-
All For Sale threads must have a pic showing the knife being sold with written date listed, your username & Bladeforums or BFC to prevent photo harvesting from elsewhere - scammers hate this one trick! The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Was: Slipjoint Renaissance? Now: Imports vs. Domestic
- Thread starter kamagong
- Start date
Well at least you are entertaining, I'll give you that.
A little suggestion for you if I may:
You really should end these silly statements with, "In my opinion". Since obviously no one else seems to view it as you do. It kind of lessens the apparent serious hatred and ludicrous bias you have for the greatest country in the World.
Anthony
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 26,289
I forget where, but I recall reading a study that showed that knife carry has actually taken a sharp increase over the past decade.
Well at least you are entertaining, I'll give you that.
A little suggestion for you if I may:
You really should end these silly statements with, "In my opinion". Since obviously no one else seems to view it as you do. It kind of lessens the apparent serious hatred and ludicrous bias you have for the greatest country in the World.
The range of quality of imports isn't really a matter of opinion but fact. Same with the cost of labor in some foreign countries.
Insisting that imports are universally junk is less a matter of opinion, and more a matter of denial.
It would be nice to actually argue against the points I make. Insisting that I have a hatred for "the greatest country in the World", by which I presume you mean the US, is not an actual refutation of what I say.
I wouldn't be surprised.
There seems to be a common meme that pops up around here from time to time, claiming that we're all going to hell and a handbasket, evidence for and/or because the sheeple are too scared of knives, so on and so forth.
This sentiment seems to be a nice way for folks to work up their outrage. But I've never seen any credible data to back that up. On the contrary, as I pointed out earlier, knives are more numerous and less expensive and at higher quality than ever before. This situation does not develop in a vacuum, but is the result of a healthy demand for such items.
Mr. Shecky,
You have made NOT one single point. Which is mine. You do nothing but spew your ridiculous one sided opinion with 0.0 facts to back them up. Until you find facts(which you cannot) you will NEVER be taken seriously.
Anthony
First of all, if you read the testing, and impressions of quality that many people have done over the last few years on this and other forums, you will find that many good looking knives from "emerging nations" are in fact substandard!!
I don't consider 440A hardened to R50 an acceptable blade steel!
Second, if you factor in the known environmental disasters that "emerging factories" have created,
And third, add in the slave like exploitation, and imposed health problems these emerging people work under, you would NOT participate in any of it.
Shipping goods across our oceans, and the attendant pollution it causes has to be seriously reconsidered!!
Doesn't anyone wonder how much longer we will be able to eat fish, and breath the air??? Our childrens' children will curse us mightily.
Walk to the store! Buy a locally made knife! Live long and prosper!
I don't consider 440A hardened to R50 an acceptable blade steel!
Second, if you factor in the known environmental disasters that "emerging factories" have created,
And third, add in the slave like exploitation, and imposed health problems these emerging people work under, you would NOT participate in any of it.
Shipping goods across our oceans, and the attendant pollution it causes has to be seriously reconsidered!!
Doesn't anyone wonder how much longer we will be able to eat fish, and breath the air??? Our childrens' children will curse us mightily.
Walk to the store! Buy a locally made knife! Live long and prosper!
But Charlie, You are dealing with factual data here. This fellow seems to no nothing of the facts and seems to be only obsessed with just his one sided unsupported opinion. Further, he took a perfectly serious thread and hijacked it to use to bash the this country, IMO.
Good post and thanks,
Anthony
Elliott, this is the first time I have felt bad about being moved! This discussion is so important, and so right to the heart of every principle we Americans (even me, living out of the country) hold dear, it transcends forumness or threadness! It's a discussion that should not be interrupted and should not be moved.
When we can figure out the RIGHT thing to do every time, the world will turn the corner, and we will finally deserve this abused orb.
When we can figure out the RIGHT thing to do every time, the world will turn the corner, and we will finally deserve this abused orb.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 49,329
Charlie, the fact that the discussion continues in "Feedback" in no way constrains the ability for it to carry on. Those who wish to participate may do so freely. There is no interruption, no editing or any other insertion or deletion.
However, though I personally agree with you that there are important fundamental issues involved in the discussion, I disagree with your assessment that somehow the matter is at the core of all that Americans hold dear. (Be nice if such were the case but I think you are painting with an overly broad brush and making unfounded assumptions about what is in the hearts and minds of our countrymen.)
