Was: Slipjoint Renaissance? Now: Imports vs. Domestic

[shecky]

I have no problem with quality imports. But cheap imports made from inferior materials do not improve the market.

Says who? How many a knife nut got into knives as a result of a cheap knife? I know I did. It was a cheap knife... an cheap American knife that would be put to shame by any Rough Rider today.

They are dangerous--they are likely to break during use and cause injury in a manner that a quality knife would not. They are often the result of dishonest and unsavory business practices. None of these are good for the American knife market.

Again, says who? Actual dangerous knives won't survive on the market very long. And truly "dishonest and unsavory business practices" seem to be in the eye of the beholder around here. Outside actual counterfeits, a relatively rare occurrence, I don't see much in the way of dishonest and unsavory business practices from any knife company here or abroad.

There are many inexpensive knives on the market (and many of those are produced in the US) that will last more than a lifetime with bare minimal care.

This applies to every imported cheap knife I've seen, too. I've seen many a cheap imported knife that will last a lifetime with minimal care. They won't self destruct, they will not fall apart in use, and as long as I don't drop them in the ocean, they will outlast me.

More models are being produced all the time--not because of competition from cheap imports, but because of a revival of interest in older patterns that have not been seen on the market for a generation or more. And, of course, Bastid is right. A lot of the blame can be laid at the doors of the custom makers. Whether or not we collect handmade knives, we can thank the makers for setting the bar for quality work and sharing their designs. All of us who collect knives, custom and production, owe them a big vote of thanks.

A lot of blame can be laid at Rough Rider and Frost for aggressively offering old patterns that haven't been made by the likes of Case or Queen for decades. And new patterns in the traditional style, at high quality and low prices. If anything, I begrudge some of these American companies for largely abandoning the market for user knives and focusing on the collector market. Custom makers have become a viable business model because Americans are more prosperous than ever, even with the current economic downturn. A boutique market for fine things has grown. Much of that prosperity is the result of low cost goods from overseas eating a smaller chunk of your hard earned money, leaving you with more disposable income.

The revival in interest in old patterns may be genuine, but it doesn't seem to be coming at the expense of modern designs. The market for non traditional knives is just as strong as it's ever been. Markets have expanded, not simply shifted.

 

[shaldag]

Again, says who? Actual dangerous knives won't survive on the market very long. And truly "dishonest and unsavory business practices" seem to be in the eye of the beholder around here. Outside actual counterfeits, a relatively rare occurrence, I don't see much in the way of dishonest and unsavory business practices from any knife company here or abroad.

Individual knives do not have to survive very long. Cheap knock-offs, which you may or may not regard as counterfeit, are still plentiful, and my contention is that they damage the knife industry. You seem to feel that they provide a stimulus for the US knife industry to streamline; I think that many of these companies pirate US (and other) designs, and produce shoddy workmanship with labor compensated at levels that the US market cannot tolerate, and thus cause considerable damage to the industry. Of course, that would not be possible if there were not people who do not care about pirated designs, cheap workmanship, and labor practices undercutting the livelihood of their neighbors.

Personally, I do care.
I personally do not believe that the wages of the people in the knife industry (whether they are working at Spyderco or Canal Street) are high enough that they can afford to have them reduced (because of foreign competition) so the company does not close. These companies have expenses that the foreign ones do not--including design (they do not pirate those of others), health benefits and reasonable compensation for the workers (and we are not talking Wall-Street level by any means here), insurance, customer service, etc etc.

Personally, I like it that way, and am willing to pay to support these practices. I like th idea that the knives that I carry are not only useful and aesthetic tools, but also represent workmanship that was performed in a moral (as opposed to simply legal) manner. You may feel differently. Hopefully, there are not too many people who have similar feelings about your job.

 

[knifeaholic]

I would say that we definitley have more traditional pocketknives available today than we did say in the 80's and for much of the 90's.

But to say that we have more than "at any time in history" would be a stretch, at least from American manufacturers.

In the pre-WWII years, there were at least 30 major US manufacturers of pocketknives, and dozens of smaller ones. The larger firms offered mind-boggling arrays of different patterns. I recently added up all of the different pocketknives in a Case price list from 1940 and they offered over 500 patterns at that time...and Case was actually not one of the largest and that was a low point for the industry due to the depression. I have never tried to add up Remington's offerings but my guess would be that they had 800 or more pocket knife patterns in their line at any given time.

That is to say nothing of the big hardware brands like KEEN KUTTER and DIAMOND EDGE...again hundreds upon hundreds of patterns offered under each of these and other brand names.

Take a look at a Remington or Cattaraugus catalog reprint and you will see what I am talking about.

 

[mnblade]

I would say that we definitley have more traditional pocketknives available today than we did say in the 80's and for much of the 90's.

