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Using a Jig for Bench Stones
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
Ah that would be me
(ken123) I believe this is my first post here. I've come up with yet another device 'jig' or 'gizmo' that you might find interesting. I enjoy hand sharpening, but this allows me an even higher degree of precision.http://www.kenss.com/knifesharpeningdevice.html
and here's a sample edge:
Videos demonstrating the use of the device
The first three videos demonstrate sharpening a CCK 1101, which is a 240 x 125 mm cleaver, with ease, using successively finer grits going from a 120 grit DMT plate up to a Shapton GlassStone 8000 grit stone. This device can handle even larger knives such as the machete demonstrated in the final video.
Cleaver sharpening videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB0pNsI1mZY&a mp;fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLggLhpQeCI&a mp;fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRMOW9fEmVs&a mp;fea...
Machette sharpening video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IF-wbWN604&a mp;fea...
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Ken
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2007
- Messages
- 1,068
And you can use your waterstones annd DMT plates with it
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Ken
Just warning you, Ken- this is a tough thread for jigs!
I'm still gonna buy the Gizmo (please don't make me call it the PSD!
). I suspect some guys here are gonna say you can't sharpen freehand because you've created the PSD. Yeah, it doesn't make sense- welcome to BF!
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And you can use your waterstones annd DMT plates with it
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Ken
Oops, where are my manners.
Welcome to BF, Ken! I suspect you've forgotten more about sharpening than some of us have ever known. This place could use you wisdom, and I'm glad to see you here.
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Your heart seems to be in the right place, and I'm truly sorry if I was overly zealous in rebuking you. I too am a hardcore sharpening junkie, and use a variety of methods to acheive the task. I enjoy freehand sharpening, and it's indeed "Zen-like".
But I come back to my Dad; one eye, a bum shoulder, and a host of other ills. He isn't too steady and his eye isn't that great. It's an extravagent expection for him to freehand with the coordination that a some of you can. Luckily for him, as his body starts to fail he still has a lifetime's worth of experience on tap. He uses a jig not as a substitute for skill but to compensate for reduced physical abilities. I was the creator of the original "blueprint" of the vertical jig he's describing. A guy like you, probably in your prime, doesn't need it, but if it extends the years that my dad can sharpen his own knives than I hope it doesn't offend your sensibilities. He's a great guy; I think he deserves to have his knives sharp, even if he's almost ready for the glue factory!
Your heart is in the right place, Bill. I didn't mean any offence- just a little protective of the "Old Man."
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You can read a long time and you won't find me being critical of hand sharpening knives. Whatever works for you is just fine with me. However I don't really think that MOST people have adequate hand sharpening skills. I know more people who can not sharpen a knife by hand than those who can. And I mean every time and without damaging a good knife.
Therefore if using a jig makes you a better hand at sharpening then go for it. The world may be better off if we all rode horses again and did away with all the modern conveniences, but who want to do that? Besides ME.
Therefore if using a jig makes you a better hand at sharpening then go for it. The world may be better off if we all rode horses again and did away with all the modern conveniences, but who want to do that? Besides ME.
Personally, I think learning to freehand is a great skill to learn, but then again, I think every one should know how to glass blow, use a lathe and how to weld (among other things)....call me a renaissance-man-wannabe. But fact is, that most people will have an easier time with jigs and there is really nothing wrong with that. No carpenter is going to give up his planer even though in principle you could achieve the same with a spokeshave if you had a REALLY steady hand, and very few people will be willing to give up their Gillette 10000 with 10 blades (or what the current number is) in favor of a straight razor. Finally, a purist consequently opposed to jigs should also abstain from ESP and ABS and other "jig type" modern safty conveniences in their car and learn how to properly manually steer and break under difficult circumstances, ....the list of "jigs" we are using on a daily basis is long and most of them we accept without a second thought. So why should a sharpening jig be different.
I disagree very much though with the concept that a beginner would be scared away with jig type conveniences. I simply don't think it is true that the average beginner with no grandfather to teach them will have more success on "the right $20 stone" than with the Sharpmaker for example. In fact I couldn't even name a single "right stone for $20". Most stones in that price range are so coarse that any beginner will have a hell of a time getting a shaving edge on them, and the finer stones will frustrate any beginner who is trying to sharpen a knife that fairly far gone, not to mention that those finer stones are without exception far more expensive than $20, which in turn makes a Sharpmaker for example very competitively priced.
