Views on TEOTWAWKI: US vs. Canadiens (& Others)

[XMP]

We regularly have various SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios and discussions on this forum (as we should). As I have read these threads over the past few years, I've come to the subjective conclusion that US residents (henceforth Americans) are more pessimistic about the future, specifically in giving greater credence to the possible breakdown of society in some fashion and often advocate more militant preparations for such a possiblity (for example, stocking up on ammo, etc.). Whereas non-Americans, and Canadiens most prominently (since they make up the majority of non-Americans on the W&SS forum), while they don't completely discount these scenarios seem generally more optimistic about the future, and even when they reckon with the possible SHTF scenarios are decidedly less militant about how to prepare for them.

So my questions for you are: Am I off base or is there a real difference of perspective? And if you agree there is a difference of perspective, to what do you attribute it?

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Many other countries, including Canada already have had most of their rights stripped away concerning gun control. They already have a social healthcare plan and many other things that do not sit well with the lifestyle we have maintained for many years.

I am NOT saying this is good, bad or otherwise. I have my personal beliefs, but they do not belong here. Just giving you the reasons.
Our rights according to the constitution are being stripped away, so we naturally are a bit more on edge. They are more comfortable because they did not have our rights to begin with.

Carl-

 

[kgd]

Many other countries, including Canada already have had most of their rights stripped away concerning gun control. They already have a social healthcare plan and many other things that do not sit well with the lifestyle we have maintained for many years.

I am NOT saying this is good, bad or otherwise. I have my personal beliefs, but they do not belong here. Just giving you the reasons.
Our rights according to the constitution are being stripped away, so we naturally are a bit more on edge. They are more comfortable because they did not have our rights to begin with.

Carl-

Well, that's a pretty obnoxious attitude.....[edited out.........got a learn to breath before typing....]

 

[powernoodle]

And if you agree there is a difference of perspective, to what do you attribute it?

There is a different perspective. 100 million fanatical muslims don't want to nuke Canada. Its only a matter of time before an American city gets nuked, so we tend to see things differently. Its not that simple of course, as our society is decaying at an alarming rate which tends to make some of us grumpy (me), but you get the picture. We have also seen roving bands of domestic lunatics doing harm (South Central LA, Katrina, etc.) so we already know what can happen.

I do not believe that I have an alarmist perspective. But I am nevertheless prepared as I can be for what may happen. That is only prudent.

JMO. :thumbup:

 

[HornyToad]

Well, that's a pretty obnoxious attitude.....[edited out.........got a learn to breath before typing....]

Sounded like his view of things to me, not an attitude. Maybe you view things differently, but then again I am from the USA and am not excited about the latest political trends too.

 

[koyote]

We regularly have various SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios and discussions on this forum (as we should). As I have read these threads over the past few years, I've come to the subjective conclusion that US residents (henceforth Americans) are more pessimistic about the future, specifically in giving greater credence to the possible breakdown of society in some fashion and often advocate more militant preparations for such a possiblity (for example, stocking up on ammo, etc.). Whereas non-Americans, and Canadiens most prominently (since they make up the majority of non-Americans on the W&SS forum), while they don't completely discount these scenarios seem generally more optimistic about the future, and even when they reckon with the possible SHTF scenarios are decidedly less militant about how to prepare for them.

So my questions for you are: Am I off base or is there a real difference of perspective? And if you agree there is a difference of perspective, to what do you attribute it?

I think that there is a difference in perspective, but I think the causes are different.....

Many other countries, including Canada already have had most of their rights stripped away concerning gun control. They already have a social healthcare plan and many other things that do not sit well with the lifestyle we have maintained for many years.

I am NOT saying this is good, bad or otherwise. I have my personal beliefs, but they do not belong here. Just giving you the reasons.
Our rights according to the constitution are being stripped away, so we naturally are a bit more on edge. They are more comfortable because they did not have our rights to begin with.

Carl-

There's an element to this that seems to have merit- but I think it's not really true.

Granted- we are very polarized on gun rights here, but that's due in large part to the existence of a gun culture (of which I am part) - not necessarily the Second Amendment as such. Combine this with the Calvinist descent of much of our social cultures and you have a real powder keg- and a lot of inbuilt negativity.

Healthcare? Oh, man, there's so much I could say. I'm already editing myself HARD here. Socialized medicine does not require a loss of freedom. Corporate and political interests in our nation seem set on guaranteeing a loss of freedom, but it's not necessary. Not at our technological level (I'd recommend some reading on/of Fuller is the idea of economics of abundance seems absurd)

Well, that's a pretty obnoxious attitude.....[edited out.........got a learn to breath before typing....]

