival situation.

I have yet to see why others give a rip what someone decides to carry in their kit. I carry a pry-bar with my GTFO gear. Contrary to the nonsense posted by sunshine, I won't get in any sort of trouble packing one along in a disaster area. How do I know this? Hurricane duty.

As far as this notion of just packing a tiny amount of gear so one can be "comfortable," here's a little newsflash: a "real" survival scenario is anything but comfortable and not having additonal gear can certainly play into that. I, for one, only carry what I know works based on REAL-LIFE EXPERIENCE.

So, I'll tell ya what, I will certainly place my pry bar over your (feigned) "humility" any day. It will get me into a lot more doors and keep me out of alot more trouble.

 

[kycolonel]

I have yet to see why others give a rip what someone decides to carry in their kit. I carry a pry-bar with my GTFO gear. Contrary to the nonsense posted by sunshine, I won't get in any sort of trouble packing one along in a disaster area. How do I know this? Hurricane duty.

As far as this notion of just packing a tiny amount of gear so one can be "comfortable," here's a little newsflash: a "real" survival scenario is anything but comfortable and not having additonal gear can certainly play into that. I, for one, only carry what I know works based on REAL-LIFE EXPERIENCE.

So, I'll tell ya what, I will certainly place my pry bar over your (feigned) "humility" any day. It will get me into a lot more doors and keep me out of alot more trouble.

I'm not really very humble and I don't care what anyone else carries in their kit. I do care when self proclaimed/self promoting experts use a public forum to deride anyone who DOESN'T carry what they do as being uninformed or stupid.

 

[dougo83]

 

[MrCoffee]

What someone else carries is a place to start with your own kit, nothing more. As I stated before, you kit needs to be built on your own environment, not someone who lives ina different area then you do. An example of this might be something like my extreme cold weather gear. For my area, it makes sense, given how cold it can get in New England, but it was be silly for my friend down in south Florida.

And as I stated before I have a friend who WAS stopped, then detained for the gear he had in his CERT bag (clearly marked). Never went to court, he got a notice in the mail saying the charges were dropped. I even understand that there have been a lot of breakin's in our area over the last year (8 Saturday night alone here where I work). But my honest guess on this story is that my friend either did or said something to provoke the officer. Just a feeling......

But in the case of a real emergency, I have a feeling that most LEO's/First Responders are going to be more then happy to leave people taking care of themselves alone. They will have their hands filled with people that are left without a clue.

This is all a balancing act, all of it. Carry what you think you need, and what works for your area. If you are concerned that something you have might not be legal, find out, and if it is illegal, don't carry it. If you fell you MUST have it, then carry it knowing that you might end up defending yourself in a court of law. It is completely your choice.

Back ON subject. Building your Urban BOB is a pretty open question. I know one guy from another board who carries one of those chain escape ladders in his BOB, because he works on the second floor of a building and doesn't think he might be able to make the fire escape if there is a problem. Me, being more in the rural area, envisioning the challenges one might have is only a best guess.

 

[Don Rearic]

I'm not really very humble and I don't care what anyone else carries in their kit. I do care when self proclaimed/self promoting experts use a public forum to deride anyone who DOESN'T carry what they do as being uninformed or stupid.

I never referred to anyone as "uninformed" or "stupid" because they didn't carry "something."

I KNEW you were trolling originally and called you on it and the proof of that is, you had to get a girlfriend to come in and take your side then you uncapped the rock you were under and slithered out once again.

As far as I'm concerned, "expert" just means you have nothing left to learn, so if you're talking about me, you're barking up the wrong tree and giving me titles that I don't refer to myself as, friend.

Yeah, advise people to snip through chainlink fence in an urban environment during an emergency and this WON'T get you shot by a Guardsman, WHY?

 

[sunshine]

The last few negative posts above kinda prove the point about some individuals being unable to do anything but deride and insult any opposing view point, as well as a pretty clear detachment from reality.

I could respect a statement like;

"I'd rather have a breaching tool and not need it, than need it and not have it."

I could respect that statement, but would still think the practice is pretty silly for a normal person trying to evac a disaster area.

These guys attitude toward disaster survival preparation is kinda like fantasy football. It's obviously an all consuming hobby for them, but their view of themselves has taken on a self important fantasy type role completely outside reality.

And yes...I'm talking about the negative posters directly above.


The OP posed the context of an urban area disaster cutting you off from home and/or needed supplies. I took this as similar to the Northridge quake in Cali where many bridges were damaged or closed cutting thousands off from a way out of a disaster area....demonstrated reality.

In that context, I would think the priority would be to get home to secure family and access emergency supplies. If that was not possible because you were stuck on the wrong side of a bridge and trapped in a metropolitan urban area, what would your plan be, and what would you need to carry it out?

My thinking on this is even if you cannot make it home, you will be motivated to get as close to home as possible...that means walking. I gamed it at a minimum of 30 miles in 24hrs and a probable maximum of 60 miles in 48hrs.
Count on walking...either home, or to an aid station in a stable area, or at a minimum to your best guess at a reliable water source.

