We’re being RAPED by science, opinions and rumors!

Actually, I always thought of science as but one lens through which we can receive a unique perspective on the world around us. To me, it's not about finding the "truth" as Tai so eloquently put it, truth is a receeding hairline... er, horizon.

As with any lens, using it to the exclusion of the other valuable lenses in one's toolkit is to miss most of what is happening.

The intersection of science and philosophy is a truly wonderful place, and we could all do to spend some time there.

Insofar as "science" being responsible or behind things like marketing, money, greed, and things like that, I say hogwash!

Greed is a basic element of human nature, originally driven by the biological imperitive to secure the things that ensure a healthy, comfortable life, thus maximizing the chance of being able to successfully procreate and thus propagate the species. Science is USED by greed as just about anything else is, but it is certainly not responsible for it!

Science, at it's heart, is a belief in that which we can observe. Scientific method is a way (and a very good one, at that) by which we, as individuals, as well as collectively, can explore the world around us and thus deepen our understanding of it. Scientific facts are not absoloute, but neither do they claim to be. Rather, scientific facts are actually presented in such a way as to display that "thus far it is our best understanding that"...

It is the common, unscientific way in which most people look at and interpret science that causes this great confusion. I would suggest that anybody who would disparage science and scientific knowledge wholesale has little to no understanding of what science is, what it claims to be, and where it comes from. To any such an individual, I would say, you have a great deal of homework to do.

That being said, I really don't think Tai's posts in this thread are actually directed to disparage science, in it's purest sense, nor scientific knowledge as a whole. Rather, I see someone with a flair for the sensational challenging the rest of us to reconsider the way we commonly think of these things. To someone like that I say:

Right on man! have a beer!
 
Dan, I'm not saying that science is responsible for those negative things,... just a bit naive and irresponsible.

The problems I see with most scientists is that they don’t factor in enough variables, They always want to leave out the possible negative long term side effects and the social, political, cultural,… “human factor“. So, the good scientific discoveries get abused and misused time and time again. I think history proves that. When will they figure it out?…

However, I am not advocating ignorance,… but rather broadening the database. Look beyond into the future, the past,... and the unexpected repercussions of our actions…

Beer? How could we do it without beer? :D
 
That sounds about where I thought you were coming from.

Can't say I blame you either. Scientific pursuit can indeed have unforseen consequences. Being so obsessed with "can we" that we fail to examine "should we" is a problem unto itself!

On the other hand, I can't really blame scientific endeavor in general, nor any scientist in specific for the misuse to which it is put any more than I can blame myself if a murder is commited with a knife I made.

I will surely agree that the best science almost always gets misused or abused. Even beyond mass destruction, we have vaccination, medicine, and food growing technologies that are consistently used as pawns in geopolitical rangling. I, personally say blame those responsible for the misuse, and not those who created what amounts to just another tool.
 
Science and technology did not cause any of these problems. People cause these problems and I would be willing to say non scientific people. Politics, capitalism, religion, and more specifically ignorance, the desire for comfort, and greed are at the root of these problems. Blaming science is like saying the sun is to blame for skin cancer. Hell half of the items on your list started before the industrial revolution. Science is a methodology it is a way of thinking it is also the thing that makes us different from most other life on the planet. Science was with us before the first of our ancestors used it to build the first stone scraper. To renounce science is to renounce your home, clothes, fire, and yes your knives.:eek:

The problem is the lack of scientific methodology and facts in the minds of the consumer. It is the fear and comfort driven ignorance of the common man.:mad:

Now I am all for a more ethical responsible and environmentally friendly humanity but that cannot be achieved via meditation and hope.



Tai Goo said:
LOL :D

We need more science and technology to fix all the things science and technology messed up... global warming, global dimming, nuclear threats, weapons of mass destruction, nuclear watse, toxic chemicals, oils spills, over population, dwindling recourses, invasive species, extinction of species, deforestation, general dehumanization... stainless steel, etc., or we might all be doomed!

or... maybe we've finally reached the point where backwards is actually forwards. :D

Back in the 50s baby formula was actually considered better than breast milk. :)
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In a "perfect world", science would only be used for the good of the planet.

