Urban B.O.B.

[koyote]

Originally Posted by koyote :
3: In an emergency situation, police officers, even at their most obtuse and power hungry worst, have far more important things to do than go looking through random satchels just because.

Yeah, like searching for looters with burglery tools... oh, wait!

Riiiiiight. Looters, are not generally people with small or medium BOBs trying to GET somewhere. I really...find myself unable to respond to this politely. You've just equated looters (generally travel in bands, almost always have some sort of cart or vehicle, do NOT pick locks, go for low hanging fruit, etc) with random bag searches of citizens.

Were you stopped in New Orleans during the aftermath of Katrina? Were you stopped in Los Angeles during the 1992 riots or after the Northridge earthquake? The response of LEOs or National Guard could be quite different in such situations that during a day-to-day traffic stop. In a real emergency, martial law would not be supprising.

read post number 113 in this thread. Directly references Katrina.



There appears to be an issue in the thread with equating one type of activity (random bag searches, routine traffic stops) with another (guarding against looters, disaster policing) - it is consistent enough that it may actually be topical to the discussion.

In a disaster situation, stuck in a urban place and needing to get out for whatever reason - say return to family- what are people's ideas, experiences, and attitudes towards law enforcement? There seems to be a strong opinion that everyone, regardless of clothing, purpose, or attitude, is going to be strip searched and detained on any pretext by a police and or national guard force that is ...what? bored? underworked? NOT DEALING with the emergency?

I'm not exactly the most trusting of police officers' use of authority, and in general will go out of my way to avoid them so as to not spend more pointless time being profiled for having long/short hair and being white and in my 30s. Or whatever the profile is this evening. But I'm reasonable- I've known and worked with police officers in emergencies as an ARES operator, and they really aren't out in a county wide flood and power outage trying to find people to profile just for fun.

 

[mdauben]

Riiiiiight. Looters, are not generally people with small or medium BOBs trying to GET somewhere. I really...find myself unable to respond to this politely.

Okay, I admit my first comment might have been a bit... condesending, but I honestly think you are wrong to assume the cops are going to know the good guys from the bad guys during a disaster. I just don't think you can dismiss the possibility that possessing what an LEO might see as "burglery tools" in an emergency situation does not have the potential to cause you more trouble than they could get you out of.

Maybe the LEO who has been chasing looters and vandals all night will just wave on the guy with a pack full of something on his back, but maybe not. He might not be looking for prybars and lock picks in your BOB but he might just want to know if you've got any stolen property, guns or some other "contraban" in that pack. And certainly there is no reason to carry these tools if you don't foresee using them, and if an LEO or National Guardsman catches you in a disaster zone trying to break into a locked building I know damn well they are not going to just walk on by because they have "more important" things to do.

 

[koyote]

mike- I hear ya. this all boils down to camolauge, attitude, and appearance. I have my ARES badge and HT and what all. locally I am good since I have worked with the city and county LEOs.

definitely stu to consider, but in general if you have a purpose and look like a decent cit you will pass.

 

[sunshine]

Originally Posted by koyote :

Riiiiiight. Looters, are not generally people with small or medium BOBs trying to GET somewhere. I really...find myself unable to respond to this politely. You've just equated looters (generally travel in bands, almost always have some sort of cart or vehicle, do NOT pick locks, go for low hanging fruit, etc) with random bag searches of citizens.

And by the same logic, normal citizens trapped in an urban disaster area are not generally going to carry tools to pick locks and force entry into buildings...is that really too unreasonable to comprehend?

Unless life is at immediate risk, or at the direct direct request of the owner, forcing entry into any structure is felony burglary...It's that simple.

Can we agree on that?

At no time was any of this directed at rescue personnel...we were talking about normal people trapped in an urban area.

There are industrial areas all over the country that encompass vast areas. Cutting a fence (misdemeanor vandalism) in an emergency to pass through (misdemeanor trespass) to avoid a dangerous area or save time in an emergency is a totally different context than the technical act of felony burglary, especially combined with the premeditated act of carrying the tools to carry it out, which implies premeditated intent.

My problem was with members that some may regard as knowledgeable enough to listen to and trust putting normal people at serious risk advocating this type of gear and behavior.

