what about TOPS?

Originally posted by AntDog

I have dealt with both Jerry Busse and Mike Fuller, and both have been more than willing to do anything they could to help me out. I don't buy a knife thinking "gee, what if I'm using this thing and it breaks" what B.S. I buy a knife for a specific use, and if it fails or does not meet my expectations, I contact the company.

Bingo! Exactly! No matter how you slice it, or no matter what the warranty claims, the warranty is ONLY as good as the man standing behind it.

I'm not sure how Busse got dragged into this. Someone posted above and undoubtedly thought I was making reference to Busse in some of my statements. I wasn't. Every dealing I have ever had with the man has been pleasurable and he does make a great knife. Personally I don't care for his flashy salesman type personality, BUT he does make a great knife and he seems to be honorable in his dealings...What more can you ask? With that said I could give the first sh*t about his warranty policy (or anyone elses). If the man behind the knife (and Company) is honorable, then the warranty is not worth the paper it's written on. However with all this Busse defense going on, now I wonder if there's more to the story.

My deal with Stamp started when he came on this thread and tried to lower-rate TOPS by using heresay with what happened to the Hood/TOPS Anaconda. This is typical for him and I'm tired of it.

As far as Eric goes, although I agree fully with Brian Jones post, I never considered him a serious combatant here because his whole argument is based on a written warranty without ever meeting the man behind the company or having ANY bad dealings with TOPS (or any dealings at all), so he's not speaking from direct experience - again, not a serious combatant and more of a sideline attraction on this thread Obviously he has never used a TOPS knife, met Mike Fuller, or dealt with him, but we continue to go down this road of questioning a man that's probably the most honorable man in the whole cutlery indutry. That was the reason for my offer to send him a knife. On the flip side, I have used Busse knives and enjoyed them, so I feel I can speak about both products from first-hand knowledge.

Brian, yes Mike has "been there done that" probably more so than anyone named on this thread. He's the real deal but refuses to brag about it like so many others in this business do.

 

Originally posted by Brian Jones
into a discussion that had nothing to do with you or your knives, in order to try and promote them.

Well kiss my grits and call me the dumbass. Am I reading this right? Is Eric in the knife business? Hell I thought he was just another user out here with an honorable bitch about a simple warranty statement. Now I see why all the fuss has come about from him. That's funny. Is Cliff in the knife business too?

 

[yardboy]

what is great about this thread is the fact that it is even
able to exsist. I have posted on other discussion forums south
of here...and if you're not an absolute drunk cheerleader for
their product or if you question any of their 'yes men' in
anyway that makes them uncomfortable your posts simply disappear
in to the night...

 

[contender]

it has become excruciatingly obvious that you just love to see your name in print.

I think it is time to end this literary diarrhea.

 

Uh-oh...I must have hit on a sensitive area, no?

 

[Dark Nemesis]

Originally posted by JeffRandall
Eric, if you will email me your address I will mail you a TOPS knife to beat the hell out of and play around with. It will cost you nothing but a few minutes of your time to send me an email. You can keep it for your own collection since I have a bunch of them.

Jeff:

Since Eric turned down the offer for a free knife, I'll take it!!! I might not be the brightest nuclear blast of the war but I know when to jump on something free

Any model would be great, but as women say...the bigger the better.Something like a 7" or 9" anaconda perhaps?

Figured I might as well give this thread on bright spot. And we all know that a knife nut getting a free knife is something for everyone to celebrate

 

[contender]

Just remember - be very CAREFUL with it !!

 

[King Grinch]

As I said before people will buy much more expensive stuff than I knife with a warranty that is no less that what a Cold Steel or TOPS knife warranty is.

EXAMPLE
Have you ever had a new roof put on the house? Most of the warranties are for ONLY 1 year. How much does it cost to get a new roof? What? $900-$2000?

Only what 2 Busse knives have broken? How many have they made? I don't believe it.

 

[Eric Isaacson]

It is now obvious to me that people can not honestly discuss this issue without making personal attacks. I will not stoop to this level. I did not question Mike Fullers integrity or honesty. I questioned TOPS business practices(specifically the warranty). I wasn't even the first to mention Mike Fuller by name, someone else brought him into this. I wanted to discuss TOPS the company.
You are correct I don't know Mike Fuller, I don't think it should be necessary to know him for me to understand TOPS.