... but it isn't a "perfect world"... and there is no one to blame... except ourselves.

... such is the classic excuse for rape!
 
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I hear a lot of things being posed as what separates us from other animals. While this is the first time I've heard beer as the primary difference, I've heard a slew of others.

Some will tell you that it's having a soul. I disagree. Insofar as any of us have souls, then I would wager that animals (at least) do as well. Others will tell you that it's a particular kind of intelligence, like problem solving, or laguage skills. However, every time a particular type of intelligence is put on the pedestal as being "uniquely human" it is found soon thereafter in one animal or another.

I have heard that it's the use of tools. However, primates have been shown not only to use rocks or sticks, but to use a rock on a stick to poke a hole in hard shelled food sources. Thus, the tool argument is also out.

No, unique to humans is only one thing, as near as I can tell:

It is our unique ability to deliberately choose the wrong tool for the job that separates us from other creatures. This was blatantly displayed to me when my father was working on a car of his. He was laying on his back under the vehicle and was trying to remove a bolt. First he reached for the ratchet, but all three of the sockets he had brought with him were the wrong size. Rather than get out from under the car, stand up, and walk the whole 20 or so yards to the toolbox in the garage, he grabbed the pliers and tried to remove the bolt with those. His knuckles regretted it fairly seriously.

Only a human would have the unique combination of foolishness and lazyness to fail to walk 20 yards to get the right tool, but would rather injure h9imself trying to use the wrong tool.


On the other hand, I have found only a few jobs for which a good heavy lager isn't the right tool ;)
 
Tai Goo said:
The problems I see with most scientists is that they don’t factor in enough variables, They always want to leave out the possible negative long term side effects and the social, political, cultural,… “human factor“. So, the good scientific discoveries get abused and misused time and time again. I think history proves that. When will they figure it out?…
Click to expand...

Coming from the perspective of someone working in a scientific discipline, I find that it is more often big business and politicians that abuse the results of scientific inquiry rather than those of us working on the results themselves. The vast, vast majority of science that is disseminated to the general public is in the form of secondary sources (magazines, internet articles, news), and these secondary sources often add so much speculation and spin to the primary literature that they may be little more than opinion pieces.

Just my $.02 on the subject.
 
I just don’t see any hope for the future of a scientific approach to bladesmithing, (no matter how sincere it is)… except the total elimination of the individual bladesmith... obsolescence. That’s where it will lead. It’s self defeating.

I see the future of bladesmithing as a traditional and cultural art/craft (no matter how imperfect or illogical it is). That’s where the hope is…
 
Dan Zawacki said:
I hear a lot of things being posed as what separates us from other animals. While this is the first time I've heard beer as the primary difference, I've heard a slew of others...
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To drink beer you must have opposable thumbs! Now, reasoning is what separates us from the other animals and improper reasoning concerning the use of science and technology is what got us to where we are today for better or worse. It is a fine line between fishing and sitting on the dock drunk.
 
If we can make the argument that it's NOT the scientist's fault when science gets abused and misused,... then how much credit can we give scientists when things go right? The credit should also go to politicians, big business, and society.

It's a self defeating irresponsible argument.
 
mhawg said:
To drink beer you must have opposable thumbs!
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That's incorrect! I've seen dogs drink beer off the floor with just their tongues. :D

I've never seen dogs make beer though...

... and actually it was sex, not science and technology that got us where we are today.
 
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Tai,

with all due respect, "science" or "knowledge" is neither good nor bad, it just "is".

It is what one DOES with knowledge that can be good or bad - and that comes from human nature.

For instance, curare is a very potent nerve blocking poison that can be used ( and HAS been used ) very effectively to kill living organisms. We know at a cellular level how it works - ie the science part. But derivatives of curare are also used in anesthesia to "prevent" damage to those undergoing surgery, and are also used to help those with some nerve disorders. That also comes from our understanding of how curare works. So the "science" behind curare - is it good or bad????

As far as bladesmithing and science - I don't believe I've ever heard anyone on this forum say that bladesmithing is purely or only a "science", nor that everyone should treat it as such.

Any endeavor in which there is room for individuality and creativity is also an art - certainly my field, medicine, contains BOTH art and science. I think that is true of almost any field - even particle physics!

