Viet Nam Hawk Negatives

[armydoc]

Greetings all!

Just for conversating purposes I thought I would post the things I don't like about the Viet Nam Tomahawk. I'm not very impressed with the design. I'm speaking from a martial arts perspective, not necessarily from a "tool use" perspective, so your mileage may vary.

Primarily, I don't like the short handle and the big spike. These two factors in combination bring that spike uncomfortably close to my own face and body on some follow through and retraction movements. The short handle also sacrifices some reach and leverage. I think this would also be a negative when it comes to using the hawk as a tool for chopping chores as well. The only advantage I can see for such a short handle is that it makes the hawk easier to carry.

One of the strong points of the hawk is its ability to hook or catch the opponent's weapon or limb with the beak and control it for a brief time. But there are times when you don't want to do this....times when you want his weapon to carry through and past your position to set him up for the next counter. This can be executed by simply rolling your wrist to turn the beak of the hawk out of the path of his strike. But with the Viet Nam Hawk, that big back spike gets in the way and makes this more difficult. There may also be times when you would want to use a "less than lethal" counter. This can be done by using a "backcut" motion and striking with the backside of the head...unless it has a great big spike sticking out of it! The only advantage I see for the back spike is that it gives you another point that can stick in the target if you are into throwing your hawk around.

I also don't care for the rather narrow and straight edge of the Viet Nam Hawk head. This is good for chopping strokes, but not very good for cutting or slicing strokes. This is OK if you're using your hawk as a camp tool, but from a weapon perspective I would rather see a little wider and a little more curved edge.

Just my 2 cents worth. As you might gather, I won't be running out to spend big bucks on a VTAC.

Keith

 

[Daniel L]

I've got a wood handled Vietnam Tomahawk from ATC (didn't like the way the VTAC handled) and while it's a deadly tool I too prefer a single edge non-spiked back if we're talking about pure combative use.

Given the centuries of combat and hawk/axe usage if a spiked hawk was the optimal weapon they would have done that!

Now as a multipurpose tool, the spike has a lot of uses.

But frankly, from a marketing perspective, spiked hawks look way cooler and meaner than a standard single edge hawk!

 

[reconseed]

In my opinion, the spike end is a huge plus. It gives you more options. Keep in mind that the VTAC was designed for hard use and intended for military and law enforcement extraction teams. If ATC would have thought the hawks head was weak or thought any facet of the hawk was a flaw, it would have been changed. The Vietnam Style hawk head, made by Peter LaGana, is the most common used hawk head today. It is a VERY popular model among many of us who use tomahawks or tactical axes. If you dont like it, thats fine. But to say its not practical or say its not built well or strong, is just not correct. (saying speaking directly to you, but wholistically)

 

[Robert H]

The Vietnam head and spike were designed for one thing specifically. It's definately not a general purpose axe.

 

[alwilliam]

My father was a ccn member and he has told me that the 2 people that used those type weapons in country LOVED THEM for what they were designed for.This design IMO looks weaker than a LaGana and it worked great for what he called,Moccasin Work ,

He said he never did see a real LaGana in country... but had heard of them.

In fact a lao team member was given a spike type hawk as a gift by my father and years later when my Dad was able to help bring his team member to this country ...The member still had it minus the handle and gave it back.

My Dad picked this up when on leave in the states . Maker unknown.

Here is lao team members sog type patch and the hawk head.

The head is very small... as the Lao are small people and american size weapons were sometimes just to big for them to use well.

 

[Return of the J.D.]

Dwight McLemore had the same observations about spike 'hawks, and voiced them on this forum a while back: he found it disconcerting to have that spike coming back toward his head during practice maneuvers. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Ookami]

Laci Szabo also mentions the drawbacks of a spike on the butt end of a hawk on his site.
From my own experience I can also say that I am more uncomfortable with spikes from a safety perspective; especially when they're long.

Ookami8

 

[Dusty One]

The Vietnam head and spike were designed for one thing specifically. It's definately not a general purpose axe.

I agree it was designed for one thing mainly. And the spike for a very specific reason. I happen to own a dozen, three of them get used for numerious purposes and I have never had any problems with the spike.
If you want to cut down a tree use a chain saw, but be careful you could cut off a leg...

 

[biogon]

The Vietnam head and spike were designed for one thing specifically. It's definately not a general purpose axe.

I'm just curious... could you elaborate?

I've never understood what the 'hawk is used for in general (that isn't accomplished with an axe), much less the spike on it.

Thanks,

-j

 

[Dusty One]

From what I understand the VTAC was designed by Peter Lagana and mfg. in the 60's to put someone out of commission when other equipment malfunctioned or you needed something quieter. These were sold mainly to the GI's.

 

[the possum]

Given the centuries of combat and hawk/axe usage if a spiked hawk was the optimal weapon they would have done that!

Uhhh... They did. A lot. For centuries. Across the globe.

 

[Robert H]

The head was designed to puncture and rip open flesh and bone. Those square edges act in the same way a warnecliff blade does on an arc. The spike was designed to go through the NVA type helmets of the day, puncture the skull, yet not get stuck, so you're not standing there with your boot on some guy's head trying to get it out during a fight. Hence the spike shape.

It's a great close combat weapon, one of the best. Unfortunately even though Peter put on an outstanding demonstration to the folks at the Pentagon, they were never officially adopted. Many troops bought them, though, and in the jungle it was a common tactic for the VC to get close so the American firepower advantage was negated, it was known as "hugging the belt".