Now in this context, pages of lock pick and breaching tools "advice" seems kinda ridiculous...(see fantasy football reference above).

PS...Any LEO or Guardsman coming into contact with any guy carrying a flashlight/lockpics/breaching and assorted ninja tools in a disaster evacuation area is going to view you as part of their job description.

 

[chopchop]

Something to think about that has only been mentioned in passing:

In urban settings, if the public water supply is compromised/contaminated, water is going to become an issue real fast. I would suggest having enough water on hand to get to where you want to go, and have a plan (filter, knowledge of tank locations & how to get to them, etc.) for more.

Also, if there is a major fire/building collapse/explosion, air quality could be a serious issue (think of that cloud of dust from the WTC attack). Having a bandana, hat, or mask as a filter to breathe through could save you. Eye protection sort of goes along with this thought as well.



I'm with the majority of folks here... consider what others are doing, but carry what you want. YMMV.

 

[koyote]

You say;
"In an emergency situation, police officers, even at their most obtuse and power hungry worst, have far more important things to do than go looking through random satchels just because."

Then you say;
"Hell, I even had a state trooper in IL trying to open a can of honey to see if there was drugs inside because I stopped for coffee at 9pm in the wrong town."

To me, those two statements kinda conflict with one another, lol.

Um. Just in case you didn't catch it in context- 2 relevant points I may need to bring to your attention, if possible.

1: a traffic stop is not a disaster situation. Think this through.

2: breaching tools are, and always have been, a part of my auto kit- in this and several other instances my vehicle has been searched without me being questioned or arrested for posession of burglary tools.

This may be a bit diffcult to see in my original response, I understand that. Both points are, however, relevant.

Unless your definition of 'burglary tools' is now limited solely and exclusively to pockpicks?

 

[dougo83]

The last few negative posts above kinda prove the point about some individuals being unable to do anything but deride and insult any opposing view point, as well as a pretty clear detachment from reality.

I could respect a statement like;

"I'd rather have a breaching tool and not need it, than need it and not have it."

I could respect that statement, but would still think the practice is pretty silly for a normal person trying to evac a disaster area.

These guys attitude toward disaster survival preparation is kinda like fantasy football. It's obviously an all consuming hobby for them, but their view of themselves has taken on a self important fantasy type role completely outside reality.

And yes...I'm talking about the negative posters directly above.


The OP posed the context of an urban area disaster cutting you off from home and/or needed supplies. I took this as similar to the Northridge quake in Cali where many bridges were damaged or closed cutting thousands off from a way out of a disaster area....demonstrated reality.

In that context, I would think the priority would be to get home to secure family and access emergency supplies. If that was not possible because you were stuck on the wrong side of a bridge and trapped in a metropolitan urban area, what would your plan be, and what would you need to carry it out?

My thinking on this is even if you cannot make it home, you will be motivated to get as close to home as possible...that means walking. I gamed it at a minimum of 30 miles in 24hrs and a probable maximum of 60 miles in 48hrs.
Count on walking...either home, or to an aid station in a stable area, or at a minimum to your best guess at a reliable water source.

Now in this context, pages of lock pick and breaching tools "advice" seems kinda ridiculous...(see fantasy football reference above).

PS...Any LEO or Guardsman coming into contact with any guy carrying a flashlight/lockpics/breaching and assorted ninja tools in a disaster evacuation area is going to view you as part of their job description.

Perhaps you should save your expertise for something you know about. When Katrina hit, I was in Houston. I went southeast to help out friends and family. I had more than 1 pry bar in the truck as well as multiple other tools designed for breaching. I used to do the VFF thing so I had a Halligan in there as well. I was stopped more than once my Nat'l Guard and local cops. Not once did any of them say a word about the tools in the truck, I even had a cop from Nederland (I think) ask to borrow my bar. Simple tools are not going to get you questioned whether they are in your car or on your person. And if you need to get in somewhere, they are dang handy.

 

[koyote]

The last few negative posts above kinda prove the point about some individuals being unable to do anything but deride and insult any opposing view point, as well as a pretty clear detachment from reality.

I could respect a statement like;

"I'd rather have a breaching tool and not need it, than need it and not have it."

I could respect that statement, but would still think the practice is pretty silly for a normal person trying to evac a disaster area.

These guys attitude toward disaster survival preparation is kinda like fantasy football. It's obviously an all consuming hobby for them, but their view of themselves has taken on a self important fantasy type role completely outside reality.

And yes...I'm talking about the negative posters directly above.


The OP posed the context of an urban area disaster cutting you off from home and/or needed supplies. I took this as similar to the Northridge quake in Cali where many bridges were damaged or closed cutting thousands off from a way out of a disaster area....demonstrated reality.

In that context, I would think the priority would be to get home to secure family and access emergency supplies. If that was not possible because you were stuck on the wrong side of a bridge and trapped in a metropolitan urban area, what would your plan be, and what would you need to carry it out?

