Viet Nam Hawk Negatives

In Poland the war hammer, or nadziak, was so feared if you weren't at war they were by law banned from carrying in public. Yet everyone could wear a saber. Go figure.
 
armydoc said:
---I agree that the tomahawk is a pretty devastating CQC weapon. But I think that the more "traditional" hawk designs make a better CQC weapon than the Viet Nam hawk design for reasons that I outlined at the beginning of this thread.

Keith
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Keith, sir, believe as you wish but the truth is that the Vietnam style hawk shape HAS PROVEN itself more so than any other that I can remember as far as documented combat scenarios go. While the VTAC is an amazing combat hawk, it was NOT designed for clearing brush or chopping wood. Can it do both? Of course. But it was NOT designed for that. Peter LaGana designed the spike on the end of the hawk for a reason that he saw necessary and that thousands have sided with. I am stickiing with the vietnam style hawk. IMO, its the best of all worlds. It CAN do it all but excels in combat scenarios, for which it was designed.
 
Lots of people like back spikes. I just was never comfortable with it. If I had to 'Just Have' a spike I would like it on the tip, above the head where it could be used to leaver (as a breaching tool) or thrust . Bottom line for me is I don't like them. Yep, it been on axes for hundreds of years and if you guys got the hots for them....go for it! I'm not a fan of the Lagana Tomahawk but that in no way detracts for the design and the work of that great man. He definitely had the 'combat load' in mine when he designed it. It's just a personal thing with me. That's all.

Best Dwight
 
One more point! The Lagana design is sort of like Bowie knives. It sort of has a mystical appeal that draws people to it. Watch peoples eyes when they get one as a gift. That's a factor too, ...it's very important to have faith that the weapon is effective. Look at the photos of Peter Lagana, see the eyes and watch his movements in the videos that survive. I think I would have liked the man and truly believe that he put a lot of his soul into that design. Yes indeed, it is a 'Combat Proven' weapon/tool that carries a lot of weight for most people. I've an old beat up bayonet that my Dad carried through WWII. It's not a good design, it's a bit too light for me but considering where it has been and the things it saw, the value is not measurable. Sorry to wax spiritual but I just Love this stuff.

Best
Dwight
 
Keith, sir, believe as you wish but the truth is that the Vietnam style hawk shape HAS PROVEN itself more so than any other that I can remember as far as documented combat scenarios go.
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Actually a few thousand settlers in the Ohio river valley would disagree, as well as a good number of the first Europeans who had to face flint, stone, and wooden versions. The Vietnam is a very cool piece, but it's certainly not the monster weapon of history.
 
reconseed said:
Keith, sir, believe as you wish but the truth is that the Vietnam style hawk shape HAS PROVEN itself more so than any other that I can remember as far as documented combat scenarios go.
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You really think so? :-) Perhaps you need to do a little study in American History! I would recommend you concentrate on the Frontier Era as well as the American Southwest. The use of the hawk in Viet Nam was very minimal compared to that! I agree with Robert H. and Dwight McLemore. I also tend to think that the "coolness" factor is probably the Viet Nam Hawks best selling point.

Keith
 
armydoc said:
You really think so? :-) Perhaps you need to do a little study in American History! I would recommend you concentrate on the Frontier Era as well as the American Southwest. The use of the hawk in Viet Nam was very minimal compared to that! I agree with Robert H. and Dwight McLemore. I also tend to think that the "coolness" factor is probably the Viet Nam Hawks best selling point.

Keith
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To argue that the Vietnam style hawk has NOT proven itself over the test of battle an years in the past 30-40 years is foolish. I guess some people would argue with a stop sign, wouldnt they armydoc. :jerkit:
 
the possum said:
I am not debating that other types were also widely popular. Maybe I misunderstood him, but the way David L phrased his post, it sounds like he thinks spiked axes/tomahawks weren't really in widespread use until modern times. And a spike on the back of a short war hammer would have the same issues as an axe like you mentioned above, yet they were widely done too.
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Thanks Possum - I totally forgot about those!

In my head I was thinking about the spike form axe being predominant - it's not (standard axes seemed more common) - but that is probably due to materials.

As for combat efficacy, my understanding is that their use is for penetrating plate armour - so I see the same application for the VTAC and a helmet.

FWIW I like my CAS Iberia Francesca as a better pure weapon - faster, longer reach. Just needs the grip wrapped.
 
To argue that the Vietnam style hawk has NOT proven itself over the test of battle an years in the past 30-40 years is foolish.

---Did I ever say that? You seemed to be implying that the Viet Nam Hawk design had "proven itself more so than any other" design...in your words. I have only been saying throughout this thread that although it may work well as a CQC weapon, the more "traditional" designs IMHO are better, and have been more "proven" throughout history.

I guess some people would argue with a stop sign, wouldnt they armydoc.

---Yeah. I guess you would. But it would help if you would read the posts a little closer. :p

Keith
 
In my head I was thinking about the spike form axe being predominant - it's not (standard axes seemed more common) - but that is probably due to materials.
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When it comes to the longer hafted axes/choppers (basically anything not a straight spear) the spiked forms had to be close to, if not the predominant forms. Nearly every one of the many varied styles of pole axes included some sort of spike or hook projection on it somewhere.

If you want to go all the way back to the bronze age or 1st millenium A.D., then maybe you would see more of the simple type axes. And materials might have been an issue then, but by the time warriors clad themselves from head to toe in some form of metal armor, I'd think they could spare another ounce or two for their weapons if they wanted to.

