Was this self-defense?

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Carboniferous said:
It's a fair consideration, I'm just jumping ahead to whether I think that reasonably warrants the kind of adrenaline dump and tunnel vision that some argue justifies his actions beyond the initial stab.

I still don't see how even the initiation of lethal force was warranted, or how a reasonable person would be in such terror or distress that I wouldn't expect them to make an evaluation.

I think at this point we're at the crux and it's down to a judgment call, agree to disagree I suppose.
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I don't mean to start any argument with you, but have you ever really been in an unexpected life threatening situation where immediate action was called for?
I have, The mind snaps into an automatic course of action driven by survival instinct. Adrenaline flow is not controllable it's involuntary.
And only after it's over, and what happened and what you did slowly start becoming clear to you, do you start shaking all over as your supressed fear and terror come out.
Frankly, I'm glad the victim stopped when he did to call the cops.
 
Carboniferous said:
It's a fair consideration, I'm just jumping ahead to whether I think that reasonably warrants the kind of adrenaline dump and tunnel vision that some argue justifies his actions beyond the initial stab.

I still don't see how even the initiation of lethal force was warranted, or how a reasonable person would be in such terror or distress that I wouldn't expect them to make an evaluation.

I think at this point we're at the crux and it's down to a judgment call, agree to disagree I suppose.
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Have you ever worked as a clerk, in a store, by yourself? One of my first jobs out of high school was as a clerk in a convenience store. It was scary. I had a guy pull a butcher knife on me one time. All I had for defense was a piece of straight pipe about an inch thick and about 12-14 inches long that we kept behind the counter. As soon as the guy pulled the knife, I jumped back away from the counter, grabbing the pipe as I did. We stood there and looked at each other for a few seconds - then he made a face at me, feinted a move in my direction, turned around and walked out. I gave my notice the next day.

Even with my experience, which turned out with no physical harm done to anyone, I can't imagine what it would have been like if the guy with the butcher knife had come across the counter. I understand that the person in the Las Vegas video was not displaying a weapon - many times, weapons are concealed from view.

When you go into someone else's home, business or work place with the intention of robbing or burglarizing someone, you are taking your life into your own hands. NO, of course not, burglary or theft of property should not result in a death sentence - but robbery and burglary often result in the victims being severely injured or killed. It's a serious life-and-death situation and no one can predict the outcome when faced with these situations unexpectedly, on the spur of the moment.
 
In my opinion the law is pretty clear in this case. There's no legal defense for the clerk's actions. However, reality is that prosecutors are in the business of putting away criminals, and they tend to be sympathetic when it comes to overzealous crime victims. And of course juries don't always follow the law, for the same reason.

Side note: why do people keep saying the clerk was outnumbered three to one, when there were only two perps, and one of them high-tailed it as soon as the knife came out?
 
KenHash said:
It;s very easy to dissect a situation like this in hindsight and measure degree of justified lethal force in millimeters.
But in real ife I suspect the store clerk was terrified and acting out of survival response.
With the two perps entering the store masked, refusing to leave, one jumping over the counter and the store clerk not knowing if they had a firearm and
to what exent they were prepared to escalate this criminal act. I believe this can be seen as "self defense".
The criminals brought this on themselves.
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Exactly, any judge or juror is illegitimate if they do not have a full understanding that..you have 0.5 seconds or less to choose life or death. How will you choose with fractions of a second to decide and everything to lose? Expecting anyone to make perfect, impeccable decisions in that time frame is just not possible or reasonable. People make mistakes on a daily basis with comparatively no stress and days, weeks or months of time to think it out. And again, he never would have had to make that decision if he wasn't forced into the situation by thugs.

This is like getting victimized twice, all for something you never asked to be a part of. It is disgusting.

And for what? So we can pay for him to sit in prison with our tax dollars? So they can let a real criminal loose to open up a cell for him? Things are beyond crazy at this point.
 
Blade Lab said:
In my opinion the law is pretty clear in this case. There's no legal defense for the clerk's actions. However, reality is that prosecutors are in the business of putting away criminals, and they tend to be sympathetic when it comes to overzealous crime victims. And of course juries don't always follow the law, for the same reason.

Side note: why do people keep saying the clerk was outnumbered three to one, when there were only two perps, and one of them high-tailed it as soon as the knife came out?
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- There were three thugs, one was out of camera view.

- If he high tailed after the knife was put into action then he was a threat until that very moment at a minimum. There was nothing but a smart decision keeping him from jumping in.

- The guy that got stabbed was concealing (more like purposely printing) an object that he was implying was a gun. That in itself is the same as a gun being openly brandished and in free states considered assault with a deadly weapon whether it is a gun or not. It doesn't matter if it was a pipe, stick, nerf gun or water pistol..if you are using it to instill the fear of an actual gun..then it is a gun effectively. Here is an idea..why don't you try taking a piece of cut off broom stick, hide it under a jacket, put on a ski mask then go confront a cop and point it at him while trying to rob him..make sure to report the results here.

