WE Knife opinions

[Banter 247]

This is the kind of testing the knife industry needs!

This was my main concern with Chinese knives as well. I can examine fit and finish, but I'm not an experienced sharpener and will not test a knife until its failure point. I can be impressed visually with a knife and not know that they only heat treated their M390 to 59 or 60, negating the purpose of even using it over S35VN in the first place. Same goes if someone got overzealous with the belt sander at sharpening time and damaged the edge heat treat. Maybe some professional sharpeners can also chime in on this and tell us who does which steels right! Perhaps some destructive testing can be done on the handle slabs, lock inserts, and the like to make sure the materials are as-advertised as well.

I purchased a midtech I was impressed with. Turns out, he sourced his parts from WE. This expanded my mind and led me to Reate which also impressed me and now I have three (K-2, K-3, J.A.C.K.) and am looking at one more. In fact, they are now my 2nd favorite knifemaker (mass production) overall I'd say. It kind of hurts to write this as I had written of Chinese knives as cheap clones and imitations but at the end of the day knives are relatively low-tech and as long as people are honest and put in the time, a good product can be put out. I talked a lot of s*** and now have to eat crow, despite my continued suspicion of possible deception on materials used or quality of heat treating/sharpening. That said WE and Reate are the only Chinese makers I would buy from because I've seen people on these forums provide evidence of some of the other "quality" brands (like Rike) ripping off other people or producing clones other another name. Also I think WE could provide a better edge from the factory. All the ones I've seen are crazy obtuse and even safe to handle. This is easily remedied with a sharpening but Reate blows them completely out of the water on this.

Now as far as blade edges go.....I'd like to see that kind of testing done industry wide. I'm sure more than a few domestic companies would also get caught slipping on at least one or two of the steels they offer. Remember the ZT/Elmax debacle? If I remember right they never copped to anything despite evidence to the contrary. I would love to know which companies consistently DON'T burn their edges and run the supersteels at hardnesses that make them perform like supersteels, vs S35VN at an increased price.

Funny how interests change....at one point I was a straight-ZT whore. But they haven't put out anything interesting to me in some time (seriously, get some more 4" or more blades going).

Now, the only US makers I watch with interest are Valence, Hoback, and Hinderer. Shirogorov and Reate are my top 2 overseas makers and I'm looking at maybe getting a Cheburkov soon.

Regarding factory edges and grinds, I focus on behind the edge dimension (for the unfamiliar: the measurement of thickness at the shoulder where the secondary bevel transitions into the primary grind) over secondary edge angle or apex status in reviews, specifically because secondary edge angle and apex are controllables. While a full regrind is technically possible on any blade, it’s not a thing many people are interested in doing.

With that in mind, my experience with WE grinds has been amazing. They frequently grind to less than .020” behind the edge/bte. I’ve experienced this first hand with two Keens, two Threshers, two Bishops, a Bullit, two Rectifiers, a Pleroma, a Civivi (WE budget brand) Wyvern, etc. It’s not necessarily universal, but common enough to be a safe bet.

With those grinds, it’s easy to unlock them. My Keens are each wearing 17dps secondary angles, and are each still around .018” bte. They cut like crazy.

Kudos to you for your shift in thinking as better information was made available to you. I respect that.

 

[marrenmiller]

Regarding factory edges and grinds, I focus on behind the edge dimension (for the unfamiliar: the measurement of thickness at the shoulder where the secondary bevel transitions into the primary grind) over secondary edge angle or apex status in reviews, specifically because secondary edge angle and apex are controllables. While a full regrind is technically possible on any blade, it’s not a thing many people are interested in doing.

With that in mind, my experience with WE grinds has been amazing. They frequently grind to less than .020” behind the edge/bte. I’ve experienced this first hand with two Keens, two Threshers, two Bishops, a Bullit, two Rectifiers, a Pleroma, a Civivi (WE budget brand) Wyvern, etc. It’s not necessarily universal, but common enough to be a safe bet.

With those grinds, it’s easy to unlock them. My Keens are each wearing 17dps secondary angles, and are each still around .018” bte. They cut like crazy.

Kudos to you for your shift in thinking as better information was made available to you. I respect that.

I've noticed the same thing. They'll take a primary grind thinner than most American companies seem to. I really appreciate it during reprofiling time.

 

[slyraven]

Agreed. WE is doing great work but Reate is next level. The choices today under $300USD are amazing.



