WE Knife opinions

[Mo2]

(I stopped reading after one or two pages, so I'm not sure where we are in this thread, but I'm probably taking the discussion in another direction.)

As far as quality goes, I've owned We knives before -- as well as Kizers -- and I think both of them do a great job. The action is often very, very good, and the fit and finish -- even when it's tricky, like with carbon fiber inlays -- is *usually* quite good, as well. My objections to We are almost entirely on aesthetic grounds, which means that if you and I don't share the same tastes, you won't agree with me:

1. Feminine. Some of their knives look, well, a bit feminine to me, with the choice of ano color -- particularly the pink ones. You may say that their are lady knife collectors out there, which is a fair point. Maybe that's is the demographic We is going for with those knives.
2. Snakeskin. I've seen at least one knife of theirs that has scales patterned like snakeskin. Too much. Too froo froo.
3. Non-matching hardware. This drives me crazy. They'll make a beautiful knife where the top half of the scales is anodized blue, and the bottom is carbon fiber. Very, very nice. Then they'll ruin the look by using yellow screws and pivot because they couldn't be bothered to make hardware to match. I've seen this on some of their newer models, where they have three identical knives that only vary in the ano, and only one knife has matching hardware. I want to go all Louis C.K. on them when they do this.
4. Non-torx screws. Thankfully, this problem is on the way out, I think. Many of us remember the days of trying to use that weird little tool in the We star screws.

Out of all of these problems, 1 and 2 are pretty personal in taste, and 4 is either gone or will be gone, but 3 still remains a problem that I think many would agree is borderline ugly.

I don't disagree but also that's not every one of there in house designs. But most of them.

The other thing is they manufacture for other designers were none of that is an issue. But those designs may have there own issues due to other reasons.

 

[marrenmiller]

This is where I mentioned hrc means very little. Because that 20cv was from buck. And it was put through cut tests and shown to perform better than even the higher hrc knives. Bucks heat treatment process includes ln2 cryogenic process.

This is why that chart is kind of bad idea. People see numbers and assume performance based on them.

That's possible, but didn't Larrin do a whole article on cryo? IIRC he couldn't find a difference in wear resistance between two steels at identical hardness with and without cryo. It seems more logical to me that somebody should recheck their hardness testing results with a different machine or at a different facility, or that cutting performance (ie. geometry) was measured rather than wear resistance.

 

[Mo2]

That's possible, but didn't Larrin do a whole article on cryo? IIRC he couldn't find a difference in wear resistance between two steels at identical hardness with and without cryo. It seems more logical to me that somebody should recheck their hardness testing results with a different machine or at a different facility, or that cutting performance (ie. geometry) was measured rather than wear resistance.

Ive seen way to many bucks in 420hc out perform any other 420hc and a fair amount of knives using ln2 out perform the regular to say that it's false. You can believe the article you sourced or you can believe the cut tests done elsewhere or even test the theory yourself. What you choose is up to you and believe what one you choose. The buck knives have been tested by multiple sources and they know what they are doing for the heat treatment. Can't deny the results. 8 times out of 10 a cryo treatment is going to perform over a knife that hasn't been. But there are always exceptions to that. As not all steel needs it as discussed in his article. Here's a write up on it by Jay Fisher.
https://www.jayfisher.com/Heat_Trea...fe_Blade_Steels.htm#Cold_Very_Cold_Cryogenics
Maybe he'd comment on the benefits and believe a maker like @JayFisher

 

[Cosmodragoon]

... Some of their knives look, well, a bit feminine to me... Non-matching hardware. This drives me crazy. They'll make a beautiful knife where the top half of the scales is anodized blue, and the bottom is carbon fiber...

I prefer more traditional designs and some of WE's knives look more like modern art than hard-use tools. I also don't like the trend of loud color-accenting on some of these otherwise amazing Chinese-made knives. I've come to accept the gold accents on the Civivi knives because the quality is astounding for the price and the color isn't too far out. However, the blue liners on the Baklash have kept me from buying one.

 

[dirc]

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/

3 parts, read them all... the real benefit of cryo is low temp performance imho

 

[AF]

Cryo is great, it provides an uplift to performance but that doesn't excuse running a steel below its ideal hardness.

 

[Sharperthansticks]

My favorite We knife is the Roxi, designed by "Zelrick" and his brother. I did a tiny amount of surgery (Dremeling) on the back side to take down a couple of hot spots in my palm, and then I really came to like this knife.

More pictures.

 

[tiguy7]

It may not be everything but man, if that knife performed well as low as 57 it tosses my understanding of blades upside down.

That just seems crazy soft to stand with the best.