I disagree very much though with the concept that a beginner would be scared away with jig type conveniences. I simply don't think it is true that the average beginner with no grandfather to teach them will have more success on "the right $20 stone" than with the Sharpmaker for example. In fact I couldn't even name a single "right stone for $20". Most stones in that price range are so coarse that any beginner will have a hell of a time getting a shaving edge on them, and the finer stones will frustrate any beginner who is trying to sharpen a knife that fairly far gone, not to mention that those finer stones are without exception far more expensive than $20, which in turn makes a Sharpmaker for example very competitively priced.
Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- 12,646
An India stone should run around $20, and would sharpen most any knife, as would a couple of sheets of wet/dry sandpaper taped to a flat surface.
To me-not being able to hand sharpen is like not knowing how to gas up your car.
And I agree- most people can't sharpen. But most people could learn if they didn't think it was a mysterious lost art. I like the fact that jigs keep people from ruining blades, though.
Bill
To me-not being able to hand sharpen is like not knowing how to gas up your car.
And I agree- most people can't sharpen. But most people could learn if they didn't think it was a mysterious lost art. I like the fact that jigs keep people from ruining blades, though.
Bill
That's what I was thinking of as well, and I find it rather difficult to get a really good edge on an India stone, especially without subsequent stropping.
Well, learning how to gas up a car takes how long to learn? 1 min, maybe? And after that there is no room for improvement, there is really no learning curve, is there? Learning how to sharpen takes...weeks of practice....and you can improve over years. So hardly comparable. In fact I think the comparison with a planar is rather fitting. After all, it is essentially the same process.
Really, with all respect, I think sometimes you "older guys"
) ), underestimate how difficult it really is for a beginner to learn how to sharpen when you don't have someone like a grandpa to show you and you don't learn it from childhood on.
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I'm with me2 on there not being much of a difference, since you have to hold a blade at a steady angle, 0, 90, something. Parallel to the ground or at some other angle, a stone in a fixed position is a stone in a fixed position, imo.
No one really taught me to sharpen. I mean, I watched my dad, but there wasn't really any sort of 'class' about it, and he didn't do it in a particular way that was memorable. He'd put the stone on a table, hold it in his hand, use a file. Same random stuff I do today, and there's nothing to any particular method, just hold the angle. I mostly just sat down with a combo SiC stone as old as me (high school) and worked on my tinker til it could shave. It wasn't easy, the stones were cheap hardware store affairs with undulating surfaces that broke down from too much oiling, but that just got me to focus more.
I used the lansky, edgepro, and sharpmaker, and just figured it was faster to freehand. No setup/breakdown, no measuring, no markers. I find it a bit more versatile to just be able to use 1/2-3" wide stones, files, 'sharpening steels', etc. Then you can sharpen standing, sitting, reclining, maybe even in the dark (something to try before bed
). I've had to 'field' sharpen when edges get damaged working around manmade construction - glass, metal, tip breakage, and such.
Jigs are very necessary for testing/experimenting. Sometimes I balk at the price of some systems or stones, but then I think about how much I pay for the things I sharpen
No one really taught me to sharpen. I mean, I watched my dad, but there wasn't really any sort of 'class' about it, and he didn't do it in a particular way that was memorable. He'd put the stone on a table, hold it in his hand, use a file. Same random stuff I do today, and there's nothing to any particular method, just hold the angle. I mostly just sat down with a combo SiC stone as old as me (high school) and worked on my tinker til it could shave. It wasn't easy, the stones were cheap hardware store affairs with undulating surfaces that broke down from too much oiling, but that just got me to focus more.
I used the lansky, edgepro, and sharpmaker, and just figured it was faster to freehand. No setup/breakdown, no measuring, no markers. I find it a bit more versatile to just be able to use 1/2-3" wide stones, files, 'sharpening steels', etc. Then you can sharpen standing, sitting, reclining, maybe even in the dark (something to try before bed
). I've had to 'field' sharpen when edges get damaged working around manmade construction - glass, metal, tip breakage, and such.Jigs are very necessary for testing/experimenting. Sometimes I balk at the price of some systems or stones, but then I think about how much I pay for the things I sharpen
Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 12,646
OK-
Older guy to all you young guys-
Get a stone. Place edge of knife on stone at the angle you want. Push or pull blade across stone while holding that angle. Turn knife over and do the same thing. Repeat until the two angles meet. Let the stone do the work. Practice on cheap knives. It's not rocket science. There are many things that will help-marker pens on the edge, rebeveling, premium stones, etc.- but practice is the most important thing. After a while, you will develop muscle memory and an understanding of edge geometry.
