We’re being RAPED by science, opinions and rumors!

Tai,
I respect your incorrigible curiosity and near-lunatic pursuit of the radical edge in bladesmithing, but posting a link (however interesting) isn't a contribution to a discussion.

From what I've seen, anyone who claims to have an absolute understanding of "blade science" must not be working with steel first-hand. Certainly I haven't seen any personalities like that on these forums. (Well, not in excess... ^_^)
We all get baffled, we all come up with crazy ideas that don't work the way we expect, and at the end of the day we all keep making blades because it's what we love.

So, who is your post aimed at? Who's "raping" us? "The Man?" Did I miss another flamewar that got locked?
 
I think the last paragraph sums up there point. It is easy to think we have enough of the answers to have a good grip on things, but we dont. There will always be new layers and new discoveries that change what was once excepted. Still, we rely on scientific theories everyday to keep us alive. The science in cars, planes and bridges. I think in bladesmithing we are dealing with science that is more than close enough to help us achieve our ends. Some theories will be found out to be incorrect but we do have a large base or knowledge at this point.
 
Tai, lets look at the bigger picture. Science changes constantly. I graduated with an MS is 1996 and today science class is already different(e.g. cell structure, atomic structure). Darwinists tell us how we arrived at this point based on Darwin's knowledge base (1859 science). Why should we listen to 150 yr old science when today's science will be obsolete in 5 years? When one puts all their faith in a truth that changes they are in trouble, science isn't everything.
Tad Lynch
 
tdl said:
Darwinists tell us how we arrived at this point based on Darwin's knowledge base (1859 science).
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Whoa... do you really believe that 1859 was the last point of input in the discussion?


Just because I like to hear it, I'll post one of my favorite quotes (again):

"Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

-Arthur C. Clarke

-or, maybe more applicable here:

"It's amazing how all your problems resemble nails when all you've got is a hammer."


Maybe if enough people wish to have an anti-scientific branch of knifemaking, we could ask Spark to add a separate sub-forum.


EDIT- I just re-read this post -- this post was NOT meant as an attack on you, tdl... the way it reads could easily be taken wrong, and is not my intent. Hope you can divine that from my words! Sometimes I have trouble getting the right expression through electronic delivery!
 
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Science is the darwinian process of finding answers. The continual evolution of knowlege culls the inacurate and obsolete, but would not exist without the foundation that originally supported the culls.

Mysticism is the insistance that something is truth without method, process, or informed skepticism.

Creative craftsmanship is taking the best information available, and making something beautiful enough to make one want to believe the mystic, and well enough made that in 1000 years it will evoke a mythology of its own

-Page
 
Matt, an anti-scientific branch of knifemaking would not interest me, but I do like to hear Tai's opinions in conjunction with the others here on this page. I was just on my soapbox briefly today. Nobody can deny natural selection other points by Darwin, but I wonder if he would make some of the leaps that today's folks make if he knew the complexity of things. Anyway what does this have to do with knifemaking? Back tommorrow. Tad Lynch
 
We might consider giving up the imaginary ideal of perfect truth as a goal, and replacing it with the idea of continually improving understanding.
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As I understand it, this article / essay is not at all critical of science, nor the pursuit of scientific knowledge. This peice is brilliantly directed at improving our understanding of exactly what knowledge, knowing, and fundamentally, truth is.

One of my favorite exchanges serves well here:

Kaylee: "So, how come you don't carw where you're goin'?"

Book: " Because the journey's the worthier part".

While most often, not having any idea what you want a knife to be when you start making it may turn out disaster, and not understanding the effects you want during heat treat before you begin will quite likely turn out only disaster, nonetheless, the process oriented understanding has a great deal to inform the goal oriented understanding, and as the article points out, most folks tend to be almost exclusively goal oriented, and thus fail to bring the process oriented perspective to the table when they form their understanding of the world around them.
 
Scientific knowledge keeps changing...and our ideas about truth change too.
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Ya, so... that's the point isn't it?

To say that we are being
RAPED by science
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seems kinda inflammatory and silly.

It's funny to me how "science" and "religion" can be bad words sure to get some peoples hackles up.

Seems to me you wouldn't have steel without primitive men of science who made some astute observations and refined their processes continuously.
If that's not science, I don't know what is.

The rest is circular, vague, and full of rhetoric. It's the kind of thing that i hear from my dope-smoking, hippie, Amway-selling ex-friends....
sorry was that negative???
I'M going to call it the "truth"....:D
 
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Matthew Gregory said:
Whoa... do you really believe that 1859 was the last point of input in the discussion?


