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Fabulous looking knife!!! Can't wait to see this one come together.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
W-2 Chopper for Canineforge-Extended WIP
- Thread starter John White
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2001
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- 1,917
Thanks a bunch, John!
Any quick comments on what Harvey Dean suggested with the power hammer?
John
Any quick comments on what Harvey Dean suggested with the power hammer?
John
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
John Frankl,
It'll be difficult to describe without a power hammer handy, but...
In the earlier photo, I'm actually running the distal taper on the power hammer. For forging the bevels, with a moderate set of drawing dies, run the pointed, tapered, blade in from the ends of the dies, with the cutting edge starting about 1/3 of the way into the (long) side. To draw out the choil, pivot the "tang" in toward the dies as you come to it. To bevel the tip, pivot the tang end away from the dies as you pull the blade back towards you.Keep whacking the blade straight on your anvil, with a wooden mallet. Repeat as needed.
What's that all about???
John
It'll be difficult to describe without a power hammer handy, but...
In the earlier photo, I'm actually running the distal taper on the power hammer. For forging the bevels, with a moderate set of drawing dies, run the pointed, tapered, blade in from the ends of the dies, with the cutting edge starting about 1/3 of the way into the (long) side. To draw out the choil, pivot the "tang" in toward the dies as you come to it. To bevel the tip, pivot the tang end away from the dies as you pull the blade back towards you.Keep whacking the blade straight on your anvil, with a wooden mallet. Repeat as needed.
What's that all about???
John
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
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- 5,668
Shhhhhhhh! You're supposed to keep that stuff a secret!
Oh, I forgot, there's no secrets in knife making.
Don Hanson taught me the very same thing when I went to him for Performance testing.
Regardless, that's gonna be a beauty of a knife and I'm eagerly watching the progress.
Thanks for your time, John.
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
Let's see, now.
In the last session, I'd rough-ground the profiled blade with a new 50 grit belt. I then went over the rough grind with a new 120 grit belt. When you're grinding a blade, you need to use sharp new belts so they'll cut cleanly, rather than "polish the bumps."
At this point, my edge is normally about .035, and I'd be ready to heat treat. Because this is going to be a clay-hardened, hamon seeking blade, I'll clean up my grind lines, go over the blade with a new 220 grit belt, and hand sand to 220 grit, wet/dry paper. My edge gets down a bit less than .030
I hand sand with a 3/8x1 1/4x9 inch piece of Micarta, and 3-M Imperial grit paper. With the back-up board at about 45 degrees, I can really lean into the blade. ( Note the two wrist guards for double carpel tunnel syndrome)
With the blade at 220 grit, I'll use Magic marker to blacken the ricasso, and carefully mark for stamping my name.
Then I'll stamp my name using a hand press to hold the stamp for a couple hard blows.
I'll hand sand the ricasso as before with 220 grit to remove the squeezed up "lips" around my name, and do the same process on the reverse side for the MS stamp. This blade's ready to harden.
W-2 wants to harden somewhere between 1425 and 1500 F, and this'll need to soak for 5-10 minutes, so I tack -weld the tang to a 1/8 " strip of mild steel, so I can clamp it in my heat-treat forge.
Now comes the fun part. I wash the blade with a thin wash of Satinite with a bit of boric acid mixed in. The boric melts first, and it and the Satinite protect the blade from de-carb and scaling.
The hamon is (hopefully) produced by the thicker Satinite applied in a pattern down the spine, and onto the blade.
I made a "Don Fogg" type heat treat drum forge, that I can run at constant "low" temps, using one of Darren Ellis' atmospheric burners. I have a thermocouple in the forge, and it controls very well.
If you look closely into the forge, you can see that the ricasso is almost up to the temp of the blade and tang. When the blade is at an even color, and the forge is running at the desired temp, I'll let it soak for about 8 or so minutes.
Here's the pay-off. I plunge the blade tip first into "room temp" Parks 50 heat-treating oil. I move the blade up and down for a three sec count; out of the oil for three sec; then back in to continue cooling, still moving the blade up and down.
What has happened in this sequence is, the cutting edge, and about half the rest of the blade (that's not covered by thicker clay,) drops from hardening temp to around 800 degrees in less than a second. In about three seconds, that part's down to probably 600, but the heavy clay has held heat, and slowed the spine's cooling.
