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Using a Jig for Bench Stones
- Thread starter me2
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My hat's off to folks who are good free hand sharpeners, and those who are talented enough to make their own jigs.
I don't think it's easy to learn freehand unless you can watch someone who is good and can answer your questions. I didn't have that, and languished for years. I finally bucked up and got an Edgepro. My very first sharpening with it gave me perfect bevels, and taught me what sharp should be. After doing probably 100 knives on it, I found out that I was a *much* better freehand sharpener, as I now knew what the results should be. I'm now pretty good at freehanding, and really good with my Edgepro.
I guess I don't see it as an either-or. I think they both complement each other.
I don't think it's easy to learn freehand unless you can watch someone who is good and can answer your questions. I didn't have that, and languished for years. I finally bucked up and got an Edgepro. My very first sharpening with it gave me perfect bevels, and taught me what sharp should be. After doing probably 100 knives on it, I found out that I was a *much* better freehand sharpener, as I now knew what the results should be. I'm now pretty good at freehanding, and really good with my Edgepro.
I guess I don't see it as an either-or. I think they both complement each other.
That is exactly the experience I had, only that it was for me the Sharpmaker. Before I got the Sharpmaker, I couldn't get a really good edge on my waterstones. In particular, it taught me that it shouldn't take half-an-hour to get a sharp edge. If you do it right, it shouldn't and doesn't take more that a few strokes per grit level. Now I am back to waterstones and can get an even better edge on them freehanding than on the Sharpmaker, which I still use whenever I need a very satisfactory edge quickly.
The other big help was Murray Carter's DVD. It is atrociously edited, but you get to watch an expert at sharpening and it is a huge help getting to watch how it should be done.
Any tips you could give for water stones? I only have an 800 grit, and use it in place of my coarse India before going to my Sharpmaker. I once, and only once, got an edge straight from the 800 that would whittle hair. I have not been able to repeat this, and if I could do so easily, then most of my other sharpening gear (coarse/fine India, Sharpmaker, belt sander) would be obsolete. Also, I have trouble with knives taking material off the water stone on the corners where starting at the heel of the edge. Is there any way to prevent this?
Bill, with all due respect (and alot is due), using a jig as described in this thread IS sharpening freehand. The ONLY difference between this and laying the stone flat on the bench is the angle of the user... or maybe I should say the perpendicularity of attack by the user.
Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Stretch
You know, I never even thought about that!
You know, I never even thought about that!
It is purely by accident that I ever became a free hand sharpener. I thought for a long time that I was one of those who just didn’t have the skill to sharpen, nor could I hold a consistent angle. I relied on a system for all my sharpening for years. One day I took a knife with an uneven grind and thought I’d try and even it out with an old coarse stone I had. Long story short I sharpened that knife free hand and was amazed at how easy it really was. Ever since that day I’ve been free hand sharpening and rarely use any system or jig anymore. Believing I couldn’t do it and being worried about the angle control is what held me back from learning more than anything else. So I do agree with both sides systems and jigs are great to learn on but they can and do become a crutch
db, I still like the Panavice idea and incorporate it into the device. You set the angle by locking the stone holder shaft to the mast at the angle you want. Then you flip the stone holder so that the stone is facing up. Now you have an angled stone, and you are essentially freehand sharpening at an angle. If you want to do classic freehand sharpening, you simply put the stone flat on the platform. This allows you to also use the device to hold the stone in place when flattening the stone, however you can flatten the stone if it's at an angle too.
This captures an essential point of the discussion. Once the inventor of a device puts what he learns into the making of a device, you now have a device that teaches you technique. Most of us who sharpen our own knives or sharpen for others have a good idea what sharp is. The average cook, home or pro, thinks they have an idea, but ultimately sharpness is almost a mathematical abstraction - it's two planes meeting in a line perfectly, and perfect is not completely achievable. I'm sure nearly all of us have had the experience of handing someone a sharpened knife or even a knife with a good factory edge and, hopefully before they cut themselves, watch them being amazed at how it glides through something that they are used to forcing their way through. I believe that you can only understand what 'sharp' is when you can see examples of sharpness beyond what you think 'sharp' is. 'Sharp' is a qualitative term, not a quantitative one. We don't say that an edge is 5.7 sharp units and that some technique improved the edge by 2.75 sharp units.
I know that my device has returned the favor of my creating it to me. It has taught me things about sharpening that no tape alone could, beause it is right there on the bench like a personal tutor. It never gets mad at me, it never compliments me, it just acts neutrally, allowing me to explore areas of sharpening technique that I otherwise couldn't and teaches me what sharpness is - over and over again. And this allows me to become better at freehand sharpening too. Personally, I can use it as a gold standard of flatness for producing a flat plane and compare my freehand results to it. I just put some magic marker on a blade and if I've done a very good job, one pass on the 'gizmo' with any stone including a fine polishing stone should wipe it clean down to the very edge of the edge, viewed under magnification. If it doesn't, then I can see what imperfections remain.
