Views on TEOTWAWKI: US vs. Canadiens (& Others)

[Rotte]

If you believe it can't happen again, why not?

Your example of the great depression is a good one: close, but not the end of the world. As Koyote points out, it's a big country and there are few single points of failure.

People, and by this I also include Canadians, are more resilient than not. We are all descended from millions of years of survivors. Think about it: for millions of years your progenitors survived everything that the universe could throw at them, literally. Just to make you. Well done.

We are a lot tougher than we realize. Regular bipedal cockroaches.

 

[coyotebc]

I think we just need to keep it civil and non-political

 

[XMP]

RoyalM, thanks for the interesting outsider perspective.

 

[coyotebc]

Your example of the great depression is a good one: close, but not the end of the world. As Koyote points out, it's a big country and there are few single points of failure.

People, and by this I also include Canadians, are more resilient than not. We are all descended from millions of years of survivors. Think about it: for millions of years your progenitors survived everything that the universe could throw at them, literally. Just to make you. Well done.

We are a lot tougher than people realize. Regular bipedal cockroaches.

Katrina was an anomaly
History has shown time and time again that communities rally together in a disaster.
Individually we can be tough, but as a group we are more then the sum of our parts

 

[koyote]

Rotte- fantastic! COCKROACHES!!!!


This is so ... perfect. The reason I prepare for defense in addition to regular survival boils down to me having kids and humans beings are ..... much like cockroaches. When things get really tough, we'll prey on each other, or consume at the expense of others. We're good survivors, but I confess that it's my family first in this.

 

[jca21]

... and I'm simply heading for the Yukon if that happens.

Let me know, I might join you.

...

The yukon is a very beautiful place.

 

[kgd]

Okay, I had my cool down period Half bottle of great merlot and watching IP-man kick some butt....

All that said, I'm almost 40 years old and my perspectives have changed. I'm definitely more communal now and like Koyote (He's almost as old a bastard as I am) I have faith that a core of society will exist. Albeit, I'll give the American West and cowboy, Good the Bad the Ugly heroism that is the basis of the OP having a romanticism. We love the idea of the self-sufficient man, no culture doesn't. But it is a myth. Clint Eastwood's man with no name had no name because we simply wasn't. The pioneers of my great country and that of the U.S. were not lone survivors. They were communal and tight nit cultural groups. We are social, pack animals. We call dogs pack animals, but look at humans. Admit it.....We like women, but we love our male friends also. No sexuality in that, just instinct, community a need to feel like we belong.

I think the idea of mayhem is a short term phenomena. Perhaps our worst fear come true, perhaps there are moments of utter kaos where all the social rules break down. But I personally believe they are truly moments. In the end we fall into social rules and structure. In a catastrophe there will be a period of unrest, but fall of government isn't going to mean the fall of humanity and social structure. What happens when the communication lines fall, the resource train ends? I think we will be fragmented in smaller communities. I think the communities will have to be self sufficient, but I think the cummunities will exist never the less. There may be skirmishes between groups, but groups will exist. Some folks might think a hoard of ammo and weapons will help. It might for the moments. In the end, it will be the skills of the group and the social bonds of a community that will fetch the highest price.

Thats my take. Maybe the rest of the nihilists out there are just too short sighted to see the concept that if you survive whatever catastrophe that brings the down fall of society, then you are plain lucky. If you plan to survive longer term then you better integrate with a community and be useful. Honestly, I doubt there will be all that much room for tough guys with their guns in the new society. There will be room for brains, willingness to do work and communal trust each other.

The guys with guns who want to be heros.....Well they will find their violence and that will be the end of them....

Now back to some more kung fu movies!!!

 

[XMP]

the basis of the OP having a romanticism

Could you please clarify this part of your statement. Are you referring to the original post with which I started this thread or to the post you responded to?

 

[shecky]

So my questions for you are: Am I off base or is there a real difference of perspective? And if you agree there is a difference of perspective, to what do you attribute it?

Part of it is that this is a survival forum. It naturally skews toward doomers.

Additionally, survivalists (ETA: I don't intend any offense or negative connotations with this term. I use it for lack of better word) tend to skew politically conservative and beyond. They're feeling especially gloomy with the current President. Conspiracy theories have much fertile ground. I tend to think a lot of gloom is tied to political fortunes.

Add a slow economy. This makes folks nervous across the political spectrum.

In contrast, Canada has had a less severe economic downturn. The banking/financial blowup was significantly bigger in the US. Canada feels some of the ripple effects to be sure, but the core hasn't been as shaken as in the US. I've also noticed that Canadian doomers are not completely unheard of. We get a few around here, even if they are not particularly representative of Canada as a whole.