You are also correct I am associated with the knife industry but I am not a knifemaker or company owner. I did not try to hide this fact. As a matter of fact I am involved only because I enjoy it and not for a paycheck(which is good because I've never received a paycheck).

If you would like to continue to attack me personally or attack my views please feel free to do so. I have stated my point several times, if you want clarification please email me privately e_isaacs@bellsouth.net If you would like to discuss this, email me and I will send you my phone number and we can talk.

Just to set the record straight I didn't make any personal attacks nor did I question anyone's integrity. I wanted a simple answer about the warranty.

 

[King Grinch]

Originally posted by Eric Isaacson

Just to set the record straight I didn't make any personal attacks nor did I question anyone's integrity. I wanted a simple answer about the warranty.

Why don't you just email or call TOPS?

 

Eric, that sounds fair to me. In fact, I'm not upset with anyone on this thread except Cliff Stamp and it's not as much this thread as a long track record of Cliff distorting and spinning things like he did the Anaconda heresay.

One of our un-named posters got the impression that I was implying Busse in this thread, which I was not. Hell, I'm a big fan of Busse knives. I had the chance to meet Jerry at last years Blade Show and he seems like a good man, but other than that one time meeting, I don't know him or the company. I have used his knives without fail. That's good enough for me. The same with TOPS. I have used a lot of their knives without failure, plus I know Mike Fuller's integrity from personal experience.

To be REAL honest with you I'm not so passionate about anyone's blades (including our own) that I can't find positive and negatives in all of them. Knives are a personal choice and whatever the customer wants and uses is what's right for that customer. It doesn't matter if it's a 5 dollar Tramontina or a 500 dollar custom. If it works for the job and doesn't let the user down then what's the big deal?

Folks have been surviving on cheap machetes for eons, so it has to be experience and use that has enabled that since they are not scientifically right according to the science gurus.

 

[JamesA]

Even those this thread seems to be winding down, I refuse to go along with the "I'm going to say my piece and then run away" attitude of this post.

Originally posted by Newt Livesay
JamesA;
Why would you say you would NOT buy a WOO because of my warranty? What part of my warranty do you not like that would be so terrible or misleading that you would deprive yourself of a WOO knife?

Why would I say it? Because I'm trying to get a straight answer out of you, on why the warranty is the way it is. If your blades can handle abuse, why not warranty them against abuse? Why ISN'T your warranty "Unless you meant to break it, we'll fix it?"

What part do I not like? This one: "We will not warranty any
knife that in our opinion has been abused, there are no exceptions." (Bold mine.)

I think that it either shows a lack of confidence in your blades and a lack of confidence in your customers, or the limitations of the design specifications. For a fixed blade like you sell, which I may need to use as to do something harder than peeling oranges, I want a blade which the maker in confident in, and which is designed to do more than open an envelope or whittle fuzz sticks.

I also, again, want a straight answer, even though you're not going to look at this thread again, so I'm really just putting it here for the benefit of the archives. If I break one of your knives digging a rock out of the ground, will you replace it? I keep seeing that we should be concerned with the actual warranty practices, not the written warranty, so I want to know outright: if I break one of your knives doing something that I thought it should be able to handle, will you replace it?

PS;
JamesA, forget those questions above. I do not want to sell you a knife sir. Thank you very kindly anyway. Goodbye

So you won't sell me a knife that I already told you that I didn't want, because I asked why your warranty says what it says?

For those of you who are still reading this thread -- did I unknowingly do something vicious and insulting in order to deserve a sour grapes response like that? Please let me know, so I won't do it again.

