Was this self-defense?

Status
Not open for further replies.
David Mary said:
B benchwarmer380 you say it's common sense, but it could be pretty easy to make a mistake, especially if we are going around thinking that we're justified to use lethal force at the first hint of trouble, especially on the street. Situations can be misinterpreted was my whole point.
Click to expand...

I don't think (most) people go around thinking like that nor do I see it being encouraged.

Of course situations can be misinterpreted. But if you misinterpret someone sneezing for violence against you and you shoot them you will be arrested. Justifiably so.


However, in this instance he did not use force at "the first hint of trouble". There were multiple factors and actions at play prior to his actions.
 
benchwarmer380 said:
However, in this instance he did not use force at "the first hint of trouble". There were multiple factors and actions at play prior to his actions.
Click to expand...

Yes I know. I'm just saying that care is to be taken so as not to set a dangerous precedent.
 
Seems to me that in robberies involving firearms, the robber pulls the firearm from the get-go. He waives the gun in the clerk's face and says, "give me all your cash." I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a robber has a gun if it's not on display.
 
To my knowledge you have the right to use force to protect your property, deadly force if force is being used against you and your in danger of serous harm. The clerks actions appear to be outside of those perimeters. This is one for the lawyers to debate but based on all the information I see from the video I side with the clerk. A previous poster made the analogy of being stopped at a light and having someone jump in the front seat, your in danger and whether they're armed or not your reacting...most likely violently.
 
Carboniferous said:
People saying that actions during stressful moments like this can't be judged are making completely untenable arguments.

I'm sorry but expecting people to turn into unthinking, instinct-driven killing machines at the slightest provocation is a pathetic standard. Cowardly. This was not some crazy high stress situation. I'm tired of people in this thread pretending it is. Being in a stressful situation doesn't absolve you of responsibility, especially not two socially awkward dweebs who never threatened the clerk.

Yes, we get to judge folks who use lethal force. That's...literally how criminal justice works. You know, that whole trial by jury thing? Yes, I'm going to judge his actions without being in his position. Stop pretending like you aren't doing the same all the time every day, including right now. Be principled and consistent.

If you can't handle it I don't think you deserve to make the choice, you're unfit for society. A liability. If you can't handle yourself here how can I expect you to follow the law generally? To respect the rights of people generally? People in this thread are explicitly advocating for
Click to expand...
Socially awkaward dweebs? What on earth are you saying? How bout entitled scumbags?

I hope you are speaking from a personal experience of being robbed or other extreme situation where your personal safety felt threatened? If not it may be you who is unfit. I have seen no one suggesting vigilante justice but rather self protection.

“Men are not hanged for stealing horses, but that horses may not be stolen”


David Mary said:
Yes I know. I'm just saying that care is to be taken so as not to set a dangerous precedent.
Click to expand...
Very true. No argument.
 
Blade Lab said:
Seems to me that in robberies involving firearms, the robber pulls the firearm from the get-go. He waives the gun in the clerk's face and says, "give me all your cash." I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a robber has a gun if it's not on display.
Click to expand...


Maybe that's a reasonable assumption, maybe not.


Armed robbery usually has a more severe penalty than other types of robbery like (here in FL) robbery by sudden snatching and strong arm.

It is quite conceivable that a criminal might try to mitigate their actions to lesser offenses if possible. Kinda like that guy that went into the liquor store with an AR and ran back out with his arm blown off. He took his chances with an armed robbery and lost. He could have walked in and shot the clerk immediately and he would have been much more likely to walk away with his arm intact and the goods and money.

I can easily see someone that thinks they can just grab stuff and run without confrontation do so but also have a weapon in case things go sideways
 
Blade Lab said:
Seems to me that in robberies involving firearms, the robber pulls the firearm from the get-go. He waives the gun in the clerk's face and says, "give me all your cash." I don't think it's reasonable to assume that a robber has a gun if it's not on display.
Click to expand...
Absolutely wrong !

Happens all the time, that robbers will imply having a gun/ other weapon, to intimidate the victim(s) into permitting / not resisting , the theft .

The crook is trying to avoid charges of armed robbery , which are more serious . They may or may not be armed , but they don't want to show one .

Most people (I hope) will not just stand passively idle( or cry in the corner) while thugs openly take their belongings , money , pets , wife and daughters away ...unless they perceive an imminent threat of serious harm .

The notion that folks should allow criminals to help themselves is still limited to only certain areas , at least in the USA . 😒
 
DocJD said:
Absolutely wrong !

Happens all the time, that robbers will imply having a gun/ other weapon, to intimidate the victim(s) into permitting / not resisting , the theft .

The crook is trying to avoid charges of armed robbery , which are more serious . They may or may not be armed , but they don't want to show one .

Most people (I hope) will not just stand passively idle( or cry in the corner) while thugs openly take their belongings , money , pets , wife and daughters away ...unless they perceive an imminent threat of serious harm .

The notion that folks should allow criminals to help themselves is still limited to only certain areas , at least in the USA . 😒
Click to expand...
I mean ... do you have any factual basis for this assertion? Because I think you give criminals way too much credit. I don't think they're consulting with the legal department before knocking over a vape shop that probably does a couple bills worth of business on a good day.

I wasn't suggesting that the clerk just roll over. There's a fair amount of space between rolling over and stabbing someone 7 times with a hunting knife.
 