As for combat efficacy, my understanding is that their use is for penetrating plate armour - so I see the same application for the VTAC and a helmet.
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I'd tend to think broader than just plate armor- more like penetrating pretty much whatever you want to. Helmets are not unique to Vietnamese soldiers or a medieval knight in gothic harness. They have been part of the standard equipment for most modern militaries since WWI, along with things like flak jackets, ballistic vests with various inserts, and of course all the equipment and crap a soldier is expected to carry on his web gear and pack, including extra magazines full of ammo. That's still plenty of stuff in the way.

Please understand that I am not arguing in favor of spike hawks here at all. Just adding some thoughts to an interesting discussion.
 
The spike is dangerous to the user if the user has no training. Like the chinese double edged sword or the double sided axe of the vikings practice makes for increased longevity.

I have read that the spike has already gained a place in today's battlefield. Apart from ventilating the enemy's head, the spike is the undisputed champion of speedy tyre deflating or climbing aid.

Without the spike a soldier is left with one less useful tool. To say you may hurt yourself then remember that accidents (friendly fire or accidentally detonate a grenade?) do happen but the risk reduces with training and experiance.
 
I must have done my tour in Nam in the wrong area. The closest thing I remember seeing that resembled a hawk was an entrenching tool. As far as the NVA pith helmet goes how tough is compressed cardboard?
 
Well I'm absolutely unsure about that due to not only being foreign i'm also done no tours. All I gathered is from what I've read and from Bladeforum. Different tours or different people got their own stories to tell. Some of what said makes me glad I live in peaceful times in a peaceful country (Malaysia).

Is it really made with compressed cardboard??? In a tropical country would it last in the humidity? May I ask with no offense meant, was that sarcasm cause I'm not to good at reading between the lines.
 
You Know, I can't tell you exactly what it is about the Lagana Tomahawk, but it just does not feel quite right for me. No I don't like spikes, but that's a personal preferance and nothing more. After I hurt myself a couple of times with them I sort of 'took the message' that it was not for me. I tend to like a bit more head heavy feel and that's the best I can say about it. I really wish I had the opportunity to meet and talk with Peter Lagana and my comments are not designed to detract from that great man in anyway what-so-ever. From the videos and still photos I've seen of him at work, he must have been a remarkable fellow. He is sort of like John Styers......more needs to be written about them. I tell what I am grateful for is all those tomahawk designers and makers out there that keep the market alive with such a great variety that any of us (no matter how wierd) can find something we like.

Best
Dwight
 
Dwight McLemore said:
You Know, I can't tell you exactly what it is about the Lagana Tomahawk, but it just does not feel quite right for me. No I don't like spikes, but that's a personal preferance and nothing more. After I hurt myself a couple of times with them I sort of 'took the message' that it was not for me. I tend to like a bit more head heavy feel and that's the best I can say about it. I really wish I had the opportunity to meet and talk with Peter Lagana and my comments are not designed to detract from that great man in anyway what-so-ever. From the videos and still photos I've seen of him at work, he must have been a remarkable fellow. He is sort of like John Styers......more needs to be written about them. I tell what I am grateful for is all those tomahawk designers and makers out there that keep the market alive with such a great variety that any of us (no matter how wierd) can find something we like.

Best
Dwight
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I was a friend of Peter Lagana's. It was I who first approached him with the idea of letting us bring back the American Tomahawk Company. I was able to spend a little time with him, but not enough as he was advancing in age and was ill. He could not do the things that he once could. He never thought that the VT was the be all, end all weapon. He had developed a tool that he thought would help out the soldiers that were fighting for our country and by the time it took to get a few production runs out the door the war was coming to a close and copies of the VT were already showing up overseas. He had put his whole life into the VT and it had served it's purpose when the war ended. When we met with him in the year 2000 and started talking about making a modern day version that would work in todays army, he was very receptive into looking at ways to make it even better for todays modern warrior. Unfortunately shortly after, I sold my share of ATC and Peter soon passed away before any major design changes and testing could occour.
ATC did go on to make a few changes with one being the handle and the other being the sheath.
 
"He had developed a tool that he thought would help out the soldiers that were fighting for our country and by the time it took to get a few production runs out the door the war was coming to a close and copies of the VT were already showing up overseas. He had put his whole life into the VT and it had served it's purpose when the war ended"

Mr. Branton from your post I feel that I have not accorded the Lagana hawks the correct type of respect. Previously I respected it as a popular deadly weapon (high "cool" factor) with the perspective of a mall ninja. From now on it will be personal view that the Lagana hawks are an embodiment of a man's hopes and dream for his country and men. Not just an item/weapon.

I think if he was still alive his innovations (not limited to hawks I think) made with consideration and passion will persevere long after he is gone... Like his Lagana hawks today. Respect.
 
Bobby: You are indeed a blessed person to have been a friend of Peter Lagana.
I thought a lot about 'packing it in' and getting out of the martial arts for a while this past year. It was some refreshing ideas similar to your post that made me reconsider and realize that all of us owe a debt to the Styers, Lagana, & Biddles of this world to 'Finish the Game'. Sort of keeps one going.

Best
Dwight
 
I would have loved to have met Mr. Lagana. If nothing else, he was an American Patriot and loved his country. THAT is respectable, whether or not everyone is a fan of his hawk style or not
 
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