My thinking on this is even if you cannot make it home, you will be motivated to get as close to home as possible...that means walking. I gamed it at a minimum of 30 miles in 24hrs and a probable maximum of 60 miles in 48hrs.
Count on walking...either home, or to an aid station in a stable area, or at a minimum to your best guess at a reliable water source.

Now in this context, pages of lock pick and breaching tools "advice" seems kinda ridiculous...(see fantasy football reference above).

PS...Any LEO or Guardsman coming into contact with any guy carrying a flashlight/lockpics/breaching and assorted ninja tools in a disaster evacuation area is going to view you as part of their job description.

There's a few problems in this- one, you seem to have intimate knowledge of every LEO and military person and how they think- enough to be absolute abotu it, but I really don't believe this is the case.

Second, and more importantly, you are speaking in very, very absolute terms. Anyone who disagrees with you is absolutely wrong. This tends to cause people to discount what you say as... well, too absolute. YOu make no consideration for employment, situation, environment, training, membership in groups (such as CERT or ARES)- no consideration for anything. Just. pure. absolutes. Doesn't work.

As I've said before, I don't carry picks, I don't find them to be advantageuous for getting through a door or fence. But I'm not offering this as a rule for others. Something to consider, yes. A rule, no.

 

[hoopster]

Alright, several people commented or emailed me about the bucket cache idea on the previous page. I considered starting a new thread, but this is a really good one and I would like to see it continue on as I feel it could be beneficial to some.

The idea of these bucket caches is to supplement your BOB, EDC, etc or completely replace them. Regardless, it's something that you can place between your work and home, or your work and survival retreat, etc. I used buckets because they are cheap, strong and waterproof, while still being able to open it relatively easily. I've experimented with caching a rifle in pvc tubes, etc. but the tube isn't really reuseable unless you pack sealant, etc. and you need a saw to open it.

When I was stationed in NC I buried a bucket cache on Ft. Bragg that contained basically everything I would need to get started for survival. The idea was basic supplies to get me to the mountains where I could survive longer in unpopulated areas. After that? I don't know, I would have to figure it out, depending on whatever situation forced me to flee.

In that first bucket was: backpack, knife, pocket chainsaw, firestarter kit, signal kit, MREs, hydration bladder, water treatment, trauma kit, tarp and stakes, headlamp and lithium batteries, sportsman's blanket, wool cap, survival book, map, ammo, 550 cord, etc. The idea was basic supplies to get me to the mountains where I could survive longer in unpopulated areas. After that? I don't know, I would have to figure it out, depending on whatever situation forced me to flee.

I then buried another bucket in the Uwharrie Mountains that contained more food, more first aid, more batteries, another knife, etc.

Then I buried another one in the Blue Ridge Mountains in NC (this is a long haul from the Uwharrie's), and another one in the mountains in Kentucky and another in Virginia so that I would have something whether I decided to go north or further west.

These buckets were buried in places that I visited often and knew well so I could check on them and I would have no problems finding them.

Are any of the buckets still there?

 

[jw2n]

What the hell is going on here guys! This thread has gone right down the tubes.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think all of the ideas that everyone is going to be "X, Y and Z" during times of crisis are totally exaggerated. There are many things that could be considered "burglary tools" under a variety of different circumstances. The whole idea that if you carry some type of Locksmith tool or tools you are going to be arrested but it would be "ok" to cut through a chain link fence with a multi-tool in the same type of emergency and this would not be met with some type of response from someone in a position of authority that witnessed that is more than wishful thinking, it's nonsense.

In a world of cheap metal sunglasses, car antennas and windshield wipers and multi-tools, you don't necessarily have to carry dedicated tools (except some type of multi-tool), but you do have to have the knowledge and the people in this thread who are trying to suppress knowledge are ignoring that. I don't care really. But if good people want to know things, I think they should seek that information out.

One person's agenda was clear in this thread last week. It just took a little bit of time and a compadre to bring it back to the surface.

 

[Don Rearic]

Man, there must be a contest going on to figure out who can parse my words the best to make me continue to appear the bad guy.

 

[dougo83]

I punched a kitten in the throat

Don! Really?!?!

 

[mdauben]

3: In an emergency situation, police officers, even at their most obtuse and power hungry worst, have far more important things to do than go looking through random satchels just because.

Yeah, like searching for looters with burglery tools... oh, wait!

Directly referencing the idea that an emergency kit in a vehicle will get you arrested- I have always carried a large prybar, shovel, axe, and fencing pliers in my vehicles. Always. They are not and never have been considered burglary tools, and I have been stopped and searched on numerous occasions.

Were you stopped in New Orleans during the aftermath of Katrina? Were you stopped in Los Angeles during the 1992 riots or after the Northridge earthquake? The response of LEOs or National Guard could be quite different in such situations that during a day-to-day traffic stop. In a real emergency, martial law would not be supprising.

I guess I could see having boltcutters to get my car through locked gates in an emergency, but while walking or even biking, I just don't see the compelling need for being equipped to break into buildings, when I am trying to get out of the city, or at least back to my home. I just think bolt cutters, pry bars, and demolition tools may have a place in a car kit, but they are too heavy and bulky for a pack you may be carrying for miles or even days.