The spine therefore won't harden, won't form martinsite, but the exposed parts, having gotten "below the nose" in less than a second, will fully harden as the temperature gets lower. The three seconds out of the oil slows down the cooling in the edge, to reduce the strains between the two parts, then back in it goes to continue cooling at a reduced rate.
I'll then take the blade out, let cool to about 120 degrees or less in air, and temper in the digital oven at 450 degrees, for two, one hour cycles.
Hopefully, when I clean all this up tomorrow, I'll have a hamon to look at.
In the last session, I'd rough-ground the profiled blade with a new 50 grit belt. I then went over the rough grind with a new 120 grit belt. When you're grinding a blade, you need to use sharp new belts so they'll cut cleanly, rather than "polish the bumps."
At this point, my edge is normally about .035, and I'd be ready to heat treat. Because this is going to be a clay-hardened, hamon seeking blade, I'll clean up my grind lines, go over the blade with a new 220 grit belt, and hand sand to 220 grit, wet/dry paper. My edge gets down a bit less than .030
I hand sand with a 3/8x1 1/4x9 inch piece of Micarta, and 3-M Imperial grit paper. With the back-up board at about 45 degrees, I can really lean into the blade. ( Note the two wrist guards for double carpel tunnel syndrome)
With the blade at 220 grit, I'll use Magic marker to blacken the ricasso, and carefully mark for stamping my name.
Then I'll stamp my name using a hand press to hold the stamp for a couple hard blows.
I'll hand sand the ricasso as before with 220 grit to remove the squeezed up "lips" around my name, and do the same process on the reverse side for the MS stamp. This blade's ready to harden.
W-2 wants to harden somewhere between 1425 and 1500 F, and this'll need to soak for 5-10 minutes, so I tack -weld the tang to a 1/8 " strip of mild steel, so I can clamp it in my heat-treat forge.
Now comes the fun part. I wash the blade with a thin wash of Satinite with a bit of boric acid mixed in. The boric melts first, and it and the Satinite protect the blade from de-carb and scaling.
The hamon is (hopefully) produced by the thicker Satinite applied in a pattern down the spine, and onto the blade.
I made a "Don Fogg" type heat treat drum forge, that I can run at constant "low" temps, using one of Darren Ellis' atmospheric burners. I have a thermocouple in the forge, and it controls very well.
If you look closely into the forge, you can see that the ricasso is almost up to the temp of the blade and tang. When the blade is at an even color, and the forge is running at the desired temp, I'll let it soak for about 8 or so minutes.
Here's the pay-off. I plunge the blade tip first into "room temp" Parks 50 heat-treating oil. I move the blade up and down for a three sec count; out of the oil for three sec; then back in to continue cooling, still moving the blade up and down.
What has happened in this sequence is, the cutting edge, and about half the rest of the blade (that's not covered by thicker clay,) drops from hardening temp to around 800 degrees in less than a second. In about three seconds, that part's down to probably 600, but the heavy clay has held heat, and slowed the spine's cooling.
The spine therefore won't harden, won't form martinsite, but the exposed parts, having gotten "below the nose" in less than a second, will fully harden as the temperature gets lower. The three seconds out of the oil slows down the cooling in the edge, to reduce the strains between the two parts, then back in it goes to continue cooling at a reduced rate.
I'll then take the blade out, let cool to about 120 degrees or less in air, and temper in the digital oven at 450 degrees, for two, one hour cycles.
Hopefully, when I clean all this up tomorrow, I'll have a hamon to look at.
Last edited:
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- Oct 3, 2002
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John, you've done a lot of work in two days 
I gotta build one of those Fogg HT forges.
Karl, now you need to Shhhhhhhhh.
Forging blades with a power hammer has to be the most fun part of the process and fast
I gotta build one of those Fogg HT forges.
Karl, now you need to Shhhhhhhhh.
Forging blades with a power hammer has to be the most fun part of the process and fast
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- Jul 27, 2003
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- 5,668
See the price on it, Don? They only cost $35.00!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
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- 12,297
Might be better to just buy one then?
