V - Sharpening Convex Edges

Spine "height" isn't defined in your argument at all, nor does it define spine "width" or thickness in any way. A blade that is 12" "tall" and 1/8" thick can have the same bevel geometry as a blade that is only 1" tall.

Regarding overall shape, we are talking about a cutting blade = a wedge, "surface area" isn't the prime concern, the prime concern is mechanical advantage which is achieved via the slope of the bevel and calculated as the ratio between bevel width and bevel thickness. The other primary concern is edge strength which is determined primarily by bevel thickness.

Spine width to height determines the thinnest possible edge angle. One can put a more acute edge on a tool that is 1/4" thick and 2" wide compared to an edge that is 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide - just imagine if both were ground to a FFG. As long as all comparisons are made with the same starting area fine, but it does need to be common to have a discussion about relative differences. It matters.
 
Spine width to height determines the thinnest possible edge angle. One can put a more acute edge on a tool that is 1/4" thick and 2" wide compared to an edge that is 1/4" thick and 3/4" wide - just imagine if both were ground to a FFG. As long as all comparisons are made with the same starting area fine, but it does need to be common to have a discussion about relative differences. It matters.

Not all blades are ground to the thinnest possible primary bevel geometry. Scandi's, everything above the cutting bevel is parallel. I agree, for the sake of discussion geometry has to be identical across the board.

Always interesting, Fred
 
As has been pointed out many times before, this is not an accurate comparison: It is apples to oranges.

I apologize for breaking this down by line item, I normally detest doing so, but your response cannot be addressed in a general sense.

I have attempted many times to clarify the confines of my assertion. This is what is possible and reasonable for someone with a stone to do to an edge. Who would intentionally blunt their edge unless for industrial reasons to generate a burst cut?

An accurate comparison would have the V bevel half join the same point as the curve, which would inevitably make the V bevel thinner...
Now your argument will then be: "But that is not an equal comparison initial apex angle to initial apex angle!"
Why would you want to deliberately choose the more open -duller- apex angle, when you could have the less open -sharper- angle? Let's put aside the "splitting" aspect, which is not versatile in soft or ductible materials, and probably doesn't help knives anywhere near as much as it does much burlier axes...

You want a duller initial angle because the duller apex is stronger? The idea that the duller apex is stronger is highly debatable, especially when chopping into wood: As I pointed out, in wood, and maybe in many other materials, the more brutal deceleration of the duller apex means your apex is more fragile, being subjected to higher lateral loads from deceleration when not perfectly straight and centered, which is all the time...


Why would you want shoulder transitions pushing out into the path of your separating material when you can have the same geometry at the edge and less resistance as it immerses into the target material?

The sharper V edge will be stronger in wood just by virtue that a sharper apex means a softer deceleration into the wood... That being said, a knot could reverse that situation, but that is the basic situation.


As mentioned, the arched edge has less resistance, penetrates with less energy, has a more gradual contact area that distributes side pressure over a larger area so less chance of a rapid lateral shift. Less likely to be suddenly effected by steerage compared to a flat sided tool that will tend to present one cheek flat as it chops through.

As far as slicing soft materials being better with convex edges, that is really just so nonsensical, being a low energy situation, that it hardly deserves mention...: The drawing provided by Wowbagger should provide ample illustration...


As long as the overall stock is thin, there will be little difference either way IMHO, not that I agree with Wowbaggers drawing...

The stropping argument is even more nonsensical: All that stropping can do is open up even more the initial apex angle... Yes it can be made to shave hair easier, but shaving hair is just about the only thing stropping will improve...


With the larger contact area of the convex edge there is far less rebound energy from the strop being directed at the apex. Remember, rounding is a result of the strop surface attempting to return to its original volume as the edge passes over. On convex edges this pressure spike is reduced to a much more gradual expansion - pressure along the very edge will be far less compared to the much smaller flat contact are of the V bevel, where the pressure spike along the abrupt transition to the apex will maximize rounding over. The strop works better over a longer time on a larger bevel, especially one with a contour. This not a delusion.

The reason the recent fallacy of convex edges has so proliferated is that so few large chopping knives have truly thin V edges... In general, what held true when I was a child still holds true today...: The bigger the knife, the duller the edge... There are exceedingly few exceptions to this even today: Truly thin-edged (0.020"-0.030") big fixed blades with V edges are almost non-existent in common production knives, about the only ones in my experience being big Randalls, which are rarely used, a few isolated Al Mars and just one of my two Liles, which are even less used...