But to say that we have more than "at any time in history" would be a stretch ...

Amen, brother.

 

[mp510]

Even though they are inexpensive imports, I believe that the china line Bucks and the Winchesters (and Outdoor life, Colt, even Taylor Schrade) that are on the shelves at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Dicks, Sports Authority are probably what do the most for traditional pocket knives. They are knives that people see and buy- and the quality is usually fine for a user. Ihate to say it but I don't remember seeing as many of them or as much selection on big box store shelves before Schrade went under.

 

[knifeaholic]

Even though they are inexpensive imports, I believe that the china line Bucks and the Winchesters (and Outdoor life, Colt, even Taylor Schrade) that are on the shelves at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Dicks, Sports Authority are probably what do the most for traditional pocket knives. They are knives that people see and buy- and the quality is usually fine for a user. Ihate to say it but I don't remember seeing as many of them or as much selection on big box store shelves before Schrade went under.

Just curious, which big box stores are you looking at?

The Sports Authority near me has Gerber & Kershaw tacticals but zero slipjoints. Last I went into a Kmart they had maybe a half dozen inported SJ patterns. Wal Mart near me has maybe seven or eight Chinese Buck SJ's and the rest all lockbacks and multitools. Dic's near me has maybe 2-3 Chuinese Winchester patterns and a few SAK's.

Maybe they vary their selections in different areas of the country. I do remember in the 1990's, Sport's Auth and WM both ahde great selections, including some CASE. Believe it or not, Kmart also sold CASE from about 1985-1989.

 

[moonwilson]

I agree that there are a lot of wonderful knives being made right now. We may be experiencing a renaissance of sorts in terms of quality and pattern availability. But I do not think we are experiencing a renaissance in terms of general acceptance of slipjoints. If anything, it seems that traditional knives are dying out. I can remember going to almost any hardware, sporting goods, or even drug store and seeing a Schrade, Buck or Case display. In my area, the only place that has a slipjoint case is Ace Hardware. And that case is being filled with cheap junk. I have looked very hard, and I have found precisely ONE Case display- in my city of around 5 million people. All of the hardware stores have old, neglected Schrade displays that are full of Magnum and Steel Warrior knives. That doesn't sound like much of a renaissance to me.

More and more people are living in cities. And people in cities don't really need or want pocket knives anymore. The big box stores carry only SAKs and junker knives. Disposable blade "superknives" appear to be replacing the slipjoint as the working man's knife of choice. There are very high quality traditional knives being made right now. But I think the uptick in quality is a response to pressure from the market shrinking. In this market, if you don't make good knives, you won't be in business very long.

 

[dalee100]

Hi,

I do agree that today we have a wonderful selection of pocket knives. Better than at any time I can remember in my 50+ years of life.

But what I think what make this a "renaissance" more than anything else is the fact that we can now shop the entire planet for what we want via the internet. We are no longer limited to what ever the local hardware store carried. And growing up for me, all that was available was Schrade, Imperials, very rarely Camillus, and later in the '80's and 90's, Buck 110's and 119's. And in only one or two patterns. As an example, I never saw or touched a Case made knife until I bought one on-line this year.

If it weren't for the ability of the individual to now shop everywhere at anytime, we probably wouldn't have this renaissance today.

dalee

 

[Blues]

It bears repeating that the Chinese aren't the only manufacturers of "junk" and to keep this thread apolitical let's just refer to inferior knives (or junk as the case may be) without appending a nationality to it. You can make your same point about quality vs. the lack thereof (and its current availability) without devolving into a political diatribe.

If you must refer to the origin of knives, let's just call 'em imports. Folks here are smart enough to understand and we won't have to push the forum in directions it wasn't intended for.

Thanks.

 

[knifeaholic]

I agree 100% that the internet has enabled whatever rennaissance we are seeing. Small companies like Queen, GEC, Canal Street, Northwoods, et al would more than likely not be doing what they are doing without the internet.

The only two US manufactuers of traditional slipjoints that have the capacity to serve a national retail store market are Case and Bear. (I don't count Buck in that because they only made 4 SJ patterns in house).

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

(I don't count Buck in that because they only made 4 SJ patterns in house).

Buck added some more USA-made slippies to the lineup this year. :thumbup:

 

[shecky]

But to say that we have more than "at any time in history" would be a stretch, at least from American manufacturers.

Why are you arbitrarily setting a limit at American manufacturers? That would certainly support your point. But my point is that "traditional" knife manufacture is no longer limited to North America and Europe, nor is there any reason it should be.

Thanks, Blues, for that point. Cheap knives are not tied to any nationality. My first knives were American made clunkers. This is a good thing that American skill and pay levels are not well utilized making inexpensive, sometimes crappy, goods. The extent that they still do is precisely because folks are willing to buy American rather than buy value.