James

 

[elkhoundss]

wow, this thread has gotten a lot more attention than i figured it would. i have to say it has been entertaining. but here's the thing, my questions still stand. i haven't heard anything that convinces me that they are worth the asking price.

i have had the chance to handle some tops knives at a gun show, but they weren't what i was looking for at the time so i didn't spend much time at the booth. but i did remember the name because they seemed to be very well made, sturdy knives. so i looked them up on the internet to get more information and that's when these questions came to mind.

i don't really care about the warranty issue. i figure that any high-end knife company is going to stand by their product, they don't get anything out of producing crap. and i'm not some idiot that goes out to see how long it takes me to destroy a perfectly good knife. i'm sure that their warranty will more than suffice for what i intend to use it for, which is primarily hunting and camping. but i do see the reason for warranties stated the way they are because there are some real a$$holes out there. for example (a little tangent because this really chapps my hide) , last week i spent four days camping by a little resevoir that has some pretty terrain and some good fishing. well at the north and south end of the res. are some out-house type bathrooms. both of them had signs up that read "closed due to vandalism". now i don't care if there are bathrooms there or not, i'm just as happy digging a hole, but the point is what kind of stupid buttlick gets there kicks out of destroying toilets? the point is that these people exist, they are around us everyday and we all have to deal with them unless you are a hermit. so i can fully understand these men that are risking their livlihood having something to protect their a$$.

also, i don't even really care about tops the company that much. all i want to know is how are their knives?

so back to the real issue, what i want is a quality tool that i can use in the wilderness, around camp, and to feild dress game. is there a reason that tops would do me better than say fallkniven, marbles, or grohmann?

p.s. if you really need to bitch about warranties then maybe you need to take a look at what kind of person you are. are you somebody than can stand up and take responsibility for yourself and your actions, or are you a person that is always looking for someone else to save your a$$?

 

[Jerry Busse]

A warranty is a company’s way of stating not only their trust in their product, but their trust in their customer.

If I’m telling the consumer to trust his life and perhaps the lives of his family or others that he works with to the knife that I have made. . . . then isn’t it only right that I put the same level of trust in my customer in writing? I have had the same warranty for 20 years. I have had only one case where someone tried to hide what they had done to their knife and the knife was still replaced. (I'll try to post pics on the Busse Forum tonight)

If you put written limitations on the trust you have in your product and in your customer, then don’t stand with your jaw agape when someone questions you about your warranty or decides that perhaps they should limit the amount of trust that they put in you as a manufacturer.

Here’s my suggestion. If I’m supposed to put my trust in the man and not the product or the written warranty, then DO NOT HAVE a written warranty! Shake my hand, give me your word and I’m good to go. This is the point. Since it is not possible to shake everyone’s hand personally and look them in the eye and give them your word face to face, the written warranty becomes the “look in the eye”, the handshake, and the word of the man standing behind the product. Limited Lifetime warranties with a boat-load of clauses are comparable to a limp-wristed, wet-fish handshake.

As for those who claim to manufacture high performance, “bet your life on our knife”, bladeware. I believe that three important criteria should be met from makers in this industry.

1.) A REAL lifetime warranty.
2.) Published test data that clearly shows the performance capabilities of your product.
3.) Live destructive testing at trade shows that supports your claims.

If you are NOT willing to meet these 3 requirements, then don’t make claims or run ads that are intended to mislead the consumer into believing that they are purchasing some of the highest performance bladeware on the market. Call it like it is and let the consumer know what they can expect from the knives you manufacture.

Most consumers do not need or care if the knife they’re buying is the toughest, highest performance knife in the world. When I buy a deer rifle, I know that I’ll never get a shot at more than 100 yards in the terrain that I hunt in. It would therefore, be foolish of me to spend the extra money on a Match grade rifle that is capable of outrageous groups at 500 yards. I don’t need it, I’ll never use it, and I don’t want to pay for it. But, when I buy a rifle, I do want to know what kind of group it is capable of achieving when secured in a Ransom rest. I do not want the manufacturer to tell me that controlled tests like the Ransom rest don’t have anything to do with “real world” experiences. It’s idiotic. I know for a fact that if a gun is only capable of shooting a 12 inch group when mounted in a Ransom rest, that it is not going to “magically” shoot a 1 inch group when I’m out in the “real world” deer hunting. If a knife fails to perform sufficiently in a controlled test, then how can it possibly offer incredible performance when used in the “real world” ? It can’t.

Jerry Busse

 

[mikemck]

Originally posted by JamesA
Even those this thread seems to be winding down, I refuse to go along with the "I'm going to say my piece and then run away" attitude of this post.