That said, this discussion, which has been hashed out in other threads before this one, is still available to all who wish to participate.
Imported knives are not bad because they are imported. some imported knives are just fine, thank you. For those of us in the Traditional forum, many beautiful slipjoints are made in Seki City, Solingen, and other traditional knifemaking areas worldwide.
As far as China goes, the Spyderco Byrd line is made there, and they are excellent knives for the price. Are they the same quality as the Spyderco line made in the US or Japan? Not a chance.
The objections to the knives made overseas in many countries are that they use substandard materials, pay substandard compensation, and pirate designs.
Shecky seems to feel that similar complaints apply to US companies. Although a US company can use inferior materials, they do not have the option of using undercompensated labor, because of the laws there. As far as pirating designs, again, some US companies are guilty of that as well. However, they are much more vulnerable to legal action than are companies based overseas. Even so, many, if not most, knife companies do not have the financial resources to fight these battles--they rely on the consumer to fight with their wallets. Happily, many in the knife community do exactly that. I will not purchase pirated designs, nor will I purchase from a company that uses them.
There are, of course many people who are completely unaware of the problem. Those folks, who are not knowledgeable about the knife world because to them, a knife is like a hammer to many of us. Some of these folks will automatically take a cheaper option--they don't really care what kind of hammer they buy. (If hammer is not a good example, then use t-shirt, shoes, or anything else that you don't care about.)
There are also people in the knife community who do (at least in theory) have enough knowledge of the knife manufacturing world to understand quality differences, and unscrupulous economic practices--and simply do not care.
A quote like the following one iss a good example:
In general, a good quality knife will outlast an inexpensive one--you get what you pay for.
If a foreign knife is cheaper, what are the possible reasons? Materials, workmanship, labor costs.
Would Shecky agree that knives using inferior materials and with inferior workmanship are, well, inferior?
So then, cheap labor is the problem. Shecky thinks that "If American knives cannot compete on such a level, they're really in bad shape."
Perhaps the cost of living in the US means that American workers cannot work for the same prices as workers in say, China or Pakistan.
Perhaps American labor laws mean that their workplaces must be safer, and the companies must comply with a number of OSHA laws and insurance rules--in theory, for their workers' benefit.
How much is the average workers' salary at Spyderco, Case, Queen?
How many Ferraris, Porsches, Lexuses (Lexi?) do you see in the parking lots?
Perhaps those workers want health insurance for their families.
Perhaps those workers dream to send their children to University.
How much does Shecky wish to reduce their salaries so that they can compete with knives made in Pakistan?
How much is a good working knife from any of the above companies?
I interact with a number of knifemakers. Some well-known, others not so.
Some full-time, others not so. None of them are particularly wealthy. The only things that they have to sell--to feed their families--are their ideas, designs, and abilities. How do you think those folks feel when they see a knife made in a third-world country that looks exactly like one of their designs? Have any of you ever been to a Blade show and seen people eagerly photographing a new design? People clearly not customers or press? I have seen exactly that.
There are some people who, if it saves them a buck or two, are willing to see their neighbor lose their job--because the neighbor's company cannot compete with one that pays $2/hour and no health insurance. So be it. I sincerely wonder what those people do for a living, and I sincerely hope that it is something outside of my profession, so that I will not have to interact with them more than necessary. Life is too short.
I am glad that many people in the knife community (nicely represented on these forums) feel differently. We like to see that people working in the industry that makes our little hobby possible receive adequate compensation for their work. We like the idea that some companies are still in the US. Yes, there is nostalgia involved. I, for one, plead guilty. I like having American industry around. But that is not my main concern. I really like the idea that my little hobby enables some of my neighbors to make an honest living and feel pride in their work.
As far as China goes, the Spyderco Byrd line is made there, and they are excellent knives for the price. Are they the same quality as the Spyderco line made in the US or Japan? Not a chance.
The objections to the knives made overseas in many countries are that they use substandard materials, pay substandard compensation, and pirate designs.
Shecky seems to feel that similar complaints apply to US companies. Although a US company can use inferior materials, they do not have the option of using undercompensated labor, because of the laws there. As far as pirating designs, again, some US companies are guilty of that as well. However, they are much more vulnerable to legal action than are companies based overseas. Even so, many, if not most, knife companies do not have the financial resources to fight these battles--they rely on the consumer to fight with their wallets. Happily, many in the knife community do exactly that. I will not purchase pirated designs, nor will I purchase from a company that uses them.