This is not “rocket science”. Knives can get wear resistance not only from the geometry of the crystal lattice (HRC) but also from the number and hardness of inclusions in said lattice. I have some Stellite blades that Rockwell in the mid forties but out cut ZDP-189 at 67HRC. Generally speaking the inclusions do not effect the HRC reading because they are pushed out of the way by the tester’s Diamond pyramid.

 

[Banter 247]

Regarding steel, hardness/hrc, etc:

1. It’s true that HRC isn’t the “only thing”. It’s also true that it is definitely a big factor in many applications. It’s not hard to construct support for hrc being among the most relevant factors in typical EDC use of production folders. [note: production folders = generally 15-22dps edge angles, and common steels]

When Larrin developed his predictive math for CATRA, it was a function of hardness, edge angle, and composition. Given those, the outcome became pretty predictable.

Similarly, and this shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone given that CATRA media is “5% silica impregnated cardstock” (similar to cardboard), three different YouTube testers using cardboard as test media have been getting very similar ranges of results, using similar methodology, with hrc being a big predictor of performance. People like to handwave away these tests as unscientific, but the fact of the matter is that they are predictable and repeatable, which means that they have value.

2. Rope tests and other types may produce result stratification different from cardboard or CATRA tests, as materials and cut motions change the ways in which a blade is stressed, also emphasizing properties to varying degrees. So, Pete (Cedric & Ada channel) consistently has M390/20CV/204P results beating S35VN, S30V, etc, where cardboard tests may have S30V beating M390, for example, if the hrc of the S30V sample is higher than the hrc of the M390.

We can bury ourselves in endless circular talk about specifics of why the stratification lines up differently, or we can step back, acknowledge that certain patterns are predictable and replicable, and draw simple conclusions from that.

For example:

In my daily life, I work in a retail/warehouse environment. I cut a lot of cardboard, zip ties, plastic packaging, plastic banding straps, etc. I don’t cut rope, or hide, or sandpaper, or carpet.

Unsurprisingly, “backyard” cardboard tests line up really, really well with my use and experience.

I suspect that, if people were to consider their use, many would find the same to be true for them.

 

[K.O.D.]

My only issue with WE (and several other of the top tier Chinese knife companies), and why I own only one, is that the all-Ti/anodized Ti/Cf and Ti design aesthetic is not what I prefer, generally. But I have handled a WE that I was considering as a gift for a friend, and it was very nice.

I am truly sick of plain metal handles. They just bore me. However, I'm a sucker for CF. The only WE knife I'm interested in is the Deacon. In purple.

I love my Ferrum Forge Gent select and wish they would make a larger knife with CF or wood scales.

 

[Mo2]

I am truly sick of plain metal handles. They just bore me. However, I'm a sucker for CF. The only WE knife I'm interested in is the Deacon. In purple.

I love my Ferrum Forge Gent select and wish they would make a larger knife with CF or wood scales.

It looks nice. Here's a good review on it.

 

[marrenmiller]

Ive seen way to many bucks in 420hc out perform any other 420hc and a fair amount of knives using ln2 out perform the regular to say that it's false. You can believe the article you sourced or you can believe the cut tests done elsewhere or even test the theory yourself. What you choose is up to you and believe what one you choose. The buck knives have been tested by multiple sources and they know what they are doing for the heat treatment. Can't deny the results. 8 times out of 10 a cryo treatment is going to perform over a knife that hasn't been. But there are always exceptions to that. As not all steel needs it as discussed in his article. Here's a write up on it by Jay Fisher.
https://www.jayfisher.com/Heat_Trea...fe_Blade_Steels.htm#Cold_Very_Cold_Cryogenics
Maybe he'd comment on the benefits and believe a maker like @JayFisher

I'm not saying cryo doesn't help. I'm saying it looks like the real advantage of cryo is that it allows for higher hardnesses to be obtained. In the case of 420HC, high obtainable hardnesses will lead to noticeably better wear results. From what I understand about how the phase of the steel changes while in quench, it makes sense to me that two identical knives at identical hardness, obtained with and without crying, would perform similarly.

 

[taste.blade]

I have considered purchasing several WE knives and more recently the Civivi Line. The only WE knives are own are collaborations, with well done F&F.

My concern with WE and the Civivi line is that Civivi is attempting the maintain a budget and WE prices are skyrocketing. Nothing negative to say about the manufacturing location.

 

[Banter 247]

I'm not saying cryo doesn't help. I'm saying it looks like the real advantage of cryo is that it allows for higher hardnesses to be obtained. Because of what cryo processing is doing In the case of 420HC, high obtainable hardnesses will lead to noticeably better wear results. From what I understand about how the phase of the steel changes while in quench, it makes sense to me that two identical knives at identical hardness, obtained with and without crying, would perform similarly.