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
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- 3,972
This is fantastic, John!!! All this time I thought your knives were kits from Texas Knife supply
Paul
That's what I always thought, Paul. Then, John started sending all of these pictures!
This order has been a real treat. John kept me updated every day or so with steps and images. And, I am even learning more with this WIP. Great job with the WIP thread, John. :thumbup: Looking forward to the rest of this!
- Joe
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- May 28, 2007
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Gret stuff so far John.I look forward to the next group of pics.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
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- 29,205
Great thread, thanks.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
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- 9,437
Very cool my friend!!! 
Why such a fine finish before hardening?
Definitely enjoying this Mr. White! :thumbup:
Why such a fine finish before hardening?
Definitely enjoying this Mr. White!
:thumbup:
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
Nick,.. Nick,.. (what's this Mr.White?)
I normally harden after a 120 grit belt wipe, and a 220 cleaning of the edge to remove any edge nicks that might rise stress. I don't usually go to the finer belts or hand sanding till after hardening and tempering.However...
I'm in the practice, practice, phase of developing hamons. The nano-bot surveilance drone I sent to Don Hanson's shop keeps sending back photos of gigantic piles of mammoth and walrus ivory, and what appears to be two foot diameter W-2 round bar, so I'm on my own.
I had wondered, since I'm still using sandpaper, rather than going to the finger-stones and abrasives, if the 220 was "smearing" the finer detail???( I think it's mostly in the clay placement, but what do I know?)
I'll post up the next session this aft, and we'll see how the hamon looks.
John
I normally harden after a 120 grit belt wipe, and a 220 cleaning of the edge to remove any edge nicks that might rise stress. I don't usually go to the finer belts or hand sanding till after hardening and tempering.However...
I'm in the practice, practice, phase of developing hamons. The nano-bot surveilance drone I sent to Don Hanson's shop keeps sending back photos of gigantic piles of mammoth and walrus ivory, and what appears to be two foot diameter W-2 round bar, so I'm on my own.
I had wondered, since I'm still using sandpaper, rather than going to the finger-stones and abrasives, if the 220 was "smearing" the finer detail???( I think it's mostly in the clay placement, but what do I know?)
I'll post up the next session this aft, and we'll see how the hamon looks.
John
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Messages
- 12,297
John, I shot down one of those drones, sorry I didn't know it was yours.
I HT at a 120 belt finish but nothing wrong with goin to 220. From the looks of
your clay treatment (looks very familiar BTW), you should get a good hamon.
Try less clay on your next.
I HT at a 120 belt finish but nothing wrong with goin to 220. From the looks of
your clay treatment (looks very familiar BTW
), you should get a good hamon. Try less clay on your next.
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
(Quote from Don H.--"Try less clay....": that's a clue, and I'll plan on following up on that one!)
Well, it's Christmas eve, rainy and cool, let's open up the hamon, and see what Santa brought.
The blade has been clay-hardened and tempered. I scrubbed the Satinite off with a brass wire brush before tempering, and it comes pretty clean. Now I'll go over it again with 220 grit, wet sanding with water.
At this point, I'll draw the tang and down into the ricasso to dark blue three times with a torch, to soften the shoulders for filing, and more importantly, to give a "spring temper" to the tang/ricasso area. That, and a radius to the shoulders, will prevent something I once witnessed, the handle snapping cleanly off a chopper at the tang!
Here's where I'll shape the "Moran edge" that works so well on a big chopper. I'll use 60, 30, and 15 micron ceramic belts to set up a convex edge on the last 3/16ths or so of the cutting edge, then buff with a cloth belt and compound. This will "back up" a thin edge with some meat for heavy impacts.
I'm confident of my heat-treatment, using temp controls, and "semi-industrial" methods, but I'll always want to check my edge geometry. Too thin will chip under hard use, and too thick don't cut easy.
Don't chip...
Cuts easy. This is one of the fun parts.
Let me just stick this photo back in. There's about a full day of work in this and the next photo. I'll pick up with wet sanding with 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1000 grit paper. One grit goes vertically, the next at about 30 degrees off, and so on, so I can see that all the scratches from each grit are completely removed. Also, between each grit, I change the water in my cup, and replace the blue tape on my sanding support. Nothing like a big old 320 chunk scratchung up the 800 grit finish.