It is seriously irresponsible...I don't understand how you can't see that.

 

[Don Rearic]

Yeah, like searching for looters with burglery tools... oh, wait!

If you can't spell it, such a common word, perhaps you should refrain from commenting about it. Yes, I have been called a "spelling nazi" before, by stupid people.

Were you stopped in New Orleans during the aftermath of Katrina?

By NOPD or National Guard? I mean, if it was NOPD, they might ask to borrow your handy-dandy prybar, they were doing enough looting themselves. Saw it on the T.V.

Were you stopped in Los Angeles during the 1992 riots or after the Northridge earthquake? The response of LEOs or National Guard could be quite different in such situations that during a day-to-day traffic stop. In a real emergency, martial law would not be supprising.

The only reason, in my view, to utilize these tools is to hole up prior to picking your time to escape, or ecaping outright.

I guess I could see having boltcutters to get my car through locked gates in an emergency, but while walking or even biking, I just don't see the compelling need for being equipped to break into buildings, when I am trying to get out of the city, or at least back to my home. I just think bolt cutters, pry bars, and demolition tools may have a place in a car kit, but they are too heavy and bulky for a pack you may be carrying for miles or even days.

I'm not interested in bolt cutters which are bulky, heavy and overrated in my opinion.

 

[Don Rearic]

Unless life is at immediate risk, or at the direct direct request of the owner, forcing entry into any structure is felony burglary...It's that simple.

Can we agree on that?

Absolutely, I'm not talking about stealing LCD TVs, we are talking about danger. If I need shelter, I am going to obtain it. If I have to get out, I am going to do it. THAT is ALL that was being discussed in this thread.

 

[C_Kyle]

After reading through all this again, I think all the posts assume one thing or another. I'll say what I'm assuming is that we're not planning on being criminals, just trying to survive and escape some sort of major disaster. I'm also assuming that we're not a bunch of retards who'll just listen to everything that everyone says and assume it's gospel. I'm assuming that we'll make our own decisions about gear and action based on our own needs.

Some are assuming that others will blindly follow the advice that some have given. Some assume that authorities will automatically assume you're up to no good with your burglary kit. Others assume that authorities will automatically see you as a non-threat for whatever reason.

While I find the lock picking tools interesting, they'll not be part of my kit because I don't know how to and don't plan to ever use them. I also would not want to be detained while trying to E&E, and therefor, need to appear as a non-threat.

I think I was the first person to suggest that all this stuff sounds like a burglary kit. My own personal E&E plan does not include breaking into buildings. Cutting a chain-link fence...maybe, if I cannot go around or climb over.

I would rather take a Leave No Trace approach to E&E. Maybe that comes from a military background, or just a natural desire to be ghost-like anonymous.

Something else that I've realized is that my ideas are tailored to me. I'm single. I'm in decent shape. I have a mindset of "I will do this" regardless of whether it seems possible or not. These things are what shape my ideal reaction to a disaster situation into E&E to a known safe location.

In reality, it's not just me alone. I have a cat, and that totally changes everything. I'm not leaving the cat, so what do I do? Do I stick him in one of those Kelty kid carriers, and wear my gear pack on my chest? Do I strap the cat carrier to my bicycle? The cat is 26lbs. My 15-20lbs E&E kit has now become 50-60lbs. Can I realistically move 20 miles a day like this? Will I loose the cat or not be able to care for him while on the move? I'd freak out; it would be like when Tom Hanks lost Wilson.

The paragraph above seems a little silly. A dog can walk on its own along side you; but a cat? I put a harness on my huge cat and he falls over like he's been shot and I have to drag him around. Silly as it seems, this Urban BOB thread has had me thinking about this stuff, and I am thankful for it.

 

[mdauben]

If you can't spell it, such a common word, perhaps you should refrain from commenting about it. Yes, I have been called a "spelling nazi" before, by stupid people.

And if you can't refrain from ad hominem attacks, maybe you should not comment either. :jerkit:

Stooping to criticizing the spelling of someone who disagrees with your opinion is the act of someone who cannot logically defend their own viewpoint, who is pathetically immature, or who is just a total <insert insult of your choice>.