There are, of course many people who are completely unaware of the problem. Those folks, who are not knowledgeable about the knife world because to them, a knife is like a hammer to many of us. Some of these folks will automatically take a cheaper option--they don't really care what kind of hammer they buy. (If hammer is not a good example, then use t-shirt, shoes, or anything else that you don't care about.)
There are also people in the knife community who do (at least in theory) have enough knowledge of the knife manufacturing world to understand quality differences, and unscrupulous economic practices--and simply do not care.
A quote like the following one iss a good example:
In general, a good quality knife will outlast an inexpensive one--you get what you pay for.
If a foreign knife is cheaper, what are the possible reasons? Materials, workmanship, labor costs.
Would Shecky agree that knives using inferior materials and with inferior workmanship are, well, inferior?
So then, cheap labor is the problem. Shecky thinks that "If American knives cannot compete on such a level, they're really in bad shape."
Perhaps the cost of living in the US means that American workers cannot work for the same prices as workers in say, China or Pakistan.
Perhaps American labor laws mean that their workplaces must be safer, and the companies must comply with a number of OSHA laws and insurance rules--in theory, for their workers' benefit.
How much is the average workers' salary at Spyderco, Case, Queen?
How many Ferraris, Porsches, Lexuses (Lexi?) do you see in the parking lots?
Perhaps those workers want health insurance for their families.
Perhaps those workers dream to send their children to University.
How much does Shecky wish to reduce their salaries so that they can compete with knives made in Pakistan?
How much is a good working knife from any of the above companies?
I interact with a number of knifemakers. Some well-known, others not so.
Some full-time, others not so. None of them are particularly wealthy. The only things that they have to sell--to feed their families--are their ideas, designs, and abilities. How do you think those folks feel when they see a knife made in a third-world country that looks exactly like one of their designs? Have any of you ever been to a Blade show and seen people eagerly photographing a new design? People clearly not customers or press? I have seen exactly that.
There are some people who, if it saves them a buck or two, are willing to see their neighbor lose their job--because the neighbor's company cannot compete with one that pays $2/hour and no health insurance. So be it. I sincerely wonder what those people do for a living, and I sincerely hope that it is something outside of my profession, so that I will not have to interact with them more than necessary. Life is too short.
I am glad that many people in the knife community (nicely represented on these forums) feel differently. We like to see that people working in the industry that makes our little hobby possible receive adequate compensation for their work. We like the idea that some companies are still in the US. Yes, there is nostalgia involved. I, for one, plead guilty. I like having American industry around. But that is not my main concern. I really like the idea that my little hobby enables some of my neighbors to make an honest living and feel pride in their work.
I think there is a synergy between the internet and the knife trade that brought about the renaissance. We can all find old collectable knives at our finger tips without leaving the living room, or even order new ones from web sites of knife dealers. Paypal built a bridge between wary consumers not wanting to give thier card #s on line enabling shoppers to have more protection of thier financial accounts.
"However, though I personally agree with you that there are important fundamental issues involved in the discussion, I disagree with your assessment that somehow the matter is at the core of all that Americans hold dear. (Be nice if such were the case but I think you are painting with an overly broad brush and making unfounded assumptions about what is in the hearts and minds of our countrymen.)"[quote; Blues]
I am hoping to ADD to what is in the hearts and minds of our countrymen Elliott. If I am not mistaken, we all very much enjoy our hard-earned freedom of choice in many areas of how we live our lives. We, and I speak for the close neighbors in Canada, as well as well as Americans, must recognize the responsibilities that go with the freedom we treasure. What good is any of it if we destroy our environment; even our society. Buying manufactured products from places where industry is allowed to pollute, and exploit people to the point of slavery is not good for us. It destroys the fragile planet we live on, and make no mistake, there is a spiritual price to pay when we use goods produced by exploitation. It enures us to compassion. Which is a prime ingredient in senseless war. These are leaps of thought, but valid IMO.
I admit I am an idealist. And I still believe that given the right information, all people can make right choices, choices that will enhance the lives of all of us, and of following generations.
The simplest choices have world-wide ramifications. The plastics I reuse and recycle in my whole life, may not undo the environmental damage that a large SUV does to the environment in a weekend trip! But it's the right thing for me to do. As is driving a smaller car.