Don't actually do that..you, I and everyone else here knows that the results will be effectively the same as what happened to this thug who decided to pull innocent people into his selfish game.
 
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This was a better video than I saw earlier.

There obviously was not a significant threat. They were casually talking and it was obvious they were both stupid. If you seriously fear for you life in that situation, you're a frail, scared little person with very little life experience.

Horrible placement on all of those stabbings. It made me think of idiot hunters leaving an animal to suffer after a poor shot. But that is expected, right? The guy probably isn't trained in knife fighting so I wont fault him for how he ended up defending himself like that.

All that being said, I don't give a eff about that stupid kid getting effed up. I hope the owner doesn't catch a case.
 
MolokaiRider said:
I wonder if Castle Doctrine applies in the case of a business?
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Allegedly, not in commercial areas. But, I believe you can make the case that once he jumped the counter, it did. The public was not allowed in that area and the clerk was.

It depends how you read the code and how it would be argued.

I also believe stand your ground applies because he was in fear for his life.

He did show restraint after the guy said he was ‘dying’.
 
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KenHash said:
I don't mean to start any argument with you, but have you ever really been in an unexpected life threatening situation where immediate action was called for?
I have, The mind snaps into an automatic course of action driven by survival instinct. Adrenaline flow is not controllable it's involuntary.
And only after it's over, and what happened and what you did slowly start becoming clear to you, do you start shaking all over as your supressed fear and terror come out.
Frankly, I'm glad the victim stopped when he did to call the cops.
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Yes. I maintained my composure.
 
AlongTheRazorsEdge said:
Exactly, any judge or juror is illegitimate if they do not have a full understanding that..you have 0.5 seconds or less to choose life or death. How will you choose with fractions of a second to decide and everything to lose? Expecting anyone to make perfect, impeccable decisions in that time frame is just not possible or reasonable. People make mistakes on a daily basis with comparatively no stress and days, weeks or months of time to think it out. And again, he never would have had to make that decision if he wasn't forced into the situation by thugs.
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This seems like an education deficiency thing. Not that learning self defense and the laws around it can make a person invincible, but with good preparation, people can gain the tools to visualize real solutions to real deadly force encounters, and learn habits and practices that make them much less likely to occur in our lives. This alone is already superior to just having no idea and taking a blind stab with "maybe I'll use a knife with no training".

That could include kids getting good security training at a young age, including the legal pitfalls and how best to prepare. Marc MacYoung for realistic expectations of use of force incidents and their effects and aftermath, as well as how to navigate it safely as with a map. Or Massad Ayoub. Surely others. There is good information and people can empower themselves or feel entitled to no consequences for messing up.

Or active self protection youtube channel. I haven't checked in in a while, but he has a series where he reviewed camera footage from all over the world of deadly force encounters with criminals, and he breaks down the specific elements of each incident in a few minutes to explain what could have been done better, so those who have not been in such situations can start to understand principles and how to apply them towards solutions to violent or potentially violent encounters.

Fight. Flight. Freeze. Massad Ayoub says the freeze is because "you don't know what to do". And fight or flight is a snap decision that could really benefit from a little up front due diligence on behalf of those who would rather not be victims to violence or jailed for defeating it.
 
AlongTheRazorsEdge said:
And before when he calmly told them to take the money and leave. But that obviously wasn't sweet enough of a pot for these criminals.
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"If he's afraid enough to say that, he'll just let us take everything"... maybe? Because they sure seemed bolder all of a sudden, the bigger one did a 180 and came right back in, and then the little guy thought he had an opening to get in and get out, presumably. Looked to me like a domino effect based on his overt compliance. Overt compliance is suggested as a decoy, but only to launch a counter ambush using force appropriate to the circumstances, which brings us back to: No I don't think it was, but I recognize mitigating factors that I did not before. Doesn't mean I think the force in itself was justified, but that POSSIBLY Nguyen had a valid fear for his life, and thought he was in a justified use of lethal force scenario. Because of fear, previous interactions, training or lack thereof? We don't know. So we can't judge, and don't get paid to anyway. Too bad the system suffers corruption. It's what we have...

I need a glass of water

But here's an excitingly bland video that actually made me chuckle despite the gravity of the situation (and also I was saying it wrong)

 
Blade Lab said:
In my opinion the law is pretty clear in this case. There's no legal defense for the clerk's actions. However, reality is that prosecutors are in the business of putting away criminals, and they tend to be sympathetic when it comes to overzealous crime victims. And of course juries don't always follow the law, for the same reason.

Side note: why do people keep saying the clerk was outnumbered three to one, when there were only two perps, and one of them high-tailed it as soon as the knife came out?
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One stayed at the door , either to keep from being locked in or to keep a lookout , or both .

The owner had to be concerned that either of the other two perps could jump in, at any time .

Notice that most of his attention is focused towards the front area / door , rather than on the one he had hold on .

He kept the injured perp in front of him , maybe by instinct , but very smart move if the others had attacked with weapons . :cool:
 
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