 

[shecky]

History has shown time and time again that communities rally together in a disaster.
Individually we can be tough, but as a group we are more then the sum of our parts

This is an interesting sentiment that I think runs counter to the American myth that many folks on this forum subscribe to. We tend to believe and take pride in the notion of rugged individualism. We pride ourselves on being the jack of all trades and self sufficient.

I find the is a nice thought, that doesn't quite pan out when given serious thought. But there is a germ of truth. The notion of the individual runs very deep in the core of the United States ideal, even if it is more myth than reality.

 

[brians]

Okay, I had my cool down period Half bottle of great merlot and watching IP-man kick some butt....

All that said, I'm almost 40 years old and my perspectives have changed. I'm definitely more communal now and like Koyote (He's almost as old a bastard as I am) I have faith that a core of society will exist. Albeit, I'll give the American West and cowboy, Good the Bad the Ugly heroism that is the basis of the OP having a romanticism. We love the idea of the self-sufficient man, no culture doesn't. But it is a myth. Clint Eastwood's man with no name had no name because we simply wasn't. The pioneers of my great country and that of the U.S. were not lone survivors. They were communal and tight nit cultural groups. We are social, pack animals. We call dogs pack animals, but look at humans. Admit it.....We like women, but we love our male friends also. No sexuality in that, just instinct, community a need to feel like we belong.

I think the idea of mayhem is a short term phenomena. Perhaps our worst fear come true, perhaps there are moments of utter kaos where all the social rules break down. But I personally believe they are truly moments. In the end we fall into social rules and structure. In a catastrophe there will be a period of unrest, but fall of government isn't going to mean the fall of humanity and social structure. What happens when the communication lines fall, the resource train ends? I think we will be fragmented in smaller communities. I think the communities will have to be self sufficient, but I think the cummunities will exist never the less. There may be skirmishes between groups, but groups will exist. Some folks might think a hoard of ammo and weapons will help. It might for the moments. In the end, it will be the skills of the group and the social bonds of a community that will fetch the highest price.

Thats my take. Maybe the rest of the nihilists out there are just too short sighted to see the concept that if you survive whatever catastrophe that brings the down fall of society, then you are plain lucky. If you plan to survive longer term then you better integrate with a community and be useful. Honestly, I doubt there will be all that much room for tough guys with their guns in the new society. There will be room for brains, willingness to do work and communal trust each other.

The guys with guns who want to be heros.....Well they will find their violence and that will be the end of them....

Now back to some more kung fu movies!!!

I have lived in Canada for many years, including Ontario.

How do you think the majority of Canadians would react to disarmament by the government under martial law that was enacted as a result of, for example, hyper-inflation and economic collapse?

 

[kgd]

I have lived in Canada for many years, including Ontario.

How do you think the majority of Canadians would react to disarmament by the government under martial law that was enacted as a result of, for example, hyper-inflation and economic collapse?

I don't think an economic collapse would lead to disarmament. If you have to enact martial law, by virtue of the conditions that resulted in its enactment, you won't really have the ability to enforce it. They might try, but give it a couple of weeks and it will fail. Just like invading another country. Seems easy at first, overwhelming them. But then it all goes to hell on the sustainable authority.

 

[blake g49]

...100 million fanatical muslims don't want to nuke Canada....

I do not believe that I have an alarmist perspective. But I am nevertheless prepared as I can be for what may happen. That is only prudent.

JMO. :thumbup:

Yes they do - we're just not 1st on the list

 

[shecky]

I have lived in Canada for many years, including Ontario.

How do you think the majority of Canadians would react to disarmament by the government under martial law that was enacted as a result of, for example, hyper-inflation and economic collapse?

This is the kind of thing that just seems like a very unlikely scenario. If hyper inflation a economic collapse come about, AND the Canadian government decides to enact martial law and confiscate all arms as a result, I suppose the majority of Canadians would not be very happy about it.

But this is a very unlikely scenario. Even more unlikely in the US, though there are plenty of survivalists who seem to think this is already happening. It borders on science fiction, where the parameters of doom are already set, all we need to fill in the drama. Go outside this little circle of doomers we occupy, and most regular folks think this sort of fatalistic belief is just nutty, sounding like the rantings of the guy pushing a cart through skid row and talking to himself.

 

[d_filgate]

...The notion of the individual runs very deep in the core of the United States ideal, even if it is more myth than reality.