One must remember that convex edges, defined as something desirable, not a consequence of sloppiness, are a very new idea: They were formally defined by Bill Moran in the 1970s, to the point they used to be known as "Moran edges"... His explanation of how they worked was all wrong of course, always placing the curved line inside the V edge, which is clearly an unscientific non-geometric comparison... Ancient convex edges are just sloppy sharpening, or mainly V edges with washed-out shoulders... It is important to remember that a free hand V edge will nearly always produce an "unintentional" convex edge...

Today factory knives with convex edges will usually be ground much thinner near the edge than all V-edges (Bark River Knives, and Blackjack, being good examples), and the same apples-to-oranges fallacy is perpetuated in the steel as it was in the minds of its proponents...

Gaston



The historical reference is not at all accurate. Convex, or arched bevels go back to the bronze age with Otzi the icemans's axehead being a concrete example. There is nothing sloppy or haphazard about the way his axehead is ground, very high level of symmetry and workmanship from what I can see in the pictures.

Keep in mind, the ready availability of cut and shaped stone with which to form and maintain flat bevels is a recent development for many parts of the world. Sharpening of tools with loose grit on a hardwood board would have been far more common globally, as silica grit is everywhere - good quality silt or sandstone is not. This strategy is well documented and still used today.

Vintage axe bit profiles and all the better contemporary ones are likewise arched and not V bevel. There are plenty of references in old timey literature where the application of an arched edge to a felling axe is described in detail, including the removal of the shoulder transition that the factory ground edge came with. This isn't slop or poor materials but an intentional strategy to make the tool perform better - and it works. As a recent example, take a factory Fiskars hatchet - that chop very well off the shelf compared to similarly priced hatchets to begin with. Then grind off the shoulders but keep the same edge angle for the last 1/4 " or so and see for yourself which strategy bites deeper with less energy.
 
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As a recent example, take a factory Fiskars hatchet - that chop very well off the shelf compared to similarly priced hatchets to begin with. Then grind off the shoulders but keep the same edge angle for the last 1/4 " or so and see for yourself which strategy bites deeper with less energy.

The bolded above is called cutting a "relief bevel", it thins the edge and increases the mechanical advantage by reducing the average angle over the bevel-height of the blade. As long as the bevel retains the requisite thickness to prevent significant flexing/cracking, it can lend a significant increase in cutting performance. even better would be re-profiling the entire primary bevel :D

Regarding felling axes, Ross Gilmore of "Wood Trekker" gives a nice presentation on the evolving geometry thereof, I will post some of his pics below: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2011/11/axe-head-geometry-phantom-bevels-and.html

1850s American Felling Axe - Flat primary, naturally convexed edge (i.e. shoulder transition is very gradual) - heavy impact, shallow penetration, binds readily, low mechanical advantage

137_thumb%25255B1%25255D.jpg



1889 felling axe - flat primary again BUT with concavities in the bevel to reduce weight and reduce binding AND a much thinner, flatter edge bevel region to improve penetration depth

175_thumb%25255B1%25255D.jpg



1950 felling axe - the primary is now almost entirely concave-grind into a thin, flat edge to improve penetration depth, significantly increase mechanical advantage. The very apex is probably still convex to improve strength.

232_thumb%25255B1%25255D.jpg



Finally, modern GB American felling axe - primary bevel is entirely concave but a little thicker with a gradual shallow convex taper to the apex:

267_thumb%25255B1%25255D.jpg




And here is an image of some Fiskars splitting axes: http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fiskars-old-and-new.72757/#post-918725
Note the flat/slightly-convex edge that thickens concavely in the primary grind to achieve a deep penetration that gradually forces the wood apart along the grain - mechanical advantage is front-loaded on the axe - until it suddenly swings out to (hopefully) blow the round apart.

FiskarsAxes003.jpg



The point of a convex edge is to front-load strength into your apex - thicker to reduce flex that can lead to failure - at the cost of cutting efficiency, but to be more efficient that simply a bunch of flat-grind bevels with sharp transition/shoulders. Again, this is as true for axes as it is for razor blades as shown in the Gillette patent previously presented. That said, thinning the shoulders of a bevel-transition by rounding them over does improve cutting performance since it is an act of thinning, but it maintains strength by not thinning as much as grinding a comparable flat-bevel would.
 
Here's another view of the fiskars splitters, note the V bevel/shoulder at the cutting edge typical of all Fiskars axes and mauls, it isn't really convex. The concave cheeks are designed to induce max wedging in the shortest possible distance to prevent binding by splitting the wood, penetration is not a positive attribute for a splitting maul beyond the first inch or so. The wedging/splitting action should begin while the tool still has plenty of inertia.