Simply not true. Take a hard look at any currency exchange to compare the USD to the CNY. WE is buying M390 in quantity from Bohler in CNY. Their cost is more not less than a US domestic manufacturer. Production costs of CNC machining is heavy on the equipment side, not on inexpensive labor. Americans enjoy low price on the retail side due to our current USD purchasing power. 1 USD = 6.72CNY. So that $300 knife in USD is $2,016CNY. That's 1/10 of the average yearly income in China in yuan.

That doesn't make sense to the situation, because the exchange is messed up when its pitted against national companies who have to charge more for their items because they pay electricity and higher wages. So a 300 dollar knife made here can be sold to us by WE for $200.

of course, it all gets a little fishy about "brand" and advertising costs..so that's really hard to determine.

you are incorrect that they do not have a lower cost, they pay employees less even with the exchange rates, those employees simply live where they work in full blown paid for by the government communities, and pay way less in resources like electricity if they pay at all. They pay less in regulation costs and workers compensation and healthcare etc. The government heavily subsidizes their industry to stay dominate on a global scale.

What you are describing is a 1 to 1 exchange but its not so simple as that.

So, in my opinion, its not fair to say..but..but..china products are high quality and cheaper than the US! Its simply no contest with their advantages Us companies have to at least pay a minimum wage and may times to get good skilled talent they have to pay an actual living wage on top of regulations, on top of workmans comp and top of insurence, on top of health insurance on top of unemployment on top of taxes that do not favor manufacturing here on top of high energy costs.

 

[slyraven]

Why not? We as consumers get to choose between both options, and lately companies like ZT and Benchmade have been dropping the ball so hard that it makes the choice easier than ever.

US companies should be beating WE in terms of design and warranty support. I don't need my knives to be made incredibly well if they are well thought out, refined, tested, and supported by the maker. If they can't do that, then that's their fault.

I agree that choice is good and I agree that Us companies have become a bit slacked. I have no arguements with you there

All politics aside, which I honestly hate talking about, I could recomend WE knives to people, I just have my own reservations about it. I never claimed WE knives were bad quality.

 

[Dknight16]

Kizer brought high quality for low prices. Looked like an interesting value proposition. Then they raised prices to near US levels. Later WE and Reate went even higher to reach US mid-tech prices. What happened to the China value proposition? Pass.

 

[Mo2]

Also I think WE could provide a better edge from the factory. All the ones I've seen are crazy obtuse and even safe to handle. This is easily remedied with a sharpening but Reate blows them completely out of the water on this.

Reate are thicker behind the edge than we. Liong Mah has some new models this year made by Reate that are actually thin behind the edge. Basically a first for reate. To be fair reate has been following zt in that aspect of thick behind the edge.
But I have seen reate post 61hrc m390 ht papers via bohler on there ig (or it was there in house designer I forgot).

 

[Mo2]

Kizer brought high quality for low prices. Looked like an interesting value proposition. Then they raised prices to near US levels. Later WE and Reate went even higher to reach US mid-tech prices. What happened to the China value proposition? Pass.

I wouldn't call Kizer high quality at all. They are budget brand. They just offer better materials for cheaper. But the ht is still only 58hrc across the board and they have a fair amount of fit and finish issues like off center plunge grinds, varying detents etc and just whack quality control. I mean look how the feist went. What a disaster that was.

Indeed prices went up because the vendors selling them demanded more profits, so map was added. Heck I can buy any Kizer for 100 cheaper a few months after releasing. And they don't keep there value.

 

[falar]

Reate are thicker behind the edge than we. Liong Mah has some new models this year made by Reate that are actually thin behind the edge. Basically a first for reate. To be fair reate has been following zt in that aspect of thick behind the edge.
But I have seen reate post 61hrc m390 ht papers via bohler on there ig (or it was there in house designer I forgot).

I won't argue who is thicker or thinner behind the edge. I was merely referring to the factory sharpening.

 

[akadave2]

You implied that manufacturers take all the profits from their workers leaving them in a similar situation to sweatshops in China whether you "said it" or not. And dont conflate US companies differing in how they value a particular job. Burger flippers at McDonalds have no to low skills and can be replaced easily and this is what that kind of job is for, a transitional one. However once you have a marketable SKILL, its a different game. People, especially millennials dont get that.

Again, you are conflating things.

I never said anyone was a slave or being exploited in the US, and never said they were not being exploited in China. But the standard assumption that everyone who works in China is being exploited is also incorrect. And if you don't think there are American companies that treat workers like expendable tools...

 

[Mo2]

But I have seen reate post 61hrc m390 ht papers via bohler on there ig (or it was there in house designer I forgot).