Buying a locally produced knife helps ensure my neighbor can afford to feed his/her kids, and maybe even have health insurance. And it cuts back by a drop or two the crude diesel spewed into our air to ship knives to me
Consuming less, and locally has never been more important. But it's always been better for our health and for our country, and for the planet. And for our spirit.
I am hoping to ADD to what is in the hearts and minds of our countrymen Elliott. If I am not mistaken, we all very much enjoy our hard-earned freedom of choice in many areas of how we live our lives. We, and I speak for the close neighbors in Canada, as well as well as Americans, must recognize the responsibilities that go with the freedom we treasure. What good is any of it if we destroy our environment; even our society. Buying manufactured products from places where industry is allowed to pollute, and exploit people to the point of slavery is not good for us. It destroys the fragile planet we live on, and make no mistake, there is a spiritual price to pay when we use goods produced by exploitation. It enures us to compassion. Which is a prime ingredient in senseless war. These are leaps of thought, but valid IMO.
I admit I am an idealist. And I still believe that given the right information, all people can make right choices, choices that will enhance the lives of all of us, and of following generations.
The simplest choices have world-wide ramifications. The plastics I reuse and recycle in my whole life, may not undo the environmental damage that a large SUV does to the environment in a weekend trip! But it's the right thing for me to do. As is driving a smaller car.
Buying a locally produced knife helps ensure my neighbor can afford to feed his/her kids, and maybe even have health insurance. And it cuts back by a drop or two the crude diesel spewed into our air to ship knives to me
Consuming less, and locally has never been more important. But it's always been better for our health and for our country, and for the planet. And for our spirit.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
Shaldag, your thoughts mirror mine.
You're simply denying reality here. You state that I have made no points. Additionally, I have no data to back up the points I have not made.
You seem to have taken quite a bit of offense at points you say I am not making. I guess it doesn't matter when the only charge you've managed to throw at me is that I hate America. A charge pulled out of thin air, I might add.
waynorth said:
Funny, I've looked at the testing and impressions of knives from emerging nations over the last few years, on this very forum, and have come to the conclusion that they are not in fact substandard.
Where is this 440A hardened to Hrc 50? I have not heard that claim being made, let alone substantiated. And why is that worse than a Douk Douk run at the same hardness (according to Garret Wade).
The rest of your rant reads like some left wing rant with little basis in reality. This kind of all-but-the-kitchen-sink argument sounds a little desperate.
shaldag said:
The problem with these charges are that they are blanket statements that apply no more to any foreign country than they would apply to the US. All those charges can be levied at US based companies from time to time. Yet, it would be a mistake to say that US manufacturers use substandard materials, pay substandard compensation, and pirate designs.
shaldag said:
Yes. However, the charge of inferiority seems overstated most of the time. Lets take for example any of the several Rough Rider knives I own. Some of them outshine Case knives I've seen in workmanship and materials. Definitely better than the knives I've seen from Bear and Son, made in the Good ole' USA.
Yes.
None. I think if people want to earn more, they need to find a way to earn more. If that means quitting the knife business, so be it. The world does not owe knife makers a living, any more than broom makers, car makers etc. Yes, life is tough. Get over it already.
This is the way a free society works. Thankfully, it's still mostly the way the US works. And the US has done quite well by it, even with today's economic climate. Not only that, it's done countries like China very well, too, where prosperity has improved the lives of people such that the average person is enjoying a better existence than ever before in history, and made the dictatorial government less and less relevant. Free trade is wonderful way to improve the lot of the most people.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2007
- Messages
- 34,020
I think this is a very important point and factor. If there is an upsurge in knife production and interest by enthusiasts(even if the average man carries knives less)it is due to the medium we communicate in. The internet. As I live in Europe, just a decade or so ago I would not have been able to hear about still less buy the vast spectrum of knives that are now easily available-if you have the cash. imports to me are all American knives of course and good thing too
America offers a huge array of cutlers many with outstanding pedigree, but fine cutlers exist in many European lands(except sadly England it seems)in Japan and some from China too like it or not. I do very much agree with the fears and reservations many have about knives possibly being produced by workers who are grossly exploited to keep costs down(a nasty by product of capitalism sometimes) What bothers me at the moment is that some well known cutlers may get caught up in the ever spreading financial crisis, they may have taken on unwise loans and could soon be facing bankruptcy. I hope not, but it is very possible.Therefore, it might be as Jackknife pointed out that this is a sunset(splendid) of knife making in fact, the candle burning brightest etc. Let's hope not:thumbup:
Well shecky,
I am starting to realize that the reputation you possess here in the BladeForums community is well earned and quite deserved! When you first entered this thread with your opinions several of us politely traded opposing views with you and left it at that hoping we could move on and continue the civilized discussion relating to the subject at hand.. But for you, that just wasn't enough. You continued to escalate your banter and increase your biased opinions without supporting evidence..