It's not fun to hug a guy with a short arc hatchet that can go through your helmet. I understand Peter's wife is still in possession of many letters from the G.I.'s thanking him for his tool. Beyond a pistol, there isn't much that's more devastating than a hatchet hit close up.

So as a combat weapon? Outstanding. For general woods work? I'll take my GB or Gerber hatchet. But then I don't try to cut down brush with my Hell's Belle, either.

 

[biogon]

Ah ha...

Unpleasant, but it sounds like it definitely has a very dedicated purpose that it does very well.

Thank you for the knowledge. I doubt I'll ever be in a situation where I need to use it for its intended use, but at least I won't be left wondering... say... how you can use that spike to split wood.

-j

 

[reconseed]

The head was designed to puncture and rip open flesh and bone. Those square edges act in the same way a warnecliff blade does on an arc. The spike was designed to go through the NVA type helmets of the day, puncture the skull, yet not get stuck, so you're not standing there with your boot on some guy's head trying to get it out during a fight. Hence the spike shape.

It's a great close combat weapon, one of the best. Unfortunately even though Peter put on an outstanding demonstration to the folks at the Pentagon, they were never officially adopted. Many troops bought them, though, and in the jungle it was a common tactic for the VC to get close so the American firepower advantage was negated, it was known as "hugging the belt".

It's not fun to hug a guy with a short arc hatchet that can go through your helmet. I understand Peter's wife is still in possession of many letters from the G.I.'s thanking him for his tool. Beyond a pistol, there isn't much that's more devastating than a hatchet hit close up.

So as a combat weapon? Outstanding. For general woods work? I'll take my GB or Gerber hatchet. But then I don't try to cut down brush with my Hell's Belle, either.

I am glad someone finally mentioned this. I had forgotten the name of the blade (yojimbo style from spyderco) thanks to rob here.

The mere thought of hand to hand combat with an axe is pretty disturbing, anyway you look at it, so I am with Rob, for CWC, I personally dont think that there is a better weapon, aside from a pistol. (Glock)

My 2 favorite CQC arms: ATC vtac & my G19 or G17

 

[Ookami]

Uhhh... They did. A lot. For centuries. Across the globe.

which ones exactly?

mostly there were either spikes (warhammer) or axe blades (tomahawks). both types sometimes had a hammer poll.

axe blade and spike are mostly found on weapons with longer handles (halberd) which keep the business end away from the user and therefore eliminate the safety issue.

it is also interesting, that LaGana (quoted on DonDrearic.com) himself thought that the most deadly part on his design is not the spike, but the leading edge. this philosophy also holds true for francescas that have a strongly forward angled curve.

as for puncturing a helmet; while it may be an interesting feature, I don't think it is vital for combat applications. you have a lot of other targets that are not protected as eg clavicle or neck.

Ookami

 

[reconseed]

ook, you are referring to the "beard" of the hawk. Yes, very deadly.

 

[crossada]

i remember greg walker saying he still likes the original wood handle vietnam hawk better because it has better balance and feel.

wood handle designed as a weapon
vtac designed as a breacher

 

[armydoc]

The mere thought of hand to hand combat with an axe is pretty disturbing, anyway you look at it, so I am with Rob, for CWC, I personally dont think that there is a better weapon, aside from a pistol. (Glock)

My 2 favorite CQC arms: ATC vtac & my G19 or G17

---I agree that the tomahawk is a pretty devastating CQC weapon. But I think that the more "traditional" hawk designs make a better CQC weapon than the Viet Nam hawk design for reasons that I outlined at the beginning of this thread.

Keith

 

[Ookami]

@ reconseed: Actually, I mean the upper part of the edge. It's angled forward, so you have a very powerful hit, like on a francesca or a khukuri.

All in all, I agree with armydoc:

I can see the uses of a spike in breaching when used with controlled motions, but when used with erratic gross motor skills in a combat situation with an adrenaline pumped body, I can see problems coming your way.

Imagine you get up close to your enemy, he spots you so that you have to do a quick windup for a deadly helmet piercing strike, or else he will alarm the camp or whatever. Inadvertently you split the top of your head open with the blade that is facing your way while using the spike.
It may still kill your enemy though, he will probably have to laugh so hard that he drops dead. :foot:

Ookami

 

[the possum]

which ones exactly?

mostly there were either spikes (warhammer) or axe blades (tomahawks). both types sometimes had a hammer poll.

axe blade and spike are mostly found on weapons with longer handles (halberd) which keep the business end away from the user and therefore eliminate the safety issue.

I am not debating that other types were also widely popular. Maybe I misunderstood him, but the way David L phrased his post, it sounds like he thinks spiked axes/tomahawks weren't really in widespread use until modern times. And a spike on the back of a short war hammer would have the same issues as an axe like you mentioned above, yet they were widely done too.


They were very popular on boarding axes for centuries, including in America.

Here's an entire page full of original antique Spike Tomahawks.

15th century Italian Horseman's axe:

There's 8 pages worth of pictures of antique hafted weapons over on My Armory, including lots of medieval spiked axes, such as this 16th century German Horseman's axe:

The idea was also known in India:

They also seemed quite popular in the Middle East, and I know I've seen lots of pictures of them, but now I can't find any examples since "axe" is too short a word to search with on most forums where I've seen them.