Note: the sides are concave to induce max wedging force over the shortest distance, concave being opposite of convex....


FiskarsAxes001.jpg



And for the other felling axes, we are looking at the same pics but seeing something very different. When felling it isn't common to strike the bit all the way to the cheeks unless the wood is rotted, normally the first inch and half or so do 90% of the work. On all of them but most notably the GB (mostly because its in the best shape/focus), the convex region at the last few inches of the business end are clearly convex shaped. There isn't a shoulder to be seen anywhere, nor a flat side. The edge then slopes in to reduce weight at the cheeks and flares again to accommodate the eye with a decent amount of space for handle strength. In normal use, the cheeks only bury when splitting with your felling axe, a job it doesn't perform as well as a maul, but it does work. If they make contact at all when felling its going to be on one side of the cut only, and trailing behind the convex warhead. The concavity in this instance is a byproduct of weight reduction. Note the considerable thinning of the support steel around the eye going from late 1880s to 1950 that allows for the concave cheeks, likely a result of better steel quality more than anything.

Look, I didn't just drink the Kool Aid and come up with a bunch of rationalizations. I initially didn't care one way or the other, but after repeated period references to it I decided to try some mods and then cut some stuff. Who am I to second guess turn of the century guides and woodsmen. And they actually knew what they were talking about! Cut stuff with a variety of profile strategies and see for yourself. You might find something different from me but I doubt it.

For me there is a nice dividend to reshaping some tools to an arched configuration as it reduces mass and drag behind the edge. It cuts deeper, there's no real downside, it isn't less efficient at the expense of durability etc.

On many ordinary cutting tools it isn't worth the effort, and I actually enjoy the challenge of cosmetically sharpening V bevels because its technically more demanding - doesn't mean they cut better for it.
 
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I agree the convexing on old axes is quite deliberate (unlike on many other ancient blades), but axes are so different from knives or swords, even when used for the same purpose, that any direct reference is irrelevant in my view... Axes simply do not chop wood the same way...

European axes tended to have thinner profiles, as little as 1/4" thick at 2" from the edge, while old North American and Japanese axes had much thicker edges, up to twice as thick 2" from the edge, so even here there is no widespread agreement on what is more efficient...

Especially important is that older North American axes were "swelled" in the middle of the height of the face, so the "pinching wood" had the least surface to "pinch on", and thus this made the head withdrawal less difficult. This example, the centrally "swelled" geometry, (not convexing but a vertical swell) to help extricate the blade, is an additional proof that axes work in a way that is not relevant to knives... The splitting leverage to chuck chips out is also not relevant to a knife that is so lacking in depth of bite compared to an axe...

Deep wood cutting is not really relevant to knife use I feel, especially on anything over 4-5", but knives are not necessarily very far behind below that range.

Knives use finesse to chop wood, not weight to wedge wood apart: To my surprise, my flat ground Lile Mission chops 75% as well as my hollow ground sabre grind RJ Martin Blackbird (sabre grinds adding much weight to the blade compared to flat grinds), despite the Martin weighting 75% more (30 ounces to 17 ounces on the Lile)... Quite unlike axes, the finesse of geometry matters much more than raw weight...

Yes a convex grind can have an equally fine edge thickness, but wood is not a "fluid", therefore the lack of edge shoulders is not relevant to how the blade will perform in a non-fluid medium such as wood... A more open convex initial apex angle will perform less well on softer materials, so you have, at best no gains on non-fluids (woods), except maybe for the edge apex's lateral strength if you encounter knots, and you have distinct disadvantages on more fluid materials (flesh) compared to a V-edge...

In reality, relating to the knots or inclusion issue, what I noted in actual experience was that thin 0.020" base V-edges would bend from encountering irregularities in wood, while convexed edges that were similarly thin, having more material near the apex, were stiffer and thus chipped where the V-edge would take a bend... It may seem counter-intuitive, but more material in some places can increase rigidity and so increase brittleness. This is why if you pry with an edge, the rounded belly will resist chipping more than the straight portion of the edge, because the lateral bending is more "spread out" on the "weaker" belly, and less spread out on the more "rigid" straight edge portions...

Gaston
 
Gaston,



You said it brother.
You know, those sloppy Japanese swordsmiths and polishers...:P
A well done full height convex grind, properly maintained, will go toe to toe with any other grind unless you're having a parmesan slicing contest. A badly sharpened convex (ie one with a v bevel) does indeed "suck".
 
much smaller flat contact are of the V bevel, where the pressure spike along the abrupt transition to the apex will maximize rounding over.