 

[Don Rearic]

And if you can't refrain from ad hominem attacks, maybe you should not comment either. :jerkit:

Stooping to criticizing the spelling of someone who disagrees with your opinion is the act of someone who cannot logically defend their own viewpoint, who is pathetically immature, or who is just a total <insert insult of your choice>.

I am pathetically able to defend my viewpoint because I am pathetically able to spell. Come on now, think about it, when you start getting criticized, wouldn't you also look at who is throwing rocks at you? I'm tired of being nitpicked by people that don't even care enough about what they're saying to spell "burglary" correctly. You can call it whatever you want, I bet you looked in the damned dictionary this morning or at least used spell check before you posted this drivel. Jerk yourself off now with an emoticon.

 

[Don Rearic]

After reading through all this again, I think all the posts assume one thing or another. I'll say what I'm assuming is that we're not planning on being criminals, just trying to survive and escape some sort of major disaster. I'm also assuming that we're not a bunch of retards who'll just listen to everything that everyone says and assume it's gospel. I'm assuming that we'll make our own decisions about gear and action based on our own needs.

Some are assuming that others will blindly follow the advice that some have given. Some assume that authorities will automatically assume you're up to no good with your burglary kit. Others assume that authorities will automatically see you as a non-threat for whatever reason.

I would say that you have an interesting list of assumptions!

While a few people got their drawers in a painful knot under their bag, a lot of interesting stuff goes by. It's really easy to see how sheep can put their head to the ground and start bleating about, "Baa-baa, that's illegal...baa-baa...must not be doing that...baa-baa..." I watched NOPD loot stores during Katrina news coverage. When everything is being busted apart by looters and police who are looting as well...uh...why would you need these tools? People are not thinking they are just having a knee-jerk response to the appearance of having something for theft. The fact of the matter is, you don't need these tools to steal stuff, there will be plenty of windows knocked out, etc., etc., ad infinitum, in those situations.

Furthermore, if you wanted to hole up for shelter, the last place you want to enter is a Nieman Marcus or some high-dollar place that is likely to be targeted by LOOTERS. But because of the tools being discussed, some people automatically assume that this is going to be about theft NO MATTER WHAT.

While I find the lock picking tools interesting, they'll not be part of my kit because I don't know how to and don't plan to ever use them. I also would not want to be detained while trying to E&E, and therefor, need to appear as a non-threat.

I think I was the first person to suggest that all this stuff sounds like a burglary kit. My own personal E&E plan does not include breaking into buildings. Cutting a chain-link fence...maybe, if I cannot go around or climb over.

I think a lot of people that are going to go out and purchase these tools are never going to practice with them. That's just my opinion. It's only about 5 to 10% of the people that actually go out and buy the tools that will ever really learn to use them. Of those people, half of them will embrace some idea or another that will limit the effective use of them in some way.

Every person has to make their own threat assessment and it appears as though you have made an accurate one. I am not sitting here and telling you, "You're stupid because you're not planning for this..." as has been suggested by someone taking a potshot at me earlier.

I would rather take a Leave No Trace approach to E&E. Maybe that comes from a military background, or just a natural desire to be ghost-like anonymous.

I understand and that's why I don't necessarily think that running around and cutting this and prying that is the way to go. That's also not a point of discussion with me in this thread, either. Other people are bringing in the bolt cutters and heavy duty prying tools, etc. A couple simple, small, prying tools are a good idea...

In reality, it's not just me alone. I have a cat, and that totally changes everything. I'm not leaving the cat, so what do I do? Do I stick him in one of those Kelty kid carriers, and wear my gear pack on my chest? Do I strap the cat carrier to my bicycle? The cat is 26lbs. My 15-20lbs E&E kit has now become 50-60lbs. Can I realistically move 20 miles a day like this? Will I loose the cat or not be able to care for him while on the move? I'd freak out; it would be like when Tom Hanks lost Wilson.

I understand that you don't want to leave Catzilla behind. Twenty-six pounds! For the love of god.

The paragraph above seems a little silly. A dog can walk on its own along side you; but a cat? I put a harness on my huge cat and he falls over like he's been shot and I have to drag him around. Silly as it seems, this Urban BOB thread has had me thinking about this stuff, and I am thankful for it.