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Ken
This captures an essential point of the discussion. Once the inventor of a device puts what he learns into the making of a device, you now have a device that teaches you technique. Most of us who sharpen our own knives or sharpen for others have a good idea what sharp is. The average cook, home or pro, thinks they have an idea, but ultimately sharpness is almost a mathematical abstraction - it's two planes meeting in a line perfectly, and perfect is not completely achievable. I'm sure nearly all of us have had the experience of handing someone a sharpened knife or even a knife with a good factory edge and, hopefully before they cut themselves, watch them being amazed at how it glides through something that they are used to forcing their way through. I believe that you can only understand what 'sharp' is when you can see examples of sharpness beyond what you think 'sharp' is. 'Sharp' is a qualitative term, not a quantitative one. We don't say that an edge is 5.7 sharp units and that some technique improved the edge by 2.75 sharp units.
I know that my device has returned the favor of my creating it to me. It has taught me things about sharpening that no tape alone could, beause it is right there on the bench like a personal tutor. It never gets mad at me, it never compliments me, it just acts neutrally, allowing me to explore areas of sharpening technique that I otherwise couldn't and teaches me what sharpness is - over and over again. And this allows me to become better at freehand sharpening too. Personally, I can use it as a gold standard of flatness for producing a flat plane and compare my freehand results to it. I just put some magic marker on a blade and if I've done a very good job, one pass on the 'gizmo' with any stone including a fine polishing stone should wipe it clean down to the very edge of the edge, viewed under magnification. If it doesn't, then I can see what imperfections remain.
---
Ken
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I can't go along with the crutch idea. That says to me that only free handing on a bench stone is the correct way to sharpen. Thats a crock of BS. Any way that you can get a knife sharp is the right way.
Its like hitting a ball RH or LH which is correct? Whats your favorite color? If its not the same as mine, who is wrong?
Its like hitting a ball RH or LH which is correct? Whats your favorite color? If its not the same as mine, who is wrong?
That is a pretty extreme view and not at all what I meant. A system does become a crutch if you start to believe the only way you can get an edge is with your system/jig and not even try anything else. Once you learn how to get a sharp edge you should be able to use any way of sharpening free hand, jigs, any of the systems, sandpaper, heck I've even seen a video of sharpening using a cinderblock and cardboard. Now after you know you can sharpen what ever you prefer to use will probably be a combo of different methods and maybe even systems. Nothing wrong with that at all. Use what works best for you.
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Bill, it may not be difficult at all for you, and quite possibly for most people. But there are a lot of us out here that find freehanding not just difficut, but utterly impossible.
I don't know whether it's hand/eye coordination, eye focus, or whatever. But I know that I've spent hundreds of hours trying to learn that skill, bought expensive waterstones, and I still can't get a decent edge. with my little $40 HF beltsander, or even Crocksticks, I can put a hair splitting edge on a blade in very short order.
If you do the same freehand, I admire, and envy your talent. But it's a talent I do not possess.
Ben
Several months ago, I was in our local SPortsman's Warehouse. In the knife area, and on the counter, they had a couple of diamond stones there for people to use. I carry a little Schrade slipjoint in my pocket and I tried it on one of the DMT diamond hones. I could NOT believe I actually put an edge on that knife! I realized for the first time that I can actually hone an edge on a bench stone. Still, though, I haven;t bought any diamonds and even when I do, I'll be tentative about putting my best knives down on one.
Just today I was working on a Mora that came in - A 510 with a less-than-desireable edge. I put one of the Sharpmaker medium rods in the end hole...the one that leaves the rod sticking out almost like a bench stone. I managed to dress the edge up *very* nice on that knife. Of course, it was a Scandi-grind so I had a little help from the knife grind. Even so, I think what holds me back from the traditional bench stone method is fear.... fear that I'll mess up the angle as someone said earlier.
Just today I was working on a Mora that came in - A 510 with a less-than-desireable edge. I put one of the Sharpmaker medium rods in the end hole...the one that leaves the rod sticking out almost like a bench stone. I managed to dress the edge up *very* nice on that knife. Of course, it was a Scandi-grind so I had a little help from the knife grind. Even so, I think what holds me back from the traditional bench stone method is fear.... fear that I'll mess up the angle as someone said earlier.
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I certainly didn't say or imply that using a jig is the only way to sharpen a knife and that I depend on that and that alone to put a good edge on my knives. Sorry about the extreme examples to make my point that what ever works for you is the way to go. I use at least six different methods depending on what works the best for me on that knife. To do it any other way would be ignorant on my part.
If I need to re profile a knife, I get out the Gatco diamond stone system. I can put a good edge back on at any angle I choose for that knife. When the angle of one of my knives is perfect for the Sharpmaker, I will use that every time. I love the edge and its so easy. If I get a really bad one, I start out with my belt sander to remove excess metal quickly. I use bench stones for extreme angles and for most other wood working tools. I use the Edge Maker Pro's while cutting meat or shaving bark for my walking sticks because just a few pulls through those and i am back to cutting with a pretty well restored edge.