Yes . . . I totally agree with that statement.
It also demonstrates why the final edge should NOT be stropped. Leave it the heck alone and just use it off the stone.

I can see where you are going with the round the edge off the apex thing but

not that I agree with Wowbaggers drawing...
Would you be so kind as to correct the drawing ?

And for a specific I can see where the convex is better for carving. Running on the convex carvers can vary their cut depth and have fine control. I understand that wood carvers strop the heck out of their edges and on the rough side of the strop no less.

But
I am thinking more along the lines of push cutting across the grain as if say . . . cutting a pencil cross wise in half.

As far as free handing and Japanese blade culture an interesting bit of information that knife people may not know but every Japanese hand tool Shokunin does without thinking :

  • The blades are bimetal. The hard steel is one thin layer on top of a thicker iron backing.
  • The Japanese craftsmen use no secondary bevels
  • They use no rounding
  • They sharpen one wide bevel much like the theory of a Scandi knife.
  • The bevel is flat
  • They never strop
  • The edges are considered to be the best in the world

How do they do it you may ask ?
By feel you can easily tell when you are lifting the iron off the stone. When the iron is down on the stone there is a certain drag. As it comes off the stone there is a slick sensation which instantly makes you want to get that bevel back down flat on the stone.

An interesting side note, and some argue this to be untrue is that the iron from 100 years ago or so has contaminates in it which helps to actually abrade and clean the sharpening stone which the modern more pure iron does not.

Anyway that there is how we get a freehand flat bevel.
As I have said before "It's not the easy way (or fast way) but it's the cowboy way".
Here is Toshio Odate putting his back into a full width bevel just like he was shown by his master. It is a huge bevel but the majority of it is the soft iron acting as a jig, as it were, for guiding the thin hard steel.



This is a page from his book by the way. I use secondary bevels once in a while but don't tell him.



And finally since you mentioned stropping here is one of my non agreeable, or is it disagreeable illustrations. Note it is the best case scenario for stopping, no convex and no small bevel and we still have geometry destroying destruction to that wonderful edge.
Yuck, I can't watch . . .



For a hard strop on the finished side of the leather that is an exaggeration but the majority of woodworkers they use the store bought carver's strop, rough side up, on a plane blade or joinery chisel.
Not good.

As far as knives . . . when I make a ten degree per side angle or a fifteen, you know, for cutting cars in half and stuff. I don't want mister strop coming along and messing with that angle and turning it into, oh I don't know, twenty or thirty degrees per side after a a few misguided sessions on the strop to "touch up the edge" which never really works all that great anyway compared with just sharpening the dang edge with a couple of stones at my desired angle.

PS: those Japanese blades are on the order of 64 hardness . . .how many here can say that about our little girly man pocket knives ?
 
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That is a "wow" post by Wowbagger... I learned a lot on Japanese utility tools...

I would also like to encourage Fred.Rowe on the tall bevel/small bevel at the same angle comparison, because the extent of the bad experience I had with most of my tall bevel thick-edged knives was just eye-opening (especially in view of all the work those tall bevels wasted for me)...: I basically had to send several of them to have the main bevel severely thinned so the "edge bevel" would not be so tall (my professional sharpener will usually not work on most hollow ground main bevels unfortunately, another huge advantage of flat-ground blades). I did not systematically test how they did after thinning, as most of the ones that matter are still out there... The relatively poor endurance of tall bevels was quite noticeable to me, but the Lile Sly II in D-2 that had a thick 0.045" edge still held on to it fairly well despite a tall bevel, but the blade was very light, so could generate only low impacts (and that was the only tall bevel to hold well: A Neeley SA9 in 440C did very poorly with very tall bevels, those being due to the very thick 0.060" edge, which I desperately tried to get down to 15 degrees per side or less: The bevels were almost 3/16" tall by the time I was done, around 5/32")...

Note: I still call "primary bevel" the one closest to the edge, the one near or at the spine being the "secondary", but that is a holdover from my readings in the 80s, and I understand the nomenclature has now been reversed from that, if I am not mistaken...

Gaston
 
...