Blade Lab said:
I mean ... do you have any factual basis for this assertion? Because I think you give criminals way too much credit. I don't think they're consulting with the legal department before knocking over a vape shop that probably does a couple bills worth of business on a good day.

I wasn't suggesting that the clerk just roll over. There's a fair amount of space between rolling over and stabbing someone 7 times with a hunting knife.
Click to expand...
Unless you have a ton of training , strength and mad martial arts skills , it's much MUCH harder than you seem to believe , to "less lethally " subdue 3 healthy young men (bent on crime and maybe high on something or just plain nuts ) .

Owner was in "win or die" mode . The normal rational mind cannot operate fast enough to deal with this kind of situation .

He wasn't sitting safe at home , watching a video , far far away , critiquing the action with prior knowledge of how it would end . :rolleyes:
 
SimplyMinded said:
Good- although I suspect some here will have an issue with that.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but I think most will be fine with it. The "lesson" was taught, if I understand the audience you're aiming the statement at well enough.

Hopefully, the kid gets his 2nd chance at leading a smarter life after serving his time, and gets things turned around.
 
SimplyMinded said:
Good- although I suspect some here will have an issue with that.
Click to expand...
Maybe this kid will be able to get turned around by this rather harsh life lesson .

Hopefully so ! :):thumbsup:

At 17 it's hard to radically change , but a near death experience may do the trick .

The other guys involved may well be older , even legal adults , and dominated this kid into being cannon fodder .

It's very common for criminals to use kids out front . Great role models . :rolleyes:

Maybe it was some sort of initiation thing ?

 
Last edited:
I think taking life is a sad thing in most cases, and I was honestly disappointed when I read the young man died. Could the clerk have shown a little more restraint? Sure. But we aren't him and we were not there.

However, his shop was beset upon by goons. One of those goons received a consequence of his actions in the form of an over zealous man protecting his property.

I doubt it, but I hope this situation straightens up the other two goons that survived.

I have experienced theft and invasion three times since I moved to South Florida, less than two years ago. Twice my wife's SUV was tossed, and one time they stole her bicycle [that she adored] when I failed to carry it upstairs. I would not want to kill a man for these things. Maybe beat him up a little, haha.

If this were a home invasion my opinion would be different.

It all starts in the home. It's a heart problem.
 
Billy The Hungry said:
I think taking life is a sad thing in most cases, and I was honestly disappointed when I read the young man died. Could the clerk have shown a little more restraint? Sure. But we aren't him and we were not there.

However, his shop was beset upon by goons. One of those goons received a consequence of his actions in the form of an over zealous man protecting his property.

I doubt it, but I hope this situation straightens up the other two goons that survived.

I have experienced theft and invasion three times since I moved to South Florida, less than two years ago. Twice my wife's SUV was tossed, and one time they stole her bicycle [that she adored] when I failed to carry it upstairs. I would not want to kill a man for these things. Maybe beat him up a little, haha.

If this were a home invasion my opinion would be different.

It all starts in the home. It's a heart problem.
Click to expand...

Where did you find the stabbed robber died? The story from today I found, and linked above, stated he is expected to survive.

Were you in the car or at the scene when your thefts and invasions happened?
 
bikerector said:
Where did you find the stabbed robber died? The story from today I found, and linked above, stated he is expected to survive.

Were you in the car or at the scene when your thefts and invasions happened?
Click to expand...
Oh, I thought he died? I stand corrected. I had read that somewhere. I'm glad he survived. Hopefully he turns his life around!

And no, I was not in the car. I think they stole her bike at night. I live upstairs, so I don't quite hear everything that is going on below.

I am not against using force to protect yourself, or your belongings, don't get me wrong. I conceal carry. I am responsible for my safety and the safety of my family. I was just giving a very muddled and hazy opinion, which is worth the very price you paid for it. I guess for me, this one has layers to it. I wasn't there so I definitely am not one to judge.
 
Billy The Hungry said:
Oh, I thought he died? I stand corrected. I had read that somewhere. I'm glad he survived. Hopefully he turns his life around!

And no, I was not in the car. I think they stole her bike at night. I live upstairs, so I don't quite hear everything that is going on below.

I am not against using force to protect yourself, or your belongings, don't get me wrong. I conceal carry. I am responsible for my safety and the safety of my family. I was just giving a very muddled and hazy opinion, which is worth the very price you paid for it. I guess for me, this one has layers to it. I wasn't there so I definitely am not one to judge.
Click to expand...

The difference between your situation and the clerk's is he was present in his and you weren't in yours.

One security specialist guy a family member pointed me to (I'll have to dig his name up, has a book or two) states something along the lines that if they come while you're gone, they want your stuff; if they come while you're home they want you too. In the case of a business, many people steal and try not to get caught either by being sneaky or by grab and dash. Openly confronting the clerk as they did falls into the camp of "they want you too" if you follow the logic of the security specialist.

Edit: found it faster than I thought, the guy's name is Clint Emerson. Also, Clint's number one thing is to make yourself not a target. Same thing that's stated here. Do your best to avoid the conditions that put you at risk in the 1st place. Obviously, that doesn't always keep you safe, but it's very effective.
 
Last edited:
When the robber jumped over the counter it was on no matter the thief's intentions.

People are just fed up with crime. A lack of prosecution or a slap on the wrist when criminals are caught.

Whether you agree with it or not in today's climate I don't think any kind of charges would end in a conviction of the store clerk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top