 

[knifeaholic]

Buck added some more USA-made slippies to the lineup this year. :thumbup:

Great to hear that...do you know which patterns/handles were added?

 

[sunnyd]

.. The extent that they still do is precisely because folks are willing to buy American rather than buy value.

It is apparent to me, and likely the majority here that what you term value is only to do with mere dollars and cents and not the quality of the product when you consider the longevity of the knife and what it will stand up to when put to use. That is completely short sited and makes no sense whatsoever..

I completely disagree with everything you said thus far on the subject. But hey, to each his own.


Anthony

 

[rifon2]

But what I think what make this a "renaissance" more than anything else is the fact that we can now shop the entire planet for what we want via the internet. [...]
If it weren't for the ability of the individual to now shop everywhere at anytime, we probably wouldn't have this renaissance today.

I agree 100% that the internet has enabled whatever rennaissance we are seeing. Small companies like Queen, GEC, Canal Street, Northwoods, et al would more than likely not be doing what they are doing without the internet.

Great point - the small slipjoint manufacturers (and other small companies) have benefitted hugely from the internet marketplace.

And I do think we're seeing a renaissance in the availability of quality slipjoints in general.

 

[jackknife]

After thinking about this for a bit, I wonder if we are in a sunset period of knife carry at all, let alone renaissance. Yes we have new knife companies, but how many of the old ones are gone forever?

I remember when a man put on his trousers in the moring, and it was a given that he had a small pocket knife in one of the pockets. Now, it seems like most men don't even carry a knife at all, exept for the affitionados like us. In urban areas I would guess that 8 out of 10 people do not edc a knife.

I wonder how many of the new knives are being bought by repeat customers who have two dozen knives already, vs somebody who does not have a knife but deceided they needed a small pocket knife because a man is supposed to have one. In other words, a one knife man.

I hope to see a knife renaissance, even if it's just to carry something sharp, imported or not.

 

[mckgreg]

I agree with ya SunnyD. Longevity under use is where value is in a working pocket knife. Like grandad use to say, " A poor man can't afford cheap shoes". If you are buying them just to look at then that is a different story.
Greg

 

[BJE]

I would say that we definitley have more traditional pocketknives available today than we did say in the 80's and for much of the 90's.

But to say that we have more than "at any time in history" would be a stretch, at least from American manufacturers.

In the pre-WWII years, there were at least 30 major US manufacturers of pocketknives, and dozens of smaller ones. The larger firms offered mind-boggling arrays of different patterns. I recently added up all of the different pocketknives in a Case price list from 1940 and they offered over 500 patterns at that time...and Case was actually not one of the largest and that was a low point for the industry due to the depression. I have never tried to add up Remington's offerings but my guess would be that they had 800 or more pocket knife patterns in their line at any given time.

That is to say nothing of the big hardware brands like KEEN KUTTER and DIAMOND EDGE...again hundreds upon hundreds of patterns offered under each of these and other brand names.

Take a look at a Remington or Cattaraugus catalog reprint and you will see what I am talking about.

I aggree. It is nice to see some companies improving quality, the Case knives I just bought are as good or better than some from decades ago, and definately better than the 90's models.

I also aggree that cheap imports are not helping us and I personally don't support them. There are too many good domestic companies to buy from to spend my money on junck that is putting my neighbor out of a job.

 

[sunnyd]

I agree with ya SunnyD. Longevity under use is where value is in a working pocket knife. Like grandad use to say, " A poor man can't afford cheap shoes". If you are buying them just to look at then that is a different story.
Greg

Well, I recon we must of had a similar breed of kin folks..

My Uncle was famous for quoting my Grandpop for saying,, "Good quality work is not cheap, and cheap work is not good quality!"

This still rings true today, IMO.

Anthony

 

[shecky]

It is apparent to me, and likely the majority here that what you term value is only to do with mere dollars and cents and not the quality of the product when you consider the longevity of the knife and what it will stand up to when put to use. That is completely short sited and makes no sense whatsoever..

I have no reason to believe that inexpensive imports will not last as long as any American made knife. They are durable, made with decent steel, and in some cases, even outshine the craftsmanship exhibited in US made knives. This is very much a dollars and cents evaluation. If American knives cannot compete on such a level, they're really in bad shape. That the imports also tend to be inexpensive makes them that much more attractive.

Traditional American manufacturers increasingly thrive on cachet, nostalgia, and to a lesser extent, patriotism. To the extent that their existence depends on protectionism is unfortunate and will ultimately mark their demise. There's only so much goodwill people are willing to extend before the welfare dries up and US based companies have to compete on their merits, not their nationality.