With the larger contact area of the convex edge there is far less rebound energy from the strop being directed at the apex. Remember, rounding is a result of the strop surface attempting to return to its original volume as the edge passes over. On convex edges this pressure spike is reduced to a much more gradual expansion - pressure along the very edge will be far less compared to the much smaller flat contact are of the V bevel, where the pressure spike along the abrupt transition to the apex will maximize rounding over. The strop works better over a longer time on a larger bevel, especially one with a contour. This not a delusion.

....


Are you still comparing two blades with equal near-apex angles? (as in your drawing below)
The way I see it, the V-bevel has a larger contact area with the strop than the convex bevel at the terminal sharpening angle. So, in fact, the pressure is higher on the strop for the same downward force on a convex bevel than for a V-bevel.

Convex_zpshrtridxi.jpg
 
[video=youtube;IlS7LlTBDro]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlS7LlTBDro[/video]

[video=youtube;1xxf5_0djvE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xxf5_0djvE[/video]
 
Small secondary edge on full convex ground knives are easier to maintain and perform the same as Zero convex.My secondary edge on Full convex blades are almost invisible.It is not hard to sharpen these knives on stones,unless you want to zero convex it every time and care about perfect finish on blade:).I sharpen and touch up convex blades on sharpmaker too with great results.When secondary edge gets larger ,than I reprofile whole blade ......Belt sander is great for this.

Exactly my thoughts!
 
[video=youtube;IlS7LlTBDro]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlS7LlTBDro[/video]

[video=youtube;1xxf5_0djvE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xxf5_0djvE[/video]


Great videos :thumbup:



...The concave cheeks are designed to induce max wedging in the shortest possible distance to prevent binding by splitting the wood, penetration is not a positive attributefor a splitting maul beyond the first inch or so. The wedging/splitting action should begin while the tool still has plenty of inertia.

Note: the sides are concave to induce max wedging force over the shortest distance, concave being opposite of convex....


Have you taken basic physics? You do understand the concept of mechanical advantage, yes? Note where the concavity flairs out on those splitting axes. Is it within the first inch? NO, categorically NO, it is WELL BACK from the edge. WHY?? Because the goal is to maximize penetration first through increased mechanical advantage from the thinner edge (lower bevel angle) that does NOT significantly reduce the tools inertia, and THEN, only after the grain is separating and the blade is sunk deep enough to eliminate the likelihood of a bounce-out, then BLAST the round apart through that quick increase in thickness.

If you put the thick wedge up front, you have a significant loss of mechanical advantage, like using a slug instead of a slimmer bullet, that results in all that inertia being lost almost immediately to impact, to crushing the material instead of splitting through it as intended, there is increased risk of a "glancing blow" as well as binding due to the increased resistance of the wood against such a lack of mechanical advantage in the blade - the thicker the wedge, the greater the resistance to splitting. The ideal geometry is to get 2-3 inches of steel embedded into the round before flaring it apart in order to beat the strength of the round trying to keep the gap closed.

The only reason for a convex edge up front is to provide more strength (thickness) against the edge being bent/deflected inside the round and resulting in failure of the blade.


And for the other felling axes ... the convex region at the last few inches of the business end are clearly convex shaped. There isn't a shoulder to be seen anywhere, nor a flat side. The edge then slopes in to reduce weight at the cheeks and flares again to accommodate the eye with a decent amount of space for handle strength. In normal use, the cheeks only bury when splitting with your felling axe, a job it doesn't perform as well as a maul, but it does work. If they make contact at all when felling its going to be on one side of the cut only, and trailing behind the convex warhead. The concavity in this instance is a byproduct of weight reduction.

The concavity increases clearance on each side of the head. Weight-reduction is the bi-product. You want the weight to increase the force of the swing, to aid the inertia. You want the thin edge (and I DO see flat sides with rounded shoulders) to maximize penetration (mechanical advantage) with just sufficient thickness to prevent edge-flex and failure, and you want concave cheeks to prevent the wood on either side from from slowing you down - clearance to prevent binding and also glancing of the blade off the side. When felling, at least the trees that I'm familiar with, the trunk is usually thicker than the height of the entire blade.

Finally, regarding flat-sided splitting mauls, you've seen how those work, haven't you? It isn't a one-man job, the maul has a polished poll for a reason - it takes a second main SLAMMING that poll with a sledge hammer to push that wedge through the round - the inertia comes from the second man with the hammer, the first man with the maul just gets the thing to sit just inside the face of the round.