In fact, you somehow successfully hijacked this thread from the original poster in a completely different direction, so much so that it has ended up being re-named and in the FEEDBACK sub-forum which was obviously not the OP's original intention..
OK,, So be it.. Fact is, you still have offered nothing in the way of supporting evidence by either photographs or review threads or anything of the kind comparing the so-called "OUTSHINING" of USA brands vs. Chinese brands which you name in your above post # 56.. In the end its nothing more than usless conjecture.
Anthony
I am starting to realize that the reputation you possess here in the BladeForums community is well earned and quite deserved! When you first entered this thread with your opinions several of us politely traded opposing views with you and left it at that hoping we could move on and continue the civilized discussion relating to the subject at hand.. But for you, that just wasn't enough. You continued to escalate your banter and increase your biased opinions without supporting evidence..
In fact, you somehow successfully hijacked this thread from the original poster in a completely different direction, so much so that it has ended up being re-named and in the FEEDBACK sub-forum which was obviously not the OP's original intention..
OK,, So be it.. Fact is, you still have offered nothing in the way of supporting evidence by either photographs or review threads or anything of the kind comparing the so-called "OUTSHINING" of USA brands vs. Chinese brands which you name in your above post # 56.. In the end its nothing more than usless conjecture.
Anthony
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
- Messages
- 2,624
Curious , what do you do for a living ?
We could have had this discussion 30 years ago.
Except we would be talking about taking the clothing trade out of NYC in to the non-unionised South (work unions nothing else!!!)
The wages in the South were much cheaper and it killed the unionised sweat shops in NYC.
Next step, the jobs went further south, to Mexico, then to the Far East.
And it follows the cheap labor market, to perhaps China as the final frontier, as the labor pool is so vast.
When you buy Fruit of the Loom tee shirts, who looks for the AFL-CIO mark?
Is the tee shirt less quality because of less expensive labor and less expensive material?
So why the big questions now when it comes to knives?
We have major quality manufacturing companies (Buck) using factories in China.
The slippy designs are hardly pirateable!
These are standard copiable patterns.
We see that some $10 knives are quite good such as our Rough Rider thread.
So please explain why Joe in the street should not buy these knives?
Any other knife manufacturer selling knives at $40 and more, will need to show why their knives are yes better and worth the extra money.
This is the market force
Do not preach to the quire.
We as experts here on this site know the differences.
We do not represent the mass market.
Can an average Joe on the street tell the difference between a $10 Rough Rider and a $50 knife?
I can.
But for a price quality ratio of 5:1, could I convince an average buyer to spend 5X the price
Except we would be talking about taking the clothing trade out of NYC in to the non-unionised South (work unions nothing else!!!)
The wages in the South were much cheaper and it killed the unionised sweat shops in NYC.
Next step, the jobs went further south, to Mexico, then to the Far East.
And it follows the cheap labor market, to perhaps China as the final frontier, as the labor pool is so vast.
When you buy Fruit of the Loom tee shirts, who looks for the AFL-CIO mark?
Is the tee shirt less quality because of less expensive labor and less expensive material?
So why the big questions now when it comes to knives?
We have major quality manufacturing companies (Buck) using factories in China.
The slippy designs are hardly pirateable!
These are standard copiable patterns.
We see that some $10 knives are quite good such as our Rough Rider thread.
So please explain why Joe in the street should not buy these knives?
Any other knife manufacturer selling knives at $40 and more, will need to show why their knives are yes better and worth the extra money.
This is the market force
Do not preach to the quire.
We as experts here on this site know the differences.
We do not represent the mass market.
Can an average Joe on the street tell the difference between a $10 Rough Rider and a $50 knife?
I can.
But for a price quality ratio of 5:1, could I convince an average buyer to spend 5X the price