However, to deny scientific aspects of medicine (or bladesmithing or physics) does not ADD to the human experience but rather SUBTRACTS from it. Just because we can never know all the answers does not mean we should not look - and that is what "science" really is ---- a search for knowledge

Bill
 
billf, that's true. Science is a type of "search for knowledge",... not a search for wisdom.

Everything has scientific aspects,... nothing special. So What? It just is,... not good or bad...

Science is elementary... It's the easy part of art. :)

About all I ever hear are guys regurgitating facts, and saying things that have already been said by someone else... and expecting some kind of credit for that. I think it's pretty lame...
 
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Tai Goo said:
About all I ever hear are guys regurgitating facts, and saying things that have already been said by someone else... and expecting some kind of credit for that. I think it's pretty lame...
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Yet you do exactly the same thing. I think it's pretty lame you keep regurgitating mystical/philosphical BS that's already been said by others and expecting credit for it, or twist it around to get across your own pathetic broken record anti-this this anti-that veiws.

Others may regurgitate facts or link to relevant information, but 90% of the time that helps others here interested in the craft, while all you repost is some crap here or there in an attempt to antogonise those who don't follow your little conspiracy theory veiws.
 
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I'm not sure why you feel the need to assign either blame or credit on such a broad scale to anyone.

Also, if this is more about the application of advanced/modern technology in knifemaking (as it seems that this is where this thread is going now), I can't really make an educated opinion on that as I have barely begun getting my feet wet in this craft. When the thread began it seemed much broader and more abstract, though.
 
In a philosophical bent, as it applies to bladesmithing, I find personally that I would have to agree with Tai Goo on one point. A PURELY scientific approach is a self defeating approach, as individually we would simply never be able to compete with the heavy hitters in the steel industry, and a company that wanted to create the scientifically superior blade and was willing to put forth the initial investment would be able to in fairly short order create semi mass produced works that would be as good or better than anything the individual smith can produce.

On the other hand, as creative artists, we have a distinct edge (forgive the pun) on industry and mass capitalism. Individual smiths make unique handcrafted works that are both very functional and incredibly expressive.

Utilizing the greatest amount of scientific knowledge available / practical to make our works more functional is not a crime, but it is not the be all and end all of the smith's shop either. Without the intent, the conception, and the effort that is required to bring the execution to life, the art of the knifemaker is dead. Acquiring scientific knowledge is a grand endeavor, to be sure, but if you can't put it to use, then there was little point in its acquisition.

Any monkey (figuratively speaking of course) can learn the basics of metallurgy well enough to heat treat a bar of steel. With practice, any monkey can do it well. It takes a particular type of creative effort to make a well executed knife. Certainly, the heat treat is incredibly important to how well that blade will ultimately perform, as is the balance, profile, various tapers, edge geometry, ad nauseum. However, all of these things can be perfect, and you could still be holding a dead, lifeless, ugly peice of mass produced steel. There is artistry and, for want of a better term "magic" in the blade shaped by the caring hand of a smith who loves his art. An ambiance of tradition and craftsmanship, a visceral feeling that may be purely psychosematic, but is nonetheless real to those of us who can appreciate it. Just because something is all in your head doesn't mean it isn't real. Emotion and reaction are all in your head. Does that mean it hurts any less when you part ways with a loved one?

All Tai seems to be arguing for, in the long run, is that we reconsider the way we think about these things. I don't even see him asking us to change our minds. If we mindfully and carefully reconsider our perspective, and yet still come to the same conclusions GREAT! At least then, we have thought for ourselves and not simply learned by rote the metallographical dictionary so commonly slung around these boards, simply because it's what all the other smiths are doing.

Sure, all that metallurgical knowledge will come in quite handy, but there is more to it all than just metallurgical superiority.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
..., skin grafting, microsurgery, viagra, radio...
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There's where your philosophy meets science, Tai!;):D


Mr. Zawacki, as usual, I agree wholeheartedly with your posts. Well thought out, and well expressed!

It's strange - I seem to engage and reject these meaningless threads with no apparent pattern. It's the same old travel-worn trail, but nonetheless I keep adding footprints to it. I wonder why I'm drawn to them...
 
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