This is the core of how I see Americans as well. It's that basic, "I'll do what I
want, how I want, when I want, and if you don't like it, too bad" kind of
attitude. A like it or lump it mentality.
Extremely Individualistic.

The way I see Canadians is more conciliatory.
More of an attitude of making something work for everyone.
More Community focussed.

I make these statements from over 30 years of dealing with both Canadians
and Americans in business.

Will we ever see roaming hoards of bad guys in our cities when the depression
comes?
Probably not. It really isn't in our psyche to be that way.

Should I prepare for it?
I think that I would be better served by preparing to feed my family when the
depression comes.

Should I go out and arm myself to the teeth?
I could, but I'm not sure that it would serve any useful purpose.
I suppose a .30-06 with a couple of hundred rounds of shells would be useful
if I needed to go hunting.

It may seem fatalistic to some on here, but you have to put into context
where I live. I live in a town of about 80,000 people. Within a 100 mile radius
of where I am, are about 300 lakes. If I need to, I can disappear very quickly
for years and no one would ever know.

In fact, there was a story of an inmate in a minimum security prison just north
of here, who one day just decided that he'd had enough of prison and walked
away. He was a bushman, and it took the authorities almost 3 years to find
him.

I can fish, and if needed, can shoot a deer or moose for meat, my wife is
familiar with edible plants in the bush so I think that we could survive out
there if needed.

 

[koyote]

Originally Posted by coyotebc
History has shown time and time again that communities rally together in a disaster.Individually we can be tough, but as a group we are more then the sum of our parts----

Shecky-
This is an interesting sentiment that I think runs counter to the American myth that many folks on this forum subscribe to. We tend to believe and take pride in the notion of rugged individualism. We pride ourselves on being the jack of all trades and self sufficient.

I find the is a nice thought, that doesn't quite pan out when given serious thought. But there is a germ of truth. The notion of the individual runs very deep in the core of the United States ideal, even if it is more myth than reality.

There's a community aspect to this as well. Self sufficieny, even if not complete- leads to a congregation of equals.When we do band together, in the more individualistic segments of our society, we tend to operate as- cantankerous and argumentative- equals. Doesn't mean we can't take orders when needed, or that we're too "good" to dig a ditch in a community farm, just that we... operate differently.

My experience with Canadians is similar, though- I don't think this is really a root of the difference. And yes, I've been in countries that lacked that self-motivating, self-sufficient, individualistic idea. They tend to have a manana (or Inshallah) attitude towards basic tasks that prevents group excellence.

But this is a very unlikely scenario. Even more unlikely in the US, though there are plenty of survivalists who seem to think this is already happening. It borders on science fiction, where the parameters of doom are already set, all we need to fill in the drama. Go outside this little circle of doomers we occupy, and most regular folks think this sort of fatalistic belief is just nutty, sounding like the rantings of the guy pushing a cart through skid row and talking to himself.

I'm not a doomer- which actually makes me sad. I'd rather a crisis than to watch the slow global erosion of individual decision making, liberties, freedoms that could end us in Kage Baker's 23rd century!

But. science fiction scenarios? Not really. I don't expect a full on Nehemia Scudder theocracy, nor a broad declaration of martial law....

I can see the gun aspect being used against us in several ways. There's already a strong set of 'gun rights' advocates who are really, when you get to the meat of it, advocating gun rights for those they consider the right people. Be that their church, their color, their economic background- it's there. That can easily be twisted.

The US is polarized to an extent that one side of our politics has people publicly calling Democrats traitors and un-american and another side is calling gun owners psychotic paranoid phobics. Imagine a hundred years ago having to actually hide a Democratic voter registration to have a successful military career. Imagine having people alternately make a point of shaking your hand or telling you you "shouldn't drive that car to church" because you have an NRA sticker and a SW asia service ribbon on the van. (These both happen in Davis. To me.)

Fertile ground for tyranny- well meaning, but tyranny- on both sides.

Should I prepare for it?
I think that I would be better served by preparing to feed my family when the
depression comes.

Should I go out and arm myself to the teeth?
I could, but I'm not sure that it would serve any useful purpose.
I suppose a .30-06 with a couple of hundred rounds of shells would be useful
if I needed to go hunting.

Zombie threads aside- it doesn't tkae hordes of bad guys to ruin your life- it takes one. It may seem fatalistic, but I assume that somewhere along the line I'm going to get robbed. Economics of scarcity- especially enforced false scarcity- lead to this. Odds are, it'll be peaceful. But ... if it's not... it would be silly of me not to prepare.