Via
https://www.instagram.com/p/7kYbhVzDSz/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=r510nkp5wrwq

 

[falar]

That's cool but doesn't M390 only really strongly outperform some of the lesser steels at 62-63 HRC?

 

[Mo2]

That's cool but doesn't M390 only really strongly outperform some of the lesser steels at 62-63 HRC?

You generally only see it heat treated to 58 to 60. So 61 is a rare bird. And if you know how the hrc scale works, its a sliding scale. Meaning after 60hrc every step after is multiplied. In any case your right. Ideally about 62hrc would be idea.

 

[SeppukuSamurai]

I'm just unsure of what goes on there to pay them more then 50 dollars for a knife. I know in the tech industry Chinese companies will claim to be a legitimate manufacturer and create more expensive products but what really happened was they just white label their crap. This is what I mean by claiming they are a legitimate knife maker but in actuality who knows what goes on in their factory? Here in th USA we have ways to know that, there, we do not. This is my reservation to spend a higher amount on ANY chinese brand. Im not picking on WE, only this thread is about WE. This is my own reservation.

My friend, I'm going to take a step back and apologize if I've come off like a tool, that wasn't my intention in the slightest. You made a great point when you mentioned that we should both enjoy the knife discussion. I totally agree. That being said, let's get down to it.

I won't even begin to argue that there's A LOT of "cloak and dagger" sort of behavior when it comes to China and their manufacturing practices. I totally agree. With that being said, however, WE knives has been commissioned by multiple established and respected knife makers here in the U.S. in order to produce their "mid-tech" or "production" variants of their knife models. Given that and the fact that I'm pretty sure I have laid eyes on a number of third party Rockwell/steel tests verifying their claims, I can't see why you're discrediting the company solely due to the origin of the manufacturing. Also, they're widely and very well reviewed. Almost exclusively positive, save for design differences. That's really the only issue I've drawn from your posts/statements.

Secondly, I've more or less become entirely disenchanted with the whole country of origin thing. Have you, by chance, looked into DDR/Lucky 13/Heeter Knives? All of them very high-end U.S.A manufacturers (just using these as an example, I could cite many more.) There's an entire Instagram page dedicated to their deceit/folly. Multiple posts here, in regards to DDR, as well. While I wouldn't venture to make any assertions about any of the three companies personally, it definitely illustrates the fact that it's next to impossible, save for laying your own eyes upon it, to verify the veracity of any company's claim.

Either way, I will continue to enjoy knives from around the world. I love my Reates, my Shiros, my Hobacks, my Ziebas, my Marfiones, my Emersons, etc....

 

[falar]

You generally only see it heat treated to 58 to 60. So 61 is a rare bird. And if you know how the hrc scale works, its a sliding scale. Meaning after 60hrc every step after is multiplied. In any case your right. Ideally about 62hrc would be idea.

The only reason I worded it that way is there is no way to control it to the tenth, so 61.7-62.5 would be ideal outcomes, in my opinion, with anything in that 62.x range being "perfect". Agreed that 61 makes them better than most as to get "ideal" I'm sure you need to go with a smaller custom maker. I just wish we could identify as end-users where all the steels from the major players in high end knives are in hardness. From some makers you are wasting your money paying a premium for M390 because if they're only bringing it to 58 or 59 then there is no point.

I still think some of the commercial knife sharpeners could shed some light on this for us since people send them any and all makes.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Thats a great chart! lots of info. Sadly on one WE and it fell short.

It’s worth noting that the ASTM standard for Rockwell hardness testing notes that acceptance testing is typically done with values rounded to the nearest whole number. If that’s the case, a 58.7 would actually be compliant with WE’s advertised 59 on the low end.

 

[Mo2]

The only reason I worded it that way is there is no way to control it to the tenth, so 61.7-62.5 would be ideal outcomes, in my opinion with anything in that 62.x range being "perfect". Agreed that 61 makes them better than most as to get "ideal" I'm sure you need to go with a smaller custom maker. I just wish we could identify as end-users where all the steels from the major players in high end knives are in hardness. From some makers you are wasting your money paying a premium for M390 because if they're only bringing it to 58 or 59 then there is no point.

I still think some of the commercial knife sharpeners could shed some light on this for us since people send them any and all makes.

Sharpening can't tell you everything you need to know but gives some perspective... But you could sharpen the same model but 3 different knives completely and they may sharpen differently. Or ssme MFG with different models with the same steels. The ht process in mass production isn't an exact art imho.

Not to mention hrc isn't going to tell you how well the ht actually is. It won't show you grain size. It only shows hardness. You can perform 3 different heat treatments and still get the same hrc in each. Each of those three blades will have different properties. One could have been poorly done, but all we can read is the hrc which sucks. Because hrc is not an indication of a good heat treatment or performance.