Seeing the futility of continuing to post, especially in this thread, is a sure sign of intelligence, if you ask me.

Why would I say it? Because I'm trying to get a straight answer out of you, on why the warranty is the way it is. If your blades can handle abuse, why not warranty them against abuse? Why ISN'T your warranty "Unless you meant to break it, we'll fix it?"

His warranty is the way it is because it's his company, and he can have it any way he wants it. If someone does not like his warranty, for whatever reason, they can buy someone else's knives.

So you won't sell me a knife that I already told you that I didn't want, because I asked why your warranty says what it says?

For those of you who are still reading this thread -- did I unknowingly do something vicious and insulting in order to deserve a sour grapes response like that? Please let me know, so I won't do it again.

It's probably because he had an idea that you were the type of person who would post something like you have here, even after he said in no uncertain terms that he would not be replying to anything else in this thread.

Your post shows a lack of character in my opinion, and if I made knives, I would not sell you one either, based just on what you have said.

Continuing to ask someone questions, calling into question the quality of someones product, casting aspersions on someones integrity, and trying to goad them into replying is low class, at best.

If I were you, I would count myself lucky if ANY maker would sell you a knife after reading your posts in this thread...Ironcically enough, it might very well be customers like you that have made warranties like his a requirement.

If you really wanted answers to those questions, you would have emailed him and politely requested a response.

You asked, so I'm telling you...

 

elkhoundssm,

Now that I have thrown my nickels worth in trying to defend TOPS from all the other stuff, let me give you my opinion on your question. First all, they are well built, heavy duty knives. The quality is excellent and yes even their "warranty" is excellent because you're dealing with an honorable company. Now, as far as what you are wanting a knife for, then I would look heavily at some of the newer designs TOPS is are coming out with. The problem I have had with a lot of TOPS knives is that many of them are too thick and lack the cutting efficiency that I seek in a general knife. JUST MY OPINION without a lot of science to back it up. Everyone likes something different and Brian, Mike Fuller, and I have even discussed this on several occasions (thick vs. thin). Mike does have some new models out that are flat ground and pretty thin and should cut like a maniac. I'm sorry but I can't recall the names of these right now. Are they worth the price? I think so if you're lookign for a solid knife that's well built from a company that will back you up. Can you get cheaper stuff that cuts as good? Sure, no doubt about that. The same as you can get more expensive stuff that will cut about the same when you actually apply it in the field. There are better steels, better grinds, better ideas, etc. but it relates to very little once you start to using it daily in the field. I don't give a damn what all the hype and ads will tell you.

[edit] ::

If that was the case then simple cheap machets would not rule the world like they do. Oh we can make the argument that the reason they do is because of price, BUT I have peronally, on numerous occasions taken high dollar blades to indigenous people. They almost always go back to their machetes because of the cutting efficiency, the ease of sharpening on a rock, the flexibility, the reach, and numerous other reasons. I'm not downing anyone's blades here. Hey, if you make any product and decide on a pirce and folks like it then that's great. That's called Capitalism, BUT I am saying you don't have to spend a ton of money from TOPS or any other company to get a job done...as long as you understand how to do something.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Right on Jeff.

People in this industry have some kind of warped notion that the experiences and opinions of freelance writers should be held to a different standard on the internet, at a trade show or at a hunting camp.

I get asked for my opinion on knives all the time. I rarely refer people solely to my articles and usually just tell them how I feel and what work that opinion is based on and let them make up thier mind.

My opinions are strong and frequently piss off knife companies.
Anyone remember the "Gunting" fiasco? My opinions are also biased based on solid experiences and the experiences of others.

As a freelance writer, I have written for 4 different publishing companies who publish an array of knife and fireams periodicals some under my name, some under a pseudonym. I don't know of any writers except the editors of the knife mags that actually draw a salary from any knife magazine.

If a knife manufacturer disagrees with my PUBLIC Internet opinion, they have the OPTION to discontinue their advertising with practically EVERY knife magazine on the newstands because I have "corrupted" almost all of them! I am sure it is a similar situation for yourself.

