We’re being RAPED by science, opinions and rumors!

the scientific approach of controlling your process variables to allow you to excercise the creative to the fullest potential is the essence of craftsmanship.
if your knife is not well made it doesn't matter how beautiful it is, science allows you to make the functional part . . .well . . . functional, and if a knife isn't functional it is just (pardon the pun) . . . pointless

-Page
 
I'll wade in here even though I'm not a maker. I fell for Tai's wiles already once this year. I am a practicing scientist. At a fundamental level - science is about generating mechanistic understanding of natural processes. Really it is about generating knowledge and the principle tenant of any true scientific discipline is the Free dissemination of information through the peer review process.

All this stuff about how scientific knowledge is used or misused - that is really engineering, buisness or politics. It is getting a little more blurry these days with some scientists holding patents, however, I don't view patent as a legitimate scientific process. Thats just a scientist mucking around in buisness.

I'm not really sure one could really claim knife making as science. One could make inquiries into avenues in metallurgy, the physics of cutting performance etc. However, the design of knives and their usability is craftsmanship with a bit of engineering thrown in for good measure. This isn't to say that scientific principles can't be used to help in the process, Sunshadow's definition really is one that reflects an engineer's mandate. But creating a knife for the purpose of selling is not performing science. Nor is science concerned with aesthetic aspects so essential to realm knives (a wonderful craft I find myself attracted to for by and large non-scientific reasons).

Now - claiming that scientists are responsible for over-populating the world Tai - let me sincerely try to clarify. While I have done my best through much of my adult life to engage in frequent and vigorous reproductive activity with as many partners I could find, I in fact don't think I actually kept up with the mean success rate of my age cohort. In fact, at some point I started to think that perhaps my profession was holding me back a bit :)
 
It's strange - I seem to engage and reject these meaningless threads with no apparent pattern. It's the same old travel-worn trail, but nonetheless I keep adding footprints to it. I wonder why I'm drawn to them...
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It's just Dan please, Matt. My father can be Mr. Zawacki, I'm still under 30! I would imagine, however, that you keep adding those footprints likely for much the same reason as the rest of us, I would assume. As I already mentioned, the intersection of science and philosophy is a really neat place, and overmuch, we as modern type humans don't really have a great deal of time in our day to day lives to experience that place.

the scientific approach of controlling your process variables to allow you to excercise the creative to the fullest potential is the essence of craftsmanship.
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Page, as usual, you have hit the beast on the nose. Simple, eloquent, and well expressed. While I know you are a full time metalsmith of both the knife and jewelry bents, are you by training a professional educator, or do you simply have a knack for it?
 
Dan Zawacki said:
It's just Dan please, Matt. My father can be Mr. Zawacki, I'm still under 30! I would imagine, however, that you keep adding those footprints likely for much the same reason as the rest of us, I would assume. As I already mentioned, the intersection of science and philosophy is a really neat place, and overmuch, we as modern type humans don't really have a great deal of time in our day to day lives to experience that place.



Page, as usual, you have hit the beast on the nose. Simple, eloquent, and well expressed. While I know you are a full time metalsmith of both the knife and jewelry bents, are you by training a professional educator, or do you simply have a knack for it?
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no, actually an artist (performing as well as visual and craft) I have worked one semester as an adjunct photo professor and liked it, and I've taught fencing, beginning violin and piano, and repousse.
I just managed to get hired as an associate (fancy term for lab grunt) in a metallurgical lab at a plant making aerospace superalloys. Iife can be interesting. Leonardo Da Vinci invented much of the processes of modern science so he could paint better. Heck of a role model for an artist.

-Page
 
I think it gets back to the question, "What do we mean by science?"

Is science the only way to seek or attain knowledge?

Is all true knowledge scientific in origin?

I suppose you could argue that it is, but that's really just a perspective or one way of looking at it. I personally don't see it that way, and would say that science really doesn’t have that much to do with making a good functional performing knife. I think that it can help to understand some of the basic metallurgy, but don't see it as the end all of end alls or an absolute necessity.

Science can be very misleading and detrimental if it is incomplete, incorrect, or misapplied. It can be a false security blanket, marketing platform, etc... When knifemakers put too much emphasis on science and metallurgy and continually fall back on it, I suspect it is because they are weak in other more important areas of the craft…

I think you need to know and understand the reasoning behind the "processes" of bladesmithing and what it is that you hope to accomplish. The goal is to make a knife to suit your concept. If you can do that successfully, I don't see what difference it makes, how you explain it... voodoo, science, sorcery, witchcraft, vibrations, process... it all boils down to the same thing. The only absolute truth is the knife itself...
 
Albert Einstein said: "Theory is when you know how everything works, but somehow, you can't get it to work properly. Ground-on is when everything works fine, but you somehow cannot explain why. Here, we managed to blend Theroy and ground-on. Nothing works, and somehow, no-one seems to be able to explain why..."
 
All that matters is that you accomplish what you set out to accomplish, and that you somehow in some way understand what you did and why, and can reproduce those results on a consistent basis... There has to be some method to the madness. I'll agree with that. :)

... call it what ever like. :)
 
This is way beyond a Boon's Cave country boy. Does this mean you can't heat steel and hit it with a hammer just for fun?
 
I get the distinct impression that Tai is laughing behind his keyboard. Personally, I think you have to have both "science" and "art" when you're engaged in craft. That's sort of my personal definition. Like Windsor chairs. Beautiful to look at. And -AT THE EXACT SAME TIME- incredibly perfectly engineered. There are many antique Windsors, some over 200 years old, that are still in good enough shape to sit in every day. And they're made of wood. That kind of quality is only possible if you have the "scientific" knowledge of distribution of forces that allows the "simple" leg joints to actually TIGHTEN when weight is applied. That's pretty cool.
 
From what I've known of Tai over the last few years . He can't just walk by a pile of dog poo. He has to stop and stir it up a little. Gotta love him.
 
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