Was this self-defense?

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SimplyMinded said:
He's small but the counter jumper is smaller. If he got punched doesn't that pretty much prove counter jumper didn't have a gun? In fact, doesn't dropping the coat to jump the counter prove that? How many people would draw a knife on a featherweight-sized guy who punched you, raise your hands.
Look, the crook kids were in the wrong but "rises to the level of lethal force" wrong? No way.
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It is somewhat simple-minded for any of us to second guess people’s actions in situations such as these. It is scary and happens very fast. Instinct does take over.

I will not shoot you for simply stealing my lawnmower but coming into my place of business and threatening me or my method of feeding my family and you may not walk away. Who knows what those guys could have done to the clerk.

I have sympathy for people’s kids who become addicted to drugs. I also have sympathy for business owners trying to feed their family and working hard to do it.

Perhaps parents should teach their kids, If you steal you might lose a finger or your life 🤷‍♂️
 
Carboniferous said:
So is your concern in a situation like this actually your safety? Or is it just the principle? "What, am I supposed to let someone get one over on me? I AIN'T NO VICTIM." That's the vibe I get from this thread generally.
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This little shop is probably the owner's life , his hope for a legitimate /productive future ...the old school "American Dream" .

That dream cannot survive looting or anything that disrupts his business repeatedly .

What dreams are the young punks pursuing ?

Gang leaders / crime boss / kings of stolen merchandise ?
 
DocJD said:
This little shop is probably the owner's life , his hope for a legitimate /productive future ...the old school "American Dream" .

That dream cannot survive looting or anything that disrupts his business repeatedly .

What dreams are the young punks pursuing ?

Gang leaders / crime boss / kings of stolen merchandise ?
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So, again, is it safety you actually care about here? Do you actually care if it was or wasn't lawful self-defense? Or are you just judging the value of lives?
 
I think it boils down to: Were the 3 guys a deadly threat to the clerk? The one jumped into his personal space to hit him, and I’m sure he felt threatened by the fact that they are dressed like robbers and are very possibly armed. Even unarmed, 3 on 1 can present a deadly threat.
 
jux t said:
I think it boils down to: Were the 3 guys a deadly threat to the clerk? The one jumped into his personal space to hit him, and I’m sure he felt threatened by the fact that they are dressed like robbers and are very possibly armed. Even unarmed, 3 on 1 can present a deadly threat.
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He jumped the counter to grab stuff off the shelf. He didn't move towards or even look at the clerk as he did. He has his hands on goods from the shelf as he gets stabbed.
 
SimplyMinded said:
I didn't see anyone imply they had a gun.
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What do believe that thing sticking out front was supposed to be ?

Maybe a dildo or ...? That's even more disturbing ! :eek:

Assassins sometimes will wrap a gun for concealment and to muffle the sound .

Unless it's Halloween or a ski lodge , ski masks imply a robbery or murderous intent .

All the trash bags ...maybe to conceal clothing ID or shield from blood spatter .

Too much vaping and video games ? Too much hormones with no brains to guide them .

Waste of life . Very sad .
 
Carboniferous said:
Pretty anti-American sentiment re: "Why do criminals even have any rights?" Not sure "restraint" is a word I would use in this situation. He took the the absolute first opportunity, without hesitation, to employ lethal force. You can call it justified but how do you see restraint? He could not have stabbed the guy any faster. The argument doesn't really make sense either. Did he show restraint or was he acting on hard-wired instinctual responses? Did he stay calm thanks to playing...video games, or was it a traumatically stressful situation?

This was not a situation that reasonably called for such pure terror that all rational thought should have been made impossible. You have a lawful and moral duty to act reasonably, even when faced with dangers like this. This sentiment that, "Well he was wronged so how can you hold him accountable for his actions?" is just beyond the pale. The proper response to bad behavior doesn't involve throwing standards of "good" and "bad" and "reasonable" and "ethical" out the window.

Trusting a jury of your peers was mentioned. These sentiments make it hard for me to trust a jury of my peers. My peers are telling me, "Screw rule of law, screw rights, screw ethics, just appeal to whatever 'natural law' and 'human instinct' mean and go with your gut." Please have some restraint.
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Why do criminals who are tried and convicted (sometimes multiple times) have any rights? I'm not talking about prior to being proven guilty, just based on a hunch or unproven accusation. But why do proven murderers, rapists and child molesters have any rights in this or any other country? These thugs were caught on video commiting criminal acts, there is no question whether they are guilty. Letting criminals victimize innocent people, slapping them on the wrist and setting them free to victimize more people is the farthest thing from American, it's called sabotage and/or treason. Don't think for a second that those behind this thinking and who promote it aren't aware of the strategy of destabilizing a country to take it over, or divide and conquer.

He showed restraint by waiting until he was cornered to defend himself. He did everything to de escalate the situation until cornered.