Just because I like to hear it, I'll post one of my favorite quotes (again):

"Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

-Arthur C. Clarke

-or, maybe more applicable here:

"It's amazing how all your problems resemble nails when all you've got is a hammer."


Maybe if enough people wish to have an anti-scientific branch of knifemaking, we could ask Spark to add a separate sub-forum.


EDIT- I just re-read this post -- this post was NOT meant as an attack on you, tdl... the way it reads could easily be taken wrong, and is not my intent. Hope you can divine that from my words! Sometimes I have trouble getting the right expression through electronic delivery!
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Any technology that is not sufficiently understood by science is deemed "unscientific" or non-scientific.

Once you think you know the truth,... you don't understand it the way you ought to.

The truth is a receding horizon...

If you don't have ALL the facts yet,... how can you reach the correct conclusions?... guess work, luck?

Science itself is anti-scientific. :D
 
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I say right on! The elusive nature of the facts should tell that we were never meant to know them, so why do we want to play god and keep meddling in things we don’t need to know?

After all, what the heck has science ever really done for us? Oh sure there is – telecommunications, computers, the polio vaccine, penicillin and air travel. But other than those what has science ever done for us?

Sure you could say the obvious like space flight, plastics, sanitation, engineering, refrigeration, pasteurization, heart surgery, brain surgery, treatment for malaria, the elimination of small pox, astronomy, atomic theory, accurate weather prediction, digitized information, pace makers, dialysis, composites, computer monitors, chemistry, genetics, physics and geology.

Oh I’ll give you that! But other than that what has science done for us? I mean what do we need with electricity, induction heating, powder metallurgy, pain relieving drugs, water purification, cameras, artificial lighting, vulcanization, carbon fiber, fiber optics, synthetic fibers, skin grafting, microsurgery, viagra, radio, organ transplants, MRI’s, electro arc furnaces or alloying?? I don’t see how that technical drivel has changed things much! Nothing but trouble that science is! Who needs it?

And who needs the scientific method to find facts? Always changing and moving around! Why we did just fine before all this science hooey! We had better ways to find answers! Remember the good old “She’s a witch! Burn her!” Forensics pahhh! When that tart was tossed into that lake with a bag of rocks we had our answers with no CSI or DNA nonsense!

Telescopes, microscopes, X-rays and cat scans, what a load of hog wash! The Romans had animal guts and an old crone to dig through them in a trance and look how well they did! And after she found the evil spirit in your blood, you didn’t need any pharmaceutical lab to fix yah when you could just open a vein and let it out!

And while we are at it, you know why we cannot make anything out of steel as good as they did before all this scientific horse heap don’t you? Phlogiston! We have totally forgotten how to properly manipulate the phlogiston in the steel! Heck I see smiths regularly allowing black cats to wander their property while forging! No wonder we need idiot crutches like Parks #50 and temperature controls when we allow the shades to run amok so!
 
P.S. I really don't give a flip one way or another about this thread, but the set up for a classic Python routine was too good to let go;)
 
LOL :D

We need more science and technology to fix all the things science and technology messed up... global warming, global dimming, nuclear threats, weapons of mass destruction, nuclear watse, toxic chemicals, oils spills, over population, dwindling recourses, invasive species, extinction of species, deforestation, general dehumanization... stainless steel, etc., or we might all be doomed!

or... maybe we've finally reached the point where backwards is actually forwards. :D

Back in the 50s baby formula was actually considered better than breast milk. :)
 
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:yawn: If we would all run around naked and eat grubs for a living, none of this would matter to anyone...





:D
 
Wow!!!


As a "scientist-type" I must say that I appreciate Tai tweaking everyone from time to time :D

When you think about it, though, it really is a semantic issue - ie what does "science" mean?

Science does not = TRUTH, it is a SEARCH for the TRUTH which will never end.

A true scientist never believes he has all the answers, but must continue to keep an open mind as he/she searches for either 1) further data to back up his hypothesis or 2) data which modifies or disputes the hypothesis

the "fact" that science continually updates its database to incorporate new data is a good thing - we cannot confuse "Science" with "absolute fact"


Having said all that, denying useful observations and data because "we can never know the absolute truth" is not particularly useful either.

Quantum physics has not rendered Newtonian physics "wrong" it has merely extended our knowledge to areas that classic physics does not address.

Basically, it comes down to this : Keep an open mind, always keep looking for new data and use the "old" to build on the "new"

Bill
 
billf said:
Wow!!!

When you think about it, though, it really is a semantic issue - ie what does "science" mean?

Bill
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Now that's a really good question!

I'd go as far to say that it is just an inherent type of cognition, nothing really special,... until it comes down to things like marketing, money, greed, and things like that. It's a means of swaying public opinion... not always for the best.
 
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