EDIT to add: try as I might, i couldn't find a video of the two-man splitting teams. As a scout, the Amish trained us to split large oak rounds this way. The mauls are just wedges on top of a long stick. The stick makes it easier and safer for one person (usually the younger/weaker) to hold the wedge in place while the other strikes it with the sledge, then pick up the wedge and place it on the next log without even having to bend over. The maul was reserved for large rounds and two-person teams. If rounds were smaller (<14" diameter) or only one person was present, an axe was used instead. Lifting that maul for a swing was a mad chore, not recommended for splitting... But I do see a lot of youtube videos of folks doing that way, so perhaps I'm wrong, though it seems odd given the design of the handle (straight and round) and the massive weight behind such obtuse geometry that presents a very deliberate pounding surface on the back end... Maybe folk forgot what it was for? *shrug*

Cut stuff with a variety of profile strategies and see for yourself. You might find something different from me but I doubt it.

For me there is a nice dividend to reshaping some tools to an arched configuration as it reduces mass and drag behind the edge. It cuts deeper, there's no real downside, it isn't less efficient at the expense of durability etc.

I live in the woods in WI, I heat with oak that i cut and split myself, I HAVE tried various profile strategies, I also understand the physics behind which work better than others for different scenarios. What you describe in the second sentence is, again, cutting a "relief bevel". You can do it convex and leave more meat at the shoulder, you can do it flat and leave less, or you can do it concave and really thin out behind that edge, but YES it increases mechanical advantage = cutting depth and efficiency. Just keep in mind that there is such a thing as "too thin", and the best way to avoid that is by going convex :thumbup:
 
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Finally, regarding flat-sided splitting mauls, you've seen how those work, haven't you? It isn't a one-man job, the maul has a polished poll for a reason - it takes a second main SLAMMING that poll with a sledge hammer to push that wedge through the round - the inertia comes from the second man with the hammer, the first man with the maul just gets the thing to sit just inside the face of the round.

EDIT to add: try as I might, i couldn't find a video of the two-man splitting teams. As a scout, the Amish trained us to split large oak rounds this way. The mauls are just wedges on top of a long stick. The stick makes it easier and safer for one person (usually the younger/weaker) to hold the wedge in place while the other strikes it with the sledge, then pick up the wedge and place it on the next log without even having to bend over. The maul was reserved for large rounds and two-person teams. If rounds were smaller (<14" diameter) or only one person was present, an axe was used instead. Lifting that maul for a swing was a mad chore, not recommended for splitting... But I do see a lot of youtube videos of folks doing that way, so perhaps I'm wrong, though it seems odd given the design of the handle (straight and round) and the massive weight behind such obtuse geometry that presents a very deliberate pounding surface on the back end... Maybe folk forgot what it was for? *shrug*

This method was the reason why mauls come in sledge-eye and axe-eye varieties. The axe-eye type is swung, with the larger eye allowing the handle to more readily handle the strain of repeated impact, while the smaller eye of the sledge-eye maul gives the tool significantly thicker eye walls to resist collapsing from the compressive blows of the sledge hammer.

I, too, find it odd that it's not easy to find modern examples of people using this team splitting method. Worked even better if you had a third man to grab and position the rounds so the hammer and maul guys could just focus on the splitting part.
 
This below sums up what the equations add up to...: All knives were phonebook paper push-cutting sharp, the heaviest being the Randall at 20 ounces (probably 18 ounces now with the reduced handle bulk), the Trailmaster in the middle at 17 ounces, and the "Mission" just a hair lighter: I've done this test numerous times and this is always how it turned out, except that the "convex" San Mai III Trailmaster here had a bit of V-edge worked into its convex, otherwise the performance at 35 hits would be even lower than it is here...:

P9076463_zpssywvejni.jpg


Gaston
 
Very appropriate seeing that it is wood cutting season across the country. My saw has been running, but I confess, I use a powered splitter.
Good information.

Fred
 
This method was the reason why mauls come in sledge-eye and axe-eye varieties. The axe-eye type is swung, with the larger eye allowing the handle to more readily handle the strain of repeated impact, while the smaller eye of the sledge-eye maul gives the tool significantly thicker eye walls to resist collapsing from the compressive blows of the sledge hammer.

I, too, find it odd that it's not easy to find modern examples of people using this team splitting method. Worked even better if you had a third man to grab and position the rounds so the hammer and maul guys could just focus on the splitting part.

Thank you for this, and you are absolutely right that a third man to place the rounds on the black would help :) When they were showing us how to do it, we certainly had a third person placing the rounds. One day my daughters (or a son) will be old enough to help me split our wood with a maul, but until then I'll stick to my Fiskars axe.
 
Thank you gents for taking the time to work through this detailly discussion. I've learned a lot. DM
 
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