You talk in another post about American norms; letting thugs run wild victimizing people and then crying foul and hiding behind the "law" when things go bad is not and never was an American "norm", certainly not for generations and certainly not anywhere except the usual suspect states. These are infiltrator implanted ideas of enabling criminals, not American but anti American. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to identify where these ideas are coming from. Hint: the same areas and people who abuse all the systems, the same areas and people who want to decriminalize theft, the same areas where crime is rampant, the same areas where riots are tolerated or even encouraged, the same areas and people who support (or actively are) the erasing of our history.
 
Carboniferous said:
So, again, is it safety you actually care about here? Do you actually care if it was or wasn't lawful self-defense? Or are you just judging the value of lives?
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I care very deeply about safety and security .

Mine and even yours . ;)

Bad guys, or punk wanna be gangstas , DO NOT CARE . Their aim was to trespass , terrorize , and loot as a gang .

If you don't know better than that by 17yo , you don't have much chance to change your core values . Most just get worse as they learn how to be better crooks .

When societal law and order breaks down , the individual citizens are left to protect their own interests as best they can .

I value lives that are valuable and those that act towards me and mine with respect . This is called survival .
 
SimplyMinded said:
I didn't see anyone imply they had a gun.
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You must not have watched the video then. Take any object that is even remotely similar in shape to something that could be a gun and hide it under a jacket, then point it at a cop and report the results.

SimplyMinded said:
Some other guys who thought that way are enjoying new prison accommodations now.
In my opinion this was overkill. If they had a gun they would have shown it. They're kids, that's obvious and they just wanted the money, not to attack the guy. Seven stabs? Come on. Those twerps were about as threatening as a girl scout troop. Not that the store owner was much bigger though, so there is that.
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This video makes it obvious and only cements the fact that multiple stab wounds may not and likely will not be sufficient to immediately stop the threat. I hope this puts an end to the "he stabbed too many times" lies. Overkill? Dead is dead, the result is the same. This madness needs to stop. Armchair warriors who want to play God with an innocent victims fate and victimize him again, those who weren't there and weren't in the victim's position, didn't have to make life or death decisions with no pause or rewind buttons in a fraction of a second etc.
 
SimplyMinded said:
Why do i get the idea these folks would attempt to "clear the house" rather than stay in the bedroom with a gun pointed at the door and the cops on the way? ;) Remember that guy who set the trap for those two teens and blew them away on the basement stairs? A whole lotta that in this thread. A lotta gung ho, not so much "oh shit my life is ruined", but some folks have to learn the hard way.
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You have no duty to retreat in states with castle doctrine (free American states), and that includes your vehicle and place of business.

Please don't forget that the Supreme Court has determined that police have no duty to protect you, they don't even have to respond. Suprisingly, they only have the duty to protect those in their custody; aka arrestees and prisoners..so again who does the law protect?

 
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SimplyMinded said:
He's small but the counter jumper is smaller. If he got punched doesn't that pretty much prove counter jumper didn't have a gun? In fact, doesn't dropping the coat to jump the counter prove that? How many people would draw a knife on a featherweight-sized guy who punched you, raise your hands.
Look, the crook kids were in the wrong but "rises to the level of lethal force" wrong? No way.
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You must not be aware of the hundreds of single punch murders that occur around the world, including the high profile one that occured in that very city.




The evidence is overwhelming that any physical threat is and should be treated as a deadly threat.
 
Lethal force was used, and the public has a right to see it scrutinized. I believe in the law as written, but leave the legal guilt or innocence of the store owner to a Jury of his peers, and his moral guilt or innocence to a Higher Court.
 
David Mary said:
Lethal force was used, and the public has a right to see it scrutinized. I believe in the law as written, but leave the legal guilt or innocence of the store owner to a Jury of his peers, and his moral guilt or innocence to a Higher Court.
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They'll make damn sure this store owner has zero "peers" on the jury, if they want a conviction .

That's how the system really works !
 
I recognize that the system, imperfect from the start, has eroded even further away from its purpose by the hands of corrupt men and women. It doesn't mean we the people should abandon the principle that it is founded upon, namely justice.
 
It’s Nevada, there isn’t going to be an arrest or trial. Man should get an award from other shop owners 🤔
 
...for using lethal force against a potential threat, not an actual and imminent one. And that's not as slippery a slope as not fighting back at all? How is moderation of force not reasonable when it can be practiced?
 
Not sure I'm picking up what you've putting down. Seemed like he moderated his force after the guy said he was dying. 🤷‍♂️
 
He used lethal force without having any force directed against him first.
 
One guy stole his money, the next guy tried to come across the counter and it did look like he may have taken a swing. Regardless, it is trespassing into a private area and looked very threatening. The guy would have been surrounded. Nevada ‘stand your ground’/ Castle doctrine would seem to imply, to me, that the guy who got stabbed deserved it and the clerk is a hero.
 
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