Unless you have some sort of physical handicap that precludes doing the above, learning how to hand sharpen is easy. Then you can just get your whetstone, and sharpen your knife. No setup, and the satisfaction of knowing you can sharpen.
Bill
Older guy to all you young guys-
Get a stone. Place edge of knife on stone at the angle you want. Push or pull blade across stone while holding that angle. Turn knife over and do the same thing. Repeat until the two angles meet. Let the stone do the work. Practice on cheap knives. It's not rocket science. There are many things that will help-marker pens on the edge, rebeveling, premium stones, etc.- but practice is the most important thing. After a while, you will develop muscle memory and an understanding of edge geometry.
Unless you have some sort of physical handicap that precludes doing the above, learning how to hand sharpen is easy. Then you can just get your whetstone, and sharpen your knife. No setup, and the satisfaction of knowing you can sharpen.
Bill
You sure don't need a $ 20 stone. You can learn on a 2 sided coarse/fine stone that is less than $10 at almost any hardware store, and more like $5 at a good hardware store. You also don't need to hold a consistent angle in fact I think you get a better edge if you don't hold a consistent angle. The biggest problem for people that are learning to sharpen is they don't grind enough forming an edge with the coarse stone. It takes time to grind in an edge. Jigs are fine for learning because you learn to grind in an edge without worrying about the angle. The truth is you don't need that consistent angle to get a sharp edge. Try free hand grinding an edge on a cheap knife with a coarse stone until you raise a burr on both sides it really is easy to do. Then go slow and remove the burr and bingo you just sharpened a knife free hand. Now after you have done that and learned to sharpen you can now improve by making the edges look good, play with different angles and polish/grits. Btw you need to learn how to use the jig before you get a great edge on those things also. Personally I like to learn how to sharpen with everything/anything. And really once you do learn how to get a good edge you really can do it with just about anything. Btw I know a blind guy with bad hands and he can get an edge as sharp as anyone with just a coarse and fine stone.
Ken that is too cool. Good to see you over here also.
Ken that is too cool. Good to see you over here also.
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I'd highly advise anyone interested in freehand sharpening to buy Dave Martell's 2 DVD set "The Art of Knife Sharpening." After one viewing my ability to freehand improved dramatically. I honestly believe for a guy starting out it could take years of the time it takes to get good.
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Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 12,646
I alternate, but it probably doesn't matter. I also sharpen edge-trailing. I don't rely on a burr-but that's just me.
And my jobs look as pretty as any done on a jig.
Come on guys, TRY it!
Using jigs is probably a good way to understand how sharpening is done.
Bill
And my jobs look as pretty as any done on a jig.
Come on guys, TRY it!
Using jigs is probably a good way to understand how sharpening is done.
Bill
Rob / Db et al, thanks for the generous welcome. I thought I'd drop into the deep end of the pool here in this thread to have some challenging discussions to test my ideas and yours (this group's).
I like freehand sharpening. And I like to get good at it. Really good at it. And I even like to make edges that exceed the minimum requirements for a task. My idea of a good session is to make a memorable edge and exceed what I've already done. And learn something new in the process.
I've also spent a great deal of time studying hand movement and human movement in general, specifically 12 years of hand surgery research and another 12 years studying disorders of human movement, particularly tremor, but other ones as well. I've sharpened microsurgical instrumentation under microscopes and my interests in using my hands goes back to my grandfather and father who at one time in their life, built wooden display cases for department stores. I still have some of their tools. And a broken dished stone too.