This is basically in line with what Larrin concluded re: cryo.

 

[Banter 247]

I have considered purchasing several WE knives and more recently the Civivi Line. The only WE knives are own are collaborations, with well done F&F.

My concern with WE and the Civivi line is that Civivi is attempting the maintain a budget and WE prices are skyrocketing. Nothing negative to say about the manufacturing location.

Re: WE prices skyrocketing:

Counterpoints: their Massdrop collaborations are very competitively priced. Consider the Gent, Crux, Keen, and Thresher as examples. They also have in house models like the Practic and Streak, which pair their build quality with [generally pricey] steels at very competitive prices.

It’s less accurate to say that their prices are increasing than it is to say that the range of their pricing is expanding. That’s an important distinction. The Practic and Streak each came out in about the past year, at $146 each.

 

[marrenmiller]

This is basically in line with what Larrin concluded re: cryo.

Yep. I don't buy it when people suggest that cryo at non-cryo hardness does anything at all. Cryo is the way by which M390 obtains 62-63 HRC levels of hardness, rather than something that aids it while at that hardness.

There's been a lot of hardness tests floating around recently that I honestly don't know what to make of. I'm tempted to say that, until I see values corroborated by a lab or by the OEMs themselves, I'm not much interested in the test results of their supposedly "calibrated" machines.

 

[falar]

Yep. I don't buy it when people suggest that cryo at non-cryo hardness does anything at all. Cryo is the way by which M390 obtains 62-63 HRC levels of hardness, rather than something that aids it while at that hardness.

There's been a lot of hardness tests floating around recently that I honestly don't know what to make of. I'm tempted to say that, until I see values corroborated by a lab or by the OEMs themselves, I'm not much interested in the test results of their supposedly "calibrated" machines.

I'd like to see what Vanax 37/Superclean is like with a great cryo heat treat. I was reading the threads on that steel in the past week and because the manufacturer states you can't go above 60 without cryo (with you can hit 61-62 but give up some toughness/corrosion resistance) most people are saying that 60 is the limit and that's where they're running. Considering how much toughness and corrosion resistance it has to spare and how its edge retention is on that rope cutting channel color me interested.

 

[Banter 247]

There's been a lot of hardness tests floating around recently that I honestly don't know what to make of. I'm tempted to say that, until I see values corroborated by a lab or by the OEMs themselves, I'm not much interested in the test results of their supposedly "calibrated" machines.

Regarding the testing, I think it’s probably all references to testing being done by one guy. The hrc testing for LTK, Supersteel Steve, Outpost76, InthePocket, etc— all of the testing shown on Blade Banter’s docs sheet, is all Kurt. I can certainly understand and respect people being wary of trusting a man in the shadows, so to speak. Having said that, a group of us (including Kurt) talk every day, and I know of two companies who have responded directly and sent follow up samples after poor (read as: out of range) results. I’ll never be a “trust me” guy, so take this as the anecdote it is, but Kurt is an academically curious guy, with no agenda. He’s cautious with tests, and is hungry to increase sample size so that we can get a better idea of what we should expect. Again, though, I neither ask nor expect for anyone to take my word for it. I’m just a guy on the internet.

 

[marrenmiller]

Regarding the testing, I think it’s probably all references to testing being done by one guy. The hrc testing for LTK, Supersteel Steve, Outpost76, InthePocket, etc— all of the testing shown on Blade Banter’s docs sheet, is all Kurt. I can certainly understand and respect people being wary of trusting a man in the shadows, so to speak. Having said that, a group of us (including Kurt) talk every day, and I know of two companies who have responded directly and sent follow up samples after poor (read as: out of range) results. I’ll never be a “trust me” guy, so take this as the anecdote it is, but Kurt is an academically curious guy, with no agenda. He’s cautious with tests, and is hungry to increase sample size so that we can get a better idea of what we should expect. Again, though, I neither ask nor expect for anyone to take my word for it. I’m just a guy on the internet.

That's what I'm referring to. I don't have anything against him or his data, but when people draw conclusions that have far reaching implications from his fairly limited subset of data (like what I've seen on SSS's channel), I can't help but be inclined to take the word of an OEM over a single data set like that.

 

[falar]

That's what I'm referring to. I don't have anything against him or his data, but when people draw conclusions that have far reaching implications from his fairly limited subset of data (like what I've seen on SSS's channel), I can't help but be inclined to take the word of an OEM over a single data set like that.

Well, when more and more cutting videos keep coming out where the trio of M390/20CV/204P don't really perform that much better than S30V or S35VN as supplied by most of the larger names in the business I think we'll see where his word stands.