Could one do all this with a good bench stone? Yes you could. You can also go everywhere on a horse but its not always the best tool.
If I need to re profile a knife, I get out the Gatco diamond stone system. I can put a good edge back on at any angle I choose for that knife. When the angle of one of my knives is perfect for the Sharpmaker, I will use that every time. I love the edge and its so easy. If I get a really bad one, I start out with my belt sander to remove excess metal quickly. I use bench stones for extreme angles and for most other wood working tools. I use the Edge Maker Pro's while cutting meat or shaving bark for my walking sticks because just a few pulls through those and i am back to cutting with a pretty well restored edge.
Could one do all this with a good bench stone? Yes you could. You can also go everywhere on a horse but its not always the best tool.
Well, say the edge grind is very nice at about 25 or 30 degrees, and I'm happy with it. I want to sharpen at that angle and then maybe put a tiny micro-bevel on it. With benchstones, I don;t have the confidence that I can find and hold that angle well enough without changing it. You know, maybe I'll hone too much on the edge and end up with a large "micro" bevel, or maybe the opposite - too much on the shoulder and end up somewhere else.
Even using a Sharpie marker.... each time I raise the blade to see how I'm doing, I've got to put it back down again on the stone. At that point, I may have changed it a degree or two...or more. SHarpening on a benchstone is a daunting task for me!
The SHarpmaker, or a jig setup as described in this thread, is more comfortable. The stone is at a constant angle and all I need to worry about is maintaining the knife blade vertical and I'm very close. Now, I'm making progress on these benchstones. As I said in this thread or another, I sharpened a slipjoint on one and it wasn;t so bad. I just haven;t made the transition yet.
No you didn't say that. However, if that was the case it would be a crutch witch is the idea I had made and was defending.
I think I had posted the very same idea, I guess we agree then.
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Different people have differentc talents. I love knives, and I would GLADLY spend the ~$2,000 for a Bader variable speed belt grinder and start making my own if I had the "hands" to do it with. But I don't.
However, I can stand up and hold my M-1 rifle offhand, and put 9 out of 10 in the bullseye consistently at 200 yards. It isn't difficult at all! FOR ME! But a lot of people could never advance to this level of skill no matter how much they practiced. For them, I say use a rest! The object of shooting a rifle is to put the bullets in the middle of the target, it's not HOW you did it. (unless you're a formal competitor, of course)
IMHO, and it is a humble opinion, since I'm a novice here, the object of sharpening a knife is to get the blade sharp. If you need a "crutch" such as a belt sander or paper wheels to do it, there's no shame in that.
I will readily admit that I didn't know what a SHARP knife really was until I acquired, and learned to use, a belt sander. I had come close with Crocksticks and the Sharpmaker, but never truly arrived.
I suppose my point in all of this is simply that you use whatever works for you, and don't worry about what someone far more skilled and more talented thinks of it. One man's heaven is another man's hell.
However, I can stand up and hold my M-1 rifle offhand, and put 9 out of 10 in the bullseye consistently at 200 yards. It isn't difficult at all! FOR ME! But a lot of people could never advance to this level of skill no matter how much they practiced. For them, I say use a rest! The object of shooting a rifle is to put the bullets in the middle of the target, it's not HOW you did it. (unless you're a formal competitor, of course)
IMHO, and it is a humble opinion, since I'm a novice here, the object of sharpening a knife is to get the blade sharp. If you need a "crutch" such as a belt sander or paper wheels to do it, there's no shame in that.
I will readily admit that I didn't know what a SHARP knife really was until I acquired, and learned to use, a belt sander. I had come close with Crocksticks and the Sharpmaker, but never truly arrived.
I suppose my point in all of this is simply that you use whatever works for you, and don't worry about what someone far more skilled and more talented thinks of it. One man's heaven is another man's hell.
I'm hoping that if you dont have those hands, you can grow some. However, after my last blade grinding attempt, they seem to come in pretty slowly.
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i'm able to sharpen anything i want, love good stones more than good knives, been doing it 40mumble years...and some folks are better at hand sharpening than others, and generally they think everybody ought to be able to.
well, if you set down and do nothing else for a few months, MOST people get it, but how many folks play basketball and how many make the pros? Lots of levels of skill. I encourage everybody who CAN use a tool that works, to get the heck out of the waterstone market and leave em for me. tyvm.
i'll even point em at the 8000 grit DMT hone and diamond paste, and encourage em to buy knives too fancy to scratch.
gosh, we don't need MORE hand sharpeners....you checked the price of good rocks lately? omg.. ya'll use sandpaper or something..
well, if you set down and do nothing else for a few months, MOST people get it, but how many folks play basketball and how many make the pros? Lots of levels of skill. I encourage everybody who CAN use a tool that works, to get the heck out of the waterstone market and leave em for me. tyvm.
i'll even point em at the 8000 grit DMT hone and diamond paste, and encourage em to buy knives too fancy to scratch.
gosh, we don't need MORE hand sharpeners....you checked the price of good rocks lately? omg.. ya'll use sandpaper or something..