I've found that one learns best by following the idea of 'see one, do one, teach one' or in this case study other sharpeners, learn to sharpen and then teach it. In this case I decided to teach a device rather than a person. BUT I had to have something to teach it first, so I still feel that hand sharpening skills are a great asset. I felt that I as a human have limitations and to further improve my sharpening, I wanted to remove or limit them to go to the next level. My conception of my 'gizmo' was to be able to make something that could exceed my limitations. It only secondarily was built for 'beginners', although it will make a beginner excel much more quickly, it will make an expert willing to use it to it's advantage go beyond his current capabilities. I know this is arrogant, but so be it. We probably all have a sense of pride in our skills or we wouldn't be in this discussion. I doubt any hand sharpener could produce an edge angle at any angle desired accurate to a tenth of a degree over the entire length of the blade going through a series of stones from a DMT xxcoarse to a 16000 grit GlassStone and beyond without a missed stroke. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen a human capable of this yet and the underlying anatomy and physiology involved make me doubt I will.
To me it's hard to maintain perfect angular consistency and it's easy to BELIEVE you are. A 4 degree bevel accurate to 0.1 degrees is beyond my capabilities freehand. Do you need this much precision? Probably not, but the better question is - 'if you could have this higher level of precision and it took less work and concentration and stress and it was repeatable would it be interesting?
I also wanted to build a device that would let me use my freehand skills, not restrict them. No motors, no restrictions except those I chose. Over time, I'll find ways to improve it but, as it stands, it is quite capable.
In a way, I think of it like a fully automated camera, that allows an amateur photographer to take good pictures or an expert to spend more time composing his shots or even catching the shot at all. But I wanted an automatic camera that could be run like a manual one and allow a pro to squeeze every bit of performance out of his tools (or stones in this case) he can, letting the automated features get out of his way when required.
Bill, FWIW, I'm not a big fan of big honkng burrs either and tend to prefer edge trailing especially for my finer stones and sub micron grits, but that's another story or two.
OK, so perhaps this is a challenging stance out of the gate here, but it should lead to a fun discussion.
Thanks again for the Welcome!
---
Ken
I like freehand sharpening. And I like to get good at it. Really good at it. And I even like to make edges that exceed the minimum requirements for a task. My idea of a good session is to make a memorable edge and exceed what I've already done. And learn something new in the process.
I've also spent a great deal of time studying hand movement and human movement in general, specifically 12 years of hand surgery research and another 12 years studying disorders of human movement, particularly tremor, but other ones as well. I've sharpened microsurgical instrumentation under microscopes and my interests in using my hands goes back to my grandfather and father who at one time in their life, built wooden display cases for department stores. I still have some of their tools. And a broken dished stone too.
I've found that one learns best by following the idea of 'see one, do one, teach one' or in this case study other sharpeners, learn to sharpen and then teach it. In this case I decided to teach a device rather than a person. BUT I had to have something to teach it first, so I still feel that hand sharpening skills are a great asset. I felt that I as a human have limitations and to further improve my sharpening, I wanted to remove or limit them to go to the next level. My conception of my 'gizmo' was to be able to make something that could exceed my limitations. It only secondarily was built for 'beginners', although it will make a beginner excel much more quickly, it will make an expert willing to use it to it's advantage go beyond his current capabilities. I know this is arrogant, but so be it. We probably all have a sense of pride in our skills or we wouldn't be in this discussion. I doubt any hand sharpener could produce an edge angle at any angle desired accurate to a tenth of a degree over the entire length of the blade going through a series of stones from a DMT xxcoarse to a 16000 grit GlassStone and beyond without a missed stroke. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen a human capable of this yet and the underlying anatomy and physiology involved make me doubt I will.
To me it's hard to maintain perfect angular consistency and it's easy to BELIEVE you are. A 4 degree bevel accurate to 0.1 degrees is beyond my capabilities freehand. Do you need this much precision? Probably not, but the better question is - 'if you could have this higher level of precision and it took less work and concentration and stress and it was repeatable would it be interesting?
I also wanted to build a device that would let me use my freehand skills, not restrict them. No motors, no restrictions except those I chose. Over time, I'll find ways to improve it but, as it stands, it is quite capable.
In a way, I think of it like a fully automated camera, that allows an amateur photographer to take good pictures or an expert to spend more time composing his shots or even catching the shot at all. But I wanted an automatic camera that could be run like a manual one and allow a pro to squeeze every bit of performance out of his tools (or stones in this case) he can, letting the automated features get out of his way when required.
Bill, FWIW, I'm not a big fan of big honkng burrs either and tend to prefer edge trailing especially for my finer stones and sub micron grits, but that's another story or two.
OK, so perhaps this is a challenging stance out of the gate here, but it should lead to a fun discussion.
Thanks again for the Welcome!
---
Ken