I also think that some of the same knife manufacturers should publish their own magazines, write their own articles, and create their own publishing companies. Many of them already do their own "testing", and usually in the course of that testing their knives never fail and always win!!!!! Imagine that? rarely do they share their data, but are always willing to share their results. That way they knife companies would always have a great review with great results.

On the subject of warranties:
A no-BS warranty is a great thing. My favorite warranty is the Dillon precision warranty on their reloading equipment. They make a superior product and support it well. However, it is apparent that their machines are priced at a strong premium (20-50% over the competition)to help pay for this warranty. Also, their equipment is primarily sold FACTORY DIRECT which puts a minimum of 50% more profit margin in the pocket of the manufacturer compared to much of the competition. The consumer needs to decide in many cases what a NO-BS warranty is worth. Is it worth a 10, 20, 30% increase in the price of the knife? Only if they intend to abuse it in my opinion or if they are buying a product from a company with known QC issues.
Dillon publishes their own magzine too, with product reviews. They are always quite positive.

Anyway, a production knife company called Blackjack Knives had the same warranty as Dillon for several years. Lifetime Unconditional No-BS with free resharpening. Many thousands of Blackjacks were sold (and I helped). Rarely did they ever warrant a knife. Not because did they didn't want to but because 90% of their customers never used the knives. Blackjack knives went out of business. What is that warranty worth now???????

By the way, I like Busse knives. I have over $700 dollars worth of them!!! I did not buy them for the Warranty.

 

I agree that we have probably corrupted all the mags

Back to the issue at hand, and I'm sure you will agree with me on this. As far as I'm concerned the absolute best bang for the buck in this whole damn industry is Ethan Becker's knives. Not only are you getting an experienced designer that has been there done that in just about every aspect of the outdoors, but he's probably one of the most honest men I have found in this industry, alongside Mike Fuller (and of course others).

Having said all that, there are certain designs that Becker has out that I personally don't like, while others love them.

When you get ready to separate the bullshit from what actually works in the field then drop by and talk to Ethan. He takes the critical comments as well as the positive ones and strives to create a better product all the time. I have a ton of respect for him from the simple fact that he designed the Figure-8 many years ago for the climbing industry

Another issue that's not addressed with a lot of testing is many times people are comparing apples to oranges. Toughness testing is fine, thick knives are fine, but when it comes to vegetation and slicing it's a different world many times. I'm just saying that most designers usually design knives for specific puropses. That's the reason a 5 dollar machete will kick ass on ANYONE's production blade in the tropical jungles.

 

[Dark Nemesis]

I promise y'all can keep your apples, oranges, and vegetation. It's times we all work together and focus on the primary and most important point of this thread.....Where the heck is that free knife going?

 

[Richard]

I would guess that many (not all) companies put limits on warranties for one reason....protection from idiots.

A company who values its reputation will repair or replace knives on a case by case basis beyond any warranty. However, when you have somebody who gets knives knowing full well that he is going to test them in un-realistic conditions, and knows full well hes going to attempt its destruction and want it replaced, thats just stupid.

A few companies may warranty such things to get one-up on the competition and thats fine, but nobody should be expected to be liable for another persons stupidity.

I have a few knives that I feel would stand up to some pretty heavy use and have used them for stuff that would be considered abuse. I do not however take them out with the sole purpose of seeing where the point of failure is by beating it with pipes, chopping concrete, steel or other things, nor do I apply prying pressure and continue to increase it until it breaks just to see if it will. Even if I did destroy one on purpose, I sure would not expect a company/maker to gimme a free one as a replacement.

Like I mentioned in another thread, most modern pistols have safety devices. They work, but if you point it at yourself and pull the trigger and it gos off, then you are a moron. Nothing, and I mean nothing is 100 percent reliable in every imaginable situation except death and taxes.

Probably the worst thing about these so-called "tests" is that people who dont know any better take what they read a gosphel. Many people have passed on the oppurtunity to own a fine knife based soley on these biased one-sided "reviews" with thinly disguised personal agendas. Slanting reviews based on the fact that a company does not kiss your ass, and portraying the "results" in the worst possible light just to slam a company may not be illegal, but it sure as hell is un-ethical.