Here's a posed photo. For some reason I didn't get one of shaping the clip. I do this the hard way, since I want a variable angle clip( for looks??) and can't quite get what I want with a jig. I'll rough it in on the platen, and then draw-file it exactly to scribed lines. Draw-filing, with the handle in your left hand, moves a lot of steel in a hurry. The clip is then sanded to 1000 g .
The facets on the spine are best done with polishing stones, through 600 grit, so as to protect that center ridge. Sandpaper always seems to round over such a shallow angle.
Last thing before etching, I'll file the shoulders with J.P.'s filing jig. I'll file a radius with a 1/8 inch chain-saw file, and the flat with a mill bastard.
(to be continued)
Well, it's Christmas eve, rainy and cool, let's open up the hamon, and see what Santa brought.
The blade has been clay-hardened and tempered. I scrubbed the Satinite off with a brass wire brush before tempering, and it comes pretty clean. Now I'll go over it again with 220 grit, wet sanding with water.
At this point, I'll draw the tang and down into the ricasso to dark blue three times with a torch, to soften the shoulders for filing, and more importantly, to give a "spring temper" to the tang/ricasso area. That, and a radius to the shoulders, will prevent something I once witnessed, the handle snapping cleanly off a chopper at the tang!
Here's where I'll shape the "Moran edge" that works so well on a big chopper. I'll use 60, 30, and 15 micron ceramic belts to set up a convex edge on the last 3/16ths or so of the cutting edge, then buff with a cloth belt and compound. This will "back up" a thin edge with some meat for heavy impacts.
I'm confident of my heat-treatment, using temp controls, and "semi-industrial" methods, but I'll always want to check my edge geometry. Too thin will chip under hard use, and too thick don't cut easy.
Don't chip...
Cuts easy. This is one of the fun parts.
Let me just stick this photo back in. There's about a full day of work in this and the next photo. I'll pick up with wet sanding with 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1000 grit paper. One grit goes vertically, the next at about 30 degrees off, and so on, so I can see that all the scratches from each grit are completely removed. Also, between each grit, I change the water in my cup, and replace the blue tape on my sanding support. Nothing like a big old 320 chunk scratchung up the 800 grit finish.
Here's a posed photo. For some reason I didn't get one of shaping the clip. I do this the hard way, since I want a variable angle clip( for looks??) and can't quite get what I want with a jig. I'll rough it in on the platen, and then draw-file it exactly to scribed lines. Draw-filing, with the handle in your left hand, moves a lot of steel in a hurry. The clip is then sanded to 1000 g .
The facets on the spine are best done with polishing stones, through 600 grit, so as to protect that center ridge. Sandpaper always seems to round over such a shallow angle.
Last thing before etching, I'll file the shoulders with J.P.'s filing jig. I'll file a radius with a 1/8 inch chain-saw file, and the flat with a mill bastard.
(to be continued)
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,142
Now were're ready to etch this puppy, after all this effort.
I'll clean the blade THOROUGHLY, with original 409, and dry with new Scott towels. Then etch in ferric chloride for about 8 seconds.
Wow, look at that!!... Actually, I'm cheating here, this look develops after several cycles of etching, polishing with semi-chrome, cleaning, re-etching, polishing, etc. Repeat 'till you're satisfied, or too tired to do anymore.
Here's your reward, (or punishment, as may be)
To this point, on a stag handle like this, I'm a little over half done. On knives with complex, frame-type handles, this might be only 1/4 to 1/3 of the time on the knife.
I'll clean the blade THOROUGHLY, with original 409, and dry with new Scott towels. Then etch in ferric chloride for about 8 seconds.
Wow, look at that!!... Actually, I'm cheating here, this look develops after several cycles of etching, polishing with semi-chrome, cleaning, re-etching, polishing, etc. Repeat 'till you're satisfied, or too tired to do anymore.
Here's your reward, (or punishment, as may be)
To this point, on a stag handle like this, I'm a little over half done. On knives with complex, frame-type handles, this might be only 1/4 to 1/3 of the time on the knife.
Last edited:
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- Oct 16, 2001
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- 1,917
Thank you for all the effort and info!