Again on the stocking up of ammo- in many cases it's a two sided practical thing. MOST of us aren't actually sotcking up to shoot 5000 zombies! But we're all concerned with ammunition supplies, hunting, practice, and trade goods.

Guns are strange that way. I like my bows, I can make them, and arrows. not world class, but I can do it. I can't hand make a .30-06 shell. Don't need 5000 rounds of 30-06, either. .22 is a different story, because shooting is fun, and .22 is inexpensive enough that if I take the girls out we can blow through 500 rounds in one range trip. so a 5000 round stockpile becomes- 5 months of shooting. Doesn't sound so bad that way.

And I'm not seeing that as a core part of the questioned difference in attitudes. I know some canadians who keep a lot of ammo on hand- and other stuff. They live in places where it's not hard to have 4 or 5 months of the year where going to a big city is a major adventure.

 

[Mistwalker]

I'm pessimistic about the future; but I only have a dozen rounds of ammo and food for a week. What does that make me? That has to be the worst case scenario: expecting the worst and totally unprepared. I should be my own country.

Lol, You and I are more alike than I realized. Me personally, I keep hearing Sam Elliot's voice saying " If I really need one there will be plenty of them laying right there on the ground".

 

[Marion David Poff]

This is an interesting discussion.

I think that we, in America and Canada, are very sheltered. If you look just about anywhere else, you will see that there have been wars and scuffles all over the place, and fairly recently, historically speaking...

Europe - Bosnia
Asia - Chechnya, and the Middle East
Africa - Congo, Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), Ruwanda, Uganda
South America - Columbia
And here in North America - Mexico

And I am not a real good student of history, I bet the dedicated student of war and conflict could add some items there...

When was the last time we had something like this happen here?

All I am trying to say, is that history proves that it can happen, and it can happen in modern times...

Now, will it be a flu epidemic (which has happened before), or a economic collapse (which has happened before), or a totalitarian government (which has happened before)..... Etcetera. Or a combination... Pick your poison.

With all of that being the case, there is no certainty...

I hope that it will all go really well, and we can continue to hold hands, all singing "Kum Bay Ya" under the banner of international peace...

Or, things might devolve, for a time, into the basics.... You know, food, water, shelter and the ability to keep someone else (zombies, criminals, ninjas, terrorists, plague monkeys, corporations, aliens, community organizers, pirates, fascists, the Chinese, or demon lava) from taking said necessities away from you....

But, history is full of people who said "It can never happen to me." and it is also full of people who thought it was just around the corner, and then much later, they died quietly in their sleep.

So, where does that leave me?

I sincerely hope that I will get to die quietly, in my bed, with my family around me. Having many years of a full and satisfying life behind me.

Alternately, it could get very interesting....

My money is on zombie pirates and plague ninjas, carving the world up into fiefdoms, enslaving us to their demented purposes.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

First of all, I think to bring the US or Canada down to an EOTWAWKI scenario will also bring the rest of the world down with us. The two most likely ways that a single event could cause this are "natural" in origin -- The Yellowstone Caldera having a blowout -- would destroy the US breadbasket, and consequentially, seriously drop the total supply of food in the world, few understand just how much of the world is fed by America.

The other would be a MASSIVE meteor strike -- particularly bad if it happens in an ocean.

That being said, I see a society-wide collapse as unlikely in the extreme.

However, we're interested more in the difference in attitudes IF it happened, yes?

I think the picture most Americans have of TEOTWAWKI look like Africa -- little access to food and medical care. Armed groups (tribes) running around, feeding off of anyone they can victimize, killing, raping maiming, sometimes for the fun of it, sometimes to avenge wrongs -- real or imagined.

If that is What Is To Be, I think we can all agree that it'd be much better to run into that "Pocyclypse" (Mad Max ref) armed than not, yes?

I think that Americans see that as most likely due to the population density and urbanization of most of the US.

I think Canadians have more of an "1800s town" mentality. I.E. the power goes out, but life goes on with a little improvisation. Possibly due to the lack of urbanization except for the eastern section of the country, which I suspect is more like the US than not.

I also think that rural Americans are more like Canadians than urban Americans. Armed heavily (usually having a lot of ammo, rather than a lot of guns) because we just shoot more recreationally, we hunt more, and like the recent presidential SHTF p), because ammo can, and is, hard to come by, so you buy what you can, when you can and keep it. Besides, we have to keep them city folks away so they don't ruin it!

 

[Marion David Poff]

But historically speaking....

Demon Lava has been unfairly discounted as a world-ender. And, if we could go back in time, I bet the residents of Pompeii would suggest a different ranking system...

Just saying.

M