I have gone through the post to this point 5 times, removed references to all sorts of things (not Hitler, though!!!) and agree with you.....





Okay, here's my take in large part:

1: Canada has less population pressure. I'd argue that in many respects it has a less intrusive government presence. A higher percentage of the population appears to have some connection to the outdoors, self reliance, and community. I could be way off base, but this seems to be part of it.

2: the US was founded by a bunch of idealists of different stripes who came to some crazy compromises- in addition to the 'hippies' of the era like Jefferson, you had the descendants of the religious outcasts who colonized much of the US.

These weren't people who fled persecution, for the most part- they were groups that were so strident, fanatical, and overbearing in their desire to rule the morals of others that they were kicked out. We were settled, to a much larger extent than Canada, by people who wanted to legislate their version of God's Law on others.

What difference does this make? We've had a social influence to intolerance and cantankerousness since day 1.

We've also had an anti-social propaganda campaign going on for over 100 years claiming that corporations have inherent rights (?!?!) and that it's wrong to restrict the operations of people who desire to make money by nearly any means.


All this rambling comes down to- we've got a huge amount of negative attitude, pessimism, and intolerance of others running through some of the fabric of our society down here.


Add to that the issues of the Cold War- I grew up with the end of the world, with me, myself, as a dependent, being a target. That's pretty rough. It was MY nation- hell, my family members who were going to play a leading role in the destruction of the planet. Try getting a positive attitude towards EOTWAWKI with that!!!!

Now, this doesn't apply to all of us. 300 million people can't be painted with one brush. I live in a free associative household of 9 people, only 3 of which are actually related to me. I'm far from the norm. Our EOTWAWKI scenarios involve much larger movement or guardianship plans than most singles and couples in the US. It informs our attitudes, too. I don't feel I'm particularly negative about anything except government involvement (and I don't hold laws as sacred, which is a peculiar american problem)


edit: and yeah, we have well over 20,000 rounds of airgun ammo, 7500 rounds of .22, and a decent usable stockpile of our other calibers. But we also have a 6-8 month supply of food for the entire group, lots of camping gear, alternative fuel sources, and do supplement our food with real, regular, foraging. I wouldn't say the firearms are the single issue.....

that being said, we don't just have .22s, and not all of our firearms are there for any purpose other than defense. I don't see that as weird- but I've been to bosnia

 

[dextersp1]

I think there is some good reason to be fearful of the current financial crisis - it isn't over yet; and there really isn't anyway for the economy to grow enough to support the debt and the countries obligations.


If you want to understand the Culture of Fear in the USA; read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Fear-Americans-Afraid-Things/dp/0465014909

From Publishers Weekly
In a provocative report, Glassner (Career Crash, etc.) contends that Americans' worries about crime, drugs, child abuse and other issues have been blown out of proportion by a mass media that thrives on scares. Exposing fear-mongering in many quarters, this University of Southern California sociology professor argues that trendy issues like road rage, workplace violence, teenage suicide, "granny dumping" (abandonment of the elderly by callous relatives) and sex crimes via the Internet are "false crises" manufactured by inflated statistics and hype. Lambasting liberals as well as conservatives who allegedly blame teen moms for the nation's social ills, Glassner contends that teenage pregnancy is largely a response to the nation's economic and educational decline. He also believes that America's expensive campaign against illegal drugs like cocaine, heroin and marijuana diverts attention from the far more serious problem of deaths from the abuse of legal drugs and physicians' gross negligence in prescribing them. The good news, he reports, is that airplane travel is safer than ever and that the incidence of child kidnapping has been wildly exaggerated. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he has his own axes to grind: he calls Gulf War Syndrome a "metaphoric illness," tweaks the hypocrisy of "those who single out rap singers as specially sexist or violent" and labels the FDA's 1992 ban on silicone breast implants "a grand victory of anecdote over science." Some of his arguments are fresher than others; in any case, this antidote to paranoia is a guaranteed argument-starter. Agent, Geri Thoma.
Copyright 1999 Reed Business Information, Inc. --

 

[XMP]

Well, that's a pretty obnoxious attitude.....[edited out.........got a learn to breath before typing....]

KGD, OK you don't agree with his statement, but what is your take on this situation aside from disagreeing with PrimitiveMan?

 

[Rotte]

I'm pessimistic about the future; but I only have a dozen rounds of ammo and food for a week. What does that make me? That has to be the worst case scenario: expecting the worst and totally unprepared. I should be my own country.

 

[koyote]

I'm pessimistic about the future; but I only have a dozen rounds of ammo and food for a week. What does that make me? That has to be the worst case scenario: expecting the worst and totally unprepared. I should be my own country.

It makes you someone with a duty come the End....

 

[Evolute]

I won't deign to speak for anyone else.

Speaking for myself, here in the U.S., I find this end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/breakdown-of-society stuff extremely unlikely, and silly to obsess over. Planning for that doesn't make much sense to me.

I do think that significant localized scenarios, with natural disasters, evacuations, people misbehaving, etc., could happen (such as happened in New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina and the flooding). I also think that the U.S. government will eventually fall apart – nothing lasts forever. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, though sometimes it does seem like the gov's actions are hastening it. The possibility of a serious monetary crisis, with hyperinflation, etc., seems possible, because of great irresponsibility on many levels by many people. I still doubt that would bring about the breakdown of society, the need for evacuation, and so on. I seriously doubt a scenario will occur that would make it sensible for me to evacuate my home, travel on foot by stealth to my secret hideout, and defend against the hordes with my huge stockpile of ammunition.

If mass rebellion occurs, I think it is more likely to take other forms than fighting in the streets.

Overall, I'm fairly optimistic about the future. I do think pernicious governance is a serious problem, and that – here in the U.S., right now – it's getting worse. However, I don't believe the government is the end-all-be-all force of power, and I think stronger forces for good are eclipsing bad state behavior, and making the state less relevant. In most other ways, the future looks bright, to me.

When I prepare for survival, I prepare more for emergency wilderness survival – something like getting lost or breaking my leg or whatever, when I'm out hiking or climbing or such. I'm not stockpiling ammo to defend against the zombie hordes in the apocalypse. I do try to also be ready for survival situations involving earthquakes, bush fires, etc., but I disregard the total collapse of society scenarios. I don't see them as plausible.

I am much more interested in the outdoor skills and emergency wilderness survival aspects of this forum, than the TEOTWAWKI silliness.

 

[quietmike]

I believe a part of Americans obsession with SHTF and TEOTWAWKI is a portion of America actually looks forward to something like that happening. Call it a social enema, chance to rebuild, or whatever.

Lots of us believe America, in its current form, is so perverted from its intended form, and so beyond hope of repair that it will take something very drastic to return us to our founding ideology.

 

[koyote]

Evolute brings up a few salient points for me-

1: I don't have ammo primarily because I think I'm going to be shooting people by the hundreds, or even dozens. But I may not be able to GET more at some point, and some of it is designated as 'trade stock'

2: I don't see a collapse of civilization- there simply isn't a single point of failure in the complex systems we have.

3: I live with a first generation american of Polish Jewish descent. I talk to her mother often, who was in dachau (her father was in a camp, too. But he's not around anymore). She tells me stories of people saying it could never happen, not in first world nations.......

I've served in the military in regions where total breakdown did happen. I don't expect it, not looking for it, but I do know that it's possible. Unlikely in the extreme, but possible. And if it happened, it might even be invisible. I'd recommend reading the Parable series by Octavia Butler for anyone who is interested in how that might be.

I'm honestly more concerned with a theocracy than anything- and I'm simply heading for the Yukon if that happens.

 

[coyotebc]

Many other countries, including Canada already have had most of their rights stripped away concerning gun control. They already have a social healthcare plan and many other things that do not sit well with the lifestyle we have maintained for many years.

I am NOT saying this is good, bad or otherwise. I have my personal beliefs, but they do not belong here. Just giving you the reasons.
Our rights according to the constitution are being stripped away, so we naturally are a bit more on edge. They are more comfortable because they did not have our rights to begin with.

Carl-

Not exactly true
On a per capa basis Canadians own a similiar number of firearms as Americans.
The type of firearms may be different, I own over a dozen rifles and shotguns.
I do have a liscence to buy a pistol, but to date I haven't.
I think the major difference is that in Canada even more so then the US we have a bigger difference between rural and urban dwellers.
Most Canadians on this sub-forum have the ability to get away from the crowds in less then 1/2 hour. I think this makes us feel less trapped then if we didn't have that. Most of us haven't thought of the need to fight to get out of town
Also historically we haven't some of social conflicts that have happened in the US.
Without having some of the social upheavals that the US has had we don't have that as part of our collective psyche
I can't think of a Canadian equivalent to Waco or L.A. riots so we don't think in those terms.
I really think though that we are not all that different

 

[August West]

The great depression was pretty dang close to a total breakdown. If you believe it can't happen again, why not? A bad hurricane on our refineries, New Madrid fault cuts lose, or millions of other real world scenarios could make it happen practically overnight. How to prepare for it? Magnussen said it in another thread, education, everything can be taken away from you but what you carry around in your head. Chris

 

[Rotte]

I'm simply heading for the Yukon if that happens.

Let me know, I might join you.

I actually think that in the EOTWAWKI scenarios, the survivors are going to be the ones who form small societies that can organize and function efficiently. Ever see the movie Defiance?

 

[m. wohlwend]

This is a touchy topic and will probably get moved, But look at facts. We have had regional breakdowns of law and order in different places and different times. We have not had it on a natioanl scale yet. Hurrican Katrina and the LA riots were regional events where there was open fighting in the streets and were very real SHTF situations. I think 9-11 was a real SHTF situation also. So I think you should be prepared because it has happened. I view our Canadian friends as the poor quiet fellows who have to live next to the rowdy Americans! LOL

 

[koyote]

Let me know, I might join you.

I actually think that in the EOTWAWKI scenarios, the survivors are going to be the ones who form small societies that can organize and function efficiently. Ever see the movie Defiance?

We'll be passing by....


It's very much my feeling that it will be social groupings that win through. I grew up in a church that was very, very strong on this. I'm not a member at this point for various reasons, but many of the habits and attitudes towards community and family are in my blood.

In addition to our core 9, we have random "open invites" to an assortment of people locally should worst come to worst. From another week long power outage (we donated showers to a lot of friends, having gas water heat) to a full on disaster movie quake- but it's not commune style. More kibbutz style, if anything.

 

[RoyalM]

Good interesting thread mate. Speaking as an outsider I'll give my viewpoint on why I think the Brits have a different approach than the US guys.

1) The US has the possibility of really nasty weather or natural disasters that can result in survival situations. I'm thinking Katrina mainly but earthquakes and volcanoes aren't too uncommon for you guys either.

2) Guns are part of your country since birth and tied into the psyche of the people. Sadly some choose to use them wrongly so situations can go bad very quickly. It also allows those with the lowest moral values to use them to extort/kill or control others. I'm thinking car jacking but any crime using a gun to give you leverage.

3) Like it or loathe it but there are a few countries or peoples out there that would love to see America wiped off the map. They don't conceal this and you guys aren't shielded from it due to news saturation. At the moment you're top dog as a super power and everyone knows that the top dog will always be challenged from time to time. Look at the Brit Empire, how many countries wanted us out by the end? How many might have taken that farther if they had the means? Ireland etc?

4) I also think the military is a big part of US culture and as a result planning for the worst filters down into civilian psyche. Not a bad thing, what people consider pessimistic is actually just very reasoned thinking for the most part. If it can go wrong it will, I often say that and am judged a pessimist by my gf. I am also proved 99% of the time right though.

Now look at the UK.

1) Our Empire is pretty much gone and we are not a super power. Therefore we are hated less. I'm not saying there aren't as many countries out there that hate us but we're less of a threat to them than you are so that makes us less of a target.

2) Guns, knives and the military are not regarded as part of our everyday lives or culture. So all the mental stuff they bring into your thinking is ruled out straight away.

3) Bad weather and natural disasters are on a scale that is manageable by most. Sure some flooding now and again but that's it really.


For my own point of view and I state that loud and clear. I find most US guys who are preparing for SHTF stuff to have their heads screwed on right. Practical, thorough and no self delusions. If a SHTF situation does occur I'd rather be with the guy who is prepared for people to turn on each other rather than for people to spontaneously band together and become some altruistic society. Call me a pessimist but I've seen what people can be like in bad situations. Have I prepared for the end? Not really, i've got a decent amount of kit and rations but not much else. I also live relatively close to a nuclear sub base so should it go that way I'll probably die in the first big flash. I do have friends who are increasingly moving off grid and becoming far more independent when it comes to food, power and water supplies. They view it as both preparing for the worst and being frugal (typical Scot) though.

Lastly I will say if I ever get to love to the US I think you'd find I and many other like me from other countries would start to adopt the mindset of the US guys. A good friend of mine married and moved to the US recently and within the 6 months he's been there I can see the change in him. Not a bad thing but you can see he takes certain things (like home protection, having the car stocked in case of emergencies etc) a lot more seriously.

 

[XMP]

This is a touchy topic and will probably get moved

I hope not; I'm mainly interested in what the views of people on this subforum are, not BF as a whole. That would change the dynamics of the conversation drastically.