Edit to add...
This scares me with some of these nobie knife brands that are in the spreadsheet .. The makers see them and want to imrprove the hrc... But will they be doing the ht right or just artificially inflating the hrc.

 

[DrRollinstein]

Kizer brought high quality for low prices. Looked like an interesting value proposition. Then they raised prices to near US levels. Later WE and Reate went even higher to reach US mid-tech prices. What happened to the China value proposition? Pass.

The We knives are a better value than most comparable US knives. They aren't too high.

Already made the integral comparison with benchmade.

They have a slight budget line for $146 a piece on blade hq. These knives have generally superior fit and finish compared to most other brands, while having m390 over the very common S30V that most American companies use at that price. Mainly Spyderco and Benchmade with their Pm2's and Shamans and 940's and Mini crooked rivers. Hell a lot of those knives are closer to the 200 mark.

And then you have the Civivi line, likely the best budget knives on earth.

 

[Alsharif]

I fully support those of you who won’t buy Chinese made knives. It leaves more for those of us who aren’t silly.

That doesn't make sense. It's a market economy, supply and demand.

 

[Hackenslash]

The point below is well taken. If you’re going to hold suspect the specific Chinese manufacturers discussed in this thread, then you need to hold suspect the western designers who contract with them to manufacture production versions of their custom knives. That list has some heavy hitters like Liong Mah, Ray Laconico, Todd Begg, Eric Ochs, Matt Cuchiarra and Brad Zinker to name a few. If you’re going to hold suspect these designers, then you likewise should condemn domestic manufacturers who collaborate with them.

The entire myopic view of “China knifes BAD!” becomes illogical and indefensible as you paint yourself into a smaller and smaller corner.

It reaches the point where one must logically employ trust to a huge segment of the knife industry who’ve found the manufacturers in question to be acceptable to contract with. Without that, take up stamp collecting.

I understand the caution that should be used with an unvalidated industry, but the relevance of that viewpoint to Chinese production knives (from the companies in question) is 5 to 10 years out of date.

My friend, I'm going to take a step back and apologize if I've come off like a tool, that wasn't my intention in the slightest. You made a great point when you mentioned that we should both enjoy the knife discussion. I totally agree. That being said, let's get down to it.

I won't even begin to argue that there's A LOT of "cloak and dagger" sort of behavior when it comes to China and their manufacturing practices. I totally agree. With that being said, however, WE knives has been commissioned by multiple established and respected knife makers here in the U.S. in order to produce their "mid-tech" or "production" variants of their knife models. Given that and the fact that I'm pretty sure I have laid eyes on a number of third party Rockwell/steel tests verifying their claims, I can't see why you're discrediting the company solely due to the origin of the manufacturing. Also, they're widely and very well reviewed. Almost exclusively positive, save for design differences. That's really the only issue I've drawn from your posts/statements.

Secondly, I've more or less become entirely disenchanted with the whole country of origin thing. Have you, by chance, looked into DDR/Lucky 13/Heeter Knives? All of them very high-end U.S.A manufacturers (just using these as an example, I could cite many more.) There's an entire Instagram page dedicated to their deceit/folly. Multiple posts here, in regards to DDR, as well. While I wouldn't venture to make any assertions about any of the three companies personally, it definitely illustrates the fact that it's next to impossible, save for laying your own eyes upon it, to verify the veracity of any company's claim.

Either way, I will continue to enjoy knives from around the world. I love my Reates, my Shiros, my Hobacks, my Ziebas, my Marfiones, my Emersons, etc....

 

[SeppukuSamurai]

The point below is well taken. If you’re going to hold suspect the specific Chinese manufacturers discussed in this thread, then you need to hold suspect the western designers who contract with them to manufacture production versions of their custom knives. That list has some heavy hitters like Liong Mah, Ray Laconico, Todd Begg, Eric Ochs, Matt Cuchiarra and Brad Zinker to name a few. If you’re going to hold suspect these designers, then you likewise should condemn domestic manufacturers who collaborate with them.

The entire myopic view of “China knifes BAD!” becomes illogical and indefensible as you paint yourself into a smaller and smaller corner.

It reaches the point where one must logically employ trust to a huge segment of the knife industry who’ve found the manufacturers in question to be acceptable to contract with. Without that, take up stamp collecting.

I understand the caution that should be used with an unvalidated industry, but the relevance of that viewpoint to Chinese production knives (from the companies in question) is 5 to 10 years out of date.

Well said and totally agreed.