Pretty funny, but you're honest!

 

[mdauben]

I am pathetically able to defend my viewpoint because I am pathetically able to spell.

You are also able to portray yourself as a real ass on the internet. Have fun with "your" thread, I'm done wasting my time here.

 

[Don Rearic]

You are also able to portray yourself as a real ass on the internet. Have fun with "your" thread, I'm done wasting my time here.

Yes, I am an ass when I defend my position and everyone else is the paragon of virtue for attacking me without naming me so they can then deny they attacked me to begin with.

It's not "my" thread but I'll be damned if I am going to sit back and let other people make assumptions and idiotic statements about what it is that I am talking about. I'm sorry you feel as though you wasted your time for whatever reason. I hope the rest of your day is great and you have a wonderful weekend. Don't be a hater.

Edited to add, one of the other trolls is reading the thread. Prepare to repel boarders. Good grief.

 

[chopchop]

Cool it guys. There is no need for the hostility in some of the posts. Just make your point and cut out the sniping. We don't need any BF banhammers flying through here.


Now back to the thread...


I can't stop picturing earthquake debris everywhere... and Wulf running down the street dragging his big fat cat along behind him! Sorry, man. That picture is just too funny!

 

[k_estela]

Enough with the personal attacks guys. Next person who attacks WILL get an infraction. Am I clear?

 

[sunshine]

While a few people got their drawers in a painful knot under their bag, a lot of interesting stuff goes by. It's really easy to see how sheep can put their head to the ground and start bleating about, "Baa-baa, that's illegal...baa-baa...must not be doing that...baa-baa..." I watched NOPD loot stores during Katrina news coverage. When everything is being busted apart by looters and police who are looting as well...uh...why would you need these tools? People are not thinking they are just having a knee-jerk response to the appearance of having something for theft. The fact of the matter is, you don't need these tools to steal stuff, there will be plenty of windows knocked out, etc., etc., ad infinitum, in those situations.

Until now, I really was not sure if you were ignorant, or just a total ass.
It's clear to me now you are both. Just because you "need" shelter or there is a general "atmosphere of danger" does not bestow on you the right to force entry into someone's property. Immediate risk of death or serious bodily injury is the standard. It is a very finite standard.

Apparently you are above all that???...Rule of Law...Private Property...Common Decency...etc....

Clouded by your hero ninja fantasy, you fail to see you are the problem child in an emergency.

FYI;

Felony burglary is the entry into a structure you are not authorized to enter.
Theft is not a requirement for conviction, neither is "breaking" in.

Your tool...weather a lock pick, or a wiggy bar, or a screwdriver is another felony. Using it is not required for a conviction, possession is enough.

If you happen to be in possession of a firearm or prohibited knife/weapon at the time, that is another felony.

Most states have a 3 strike law now, so your little survival plan just exposed you, and anyone with you, to life in prison.

You are a moron.


Mod...My last post in this thread. Infraction accepted. Had to be said.

 

[k_estela]

Infraction incomming. Should I up the ante to banning? Follow rules or disregard and say good bye if you can't respect the forum.

 

[Don Rearic]

Why don't you remove his insults and assumptions on my character and simply ban him? I have been polite in this thread and held out long enough. This sort of behavior exists because it is tolerated. If his insults and everything else have to stay, please ban him. If not, please edit his post to remove it or the infraction against him is meaningless.

 

[C_Kyle]

Infraction incomming. Should I up the ante to banning? Follow rules or disregard and say good bye if you can't respect the forum.

Yes, up the ante. This was a decent and interesting thread; maybe we can get it back on track.

I'll post again when I think of a solution for transporting Catzilla 20+ miles per day. Maybe a Radio Flyer wagon.

 

[Don Rearic]

I'm simply tickled that you have embraced "Catzilla." Big cat!

 

[Don Rearic]

Ed,

How on earth can you give me an infraction for telling someone to use a Bladeforums emoticon that depicts masturbation? I didn't include this option in the software. Did you really have to search that hard to give me an infraction as well? You're simply unfair as always. Have a nice day.:thumbdn: