Originally posted by Rob Simonich
Whats a swamp rat?
me
what about TOPS?
- Thread starter elkhoundss
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I am not sure how this thread became about Busse or Swamprat knives...
It didn't, those were used as an example of what a good warranty looks like.
There have been insults thrown, all in defense of a favored piece of metal. How absurd. How childish.
Totaly agree. However nobody was insulted on Busse based motives. It was TOPS defenders who started a war and are ready to do it again.
particularly Jeff Randall who you have chosen to villify. Your actions were uncalled for. You have lost respect in my eyes, not that I except that to mean anything to you. Your words are without merit and not based in reality.
After all the personal insults and name calling Jeff did... Does that read ok in your book? Were those insults based on reality and full of merit?
It has been a grim day for the forums.
I personally think, this thread went wrong way once the name calling and personal insults started, and that didn't happen today.
P.S. IMHO <b>if</b> TOPS needs "defence" like that then there's something wrong with them.
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Wow, where to start.
First to address the issue. Are they worth the price? Go and check them out. I have never been really fond of Tops but that just personal taste. Nothing against the company, its just not my style. It may be exactly what you are looking for. While your at it check out Strider, Busse, Livesay and many other custom makers. You will find one that fits your needs and then price won't be an issue. Is one better made than the other. No not really. Dispite what some guys claim with statements of super secret steels, they are all the same. Most are made of the same steels and heat treated in the same ovens. My knives are heat treated in the same ovens as Rinaldi's, Striders, Hossoms, Mayos, Loveless, Bucks and almost every other knifemakers out there. It just comes down to design preferences, thats all.
As for the issue of warrentees. What is a knife meant to do. It is a CUTTING TOOL, no more no less. If you abuse it, the company should not be expected to replace it. That is why God gave you a brain. If you want to pry, buy a prybar. If you want to drive screws buy a screw driver. A knife is not a super tool. It is meant to cut. Why should anyone expect a company to replace a cutting tool that you used to punch through metal, break concrete or the other really stupid things some guys are doing to knives.
As for the my knife is stronger than your knife BS. It is just BS! As with everything in life there is give and take. I could make a knife that would pry better than a Strider or Busse or any other company for that matter. How you say? Simple, make it thicker. But the thicker a blade is the less it will perform its intended purpose. Why should I sacrifice a knifes cutting ability because someone might pry with it. If they pry with a knife and it breaks, thats their problem. I build knives not hammers, not screwdrivers, not crowbars not petons. Knives, thats all. Get out of the Rambo mindset. You can not expect a knife to do every job on the face of the planet. For everything that a knife does other than cut, it means that the knife cuts that much less.
As for Fuller, don't know never met him. But if Trace and Jeff say hes good. Then I will bet everything that he is!
As for Jeff. I have only met him face to face for about 5 seconds. However I have dealt with him quite a bit via e-mail. Jeff made me a promise once. When challanged on that promise by another he stood by his word to me. It could have cost him, it could have cost him alot! But he held his ground. That my friends makes him and his word golden! If he says something is good, I know it is good. If he says something is bad, chances are it is. Flat out, do not challenge this man on his word, you will lose every time. And that I stake my reputation on!
As for TK. Hey, it a business. They made a choice and for good or bad thats what it is. No biggy. Jeffs not all bent out of shape. Do I hold it against them in any way? No. I will continue to read and enjoy it. They just seemed to want something that Jeff was unwilling to give, so they went thier seperate ways. So is life!
As for 1whobuys. BITE ME!
As for Contender. You are intitled to you opinions but BITE ME anyhow.
As for anyone who gets bent out of shape when your favorite knife MIGHT have been insulted. You need to learn something about the knife world. With a rare few exceptions we all get along very nicely. You think that their is some kind of war going on. Its not. Hate to burst your bubble but almost everyone is really likable. I can only think of one maker that I would not enjoy sharing a drink with. Just because we have differant styles and have differant thoughts on what a knife should be does not mean that we are not all friends.
As for Cliff Stamp. I have made no secret that I think his testing is really silly. If I ever have a need to disembowel a cast iron sink, I will take that statement back. You do not need a lab of test equipment to know how a knife performs. Think about it. The Japanese made some of the best swords in history, and not a single microscope around! His posts are sooooo long it is painfull to read them. That being said. If he enjoys what he does, than more power to him. And yes, one of these days I will send him a knife. Why? I would like his feedback. The same as I would like everyones feed back. When I get a knife that is designed for survival then I will send it to Jeff as well. Even if there is only one bit of really usefull feedback it a ten page thesis, heh thats one bit more than I had before.
As for getting bent out of shape at Jeffs opinion. To paraphrase Mick Strider, since when do you need a debate over telling someone to F#$K OFF!
First to address the issue. Are they worth the price? Go and check them out. I have never been really fond of Tops but that just personal taste. Nothing against the company, its just not my style. It may be exactly what you are looking for. While your at it check out Strider, Busse, Livesay and many other custom makers. You will find one that fits your needs and then price won't be an issue. Is one better made than the other. No not really. Dispite what some guys claim with statements of super secret steels, they are all the same. Most are made of the same steels and heat treated in the same ovens. My knives are heat treated in the same ovens as Rinaldi's, Striders, Hossoms, Mayos, Loveless, Bucks and almost every other knifemakers out there. It just comes down to design preferences, thats all.
As for the issue of warrentees. What is a knife meant to do. It is a CUTTING TOOL, no more no less. If you abuse it, the company should not be expected to replace it. That is why God gave you a brain. If you want to pry, buy a prybar. If you want to drive screws buy a screw driver. A knife is not a super tool. It is meant to cut. Why should anyone expect a company to replace a cutting tool that you used to punch through metal, break concrete or the other really stupid things some guys are doing to knives.
As for the my knife is stronger than your knife BS. It is just BS! As with everything in life there is give and take. I could make a knife that would pry better than a Strider or Busse or any other company for that matter. How you say? Simple, make it thicker. But the thicker a blade is the less it will perform its intended purpose. Why should I sacrifice a knifes cutting ability because someone might pry with it. If they pry with a knife and it breaks, thats their problem. I build knives not hammers, not screwdrivers, not crowbars not petons. Knives, thats all. Get out of the Rambo mindset. You can not expect a knife to do every job on the face of the planet. For everything that a knife does other than cut, it means that the knife cuts that much less.
As for Fuller, don't know never met him. But if Trace and Jeff say hes good. Then I will bet everything that he is!
As for Jeff. I have only met him face to face for about 5 seconds. However I have dealt with him quite a bit via e-mail. Jeff made me a promise once. When challanged on that promise by another he stood by his word to me. It could have cost him, it could have cost him alot! But he held his ground. That my friends makes him and his word golden! If he says something is good, I know it is good. If he says something is bad, chances are it is. Flat out, do not challenge this man on his word, you will lose every time. And that I stake my reputation on!
As for TK. Hey, it a business. They made a choice and for good or bad thats what it is. No biggy. Jeffs not all bent out of shape. Do I hold it against them in any way? No. I will continue to read and enjoy it. They just seemed to want something that Jeff was unwilling to give, so they went thier seperate ways. So is life!
As for 1whobuys. BITE ME!
As for Contender. You are intitled to you opinions but BITE ME anyhow.
As for anyone who gets bent out of shape when your favorite knife MIGHT have been insulted. You need to learn something about the knife world. With a rare few exceptions we all get along very nicely. You think that their is some kind of war going on. Its not. Hate to burst your bubble but almost everyone is really likable. I can only think of one maker that I would not enjoy sharing a drink with. Just because we have differant styles and have differant thoughts on what a knife should be does not mean that we are not all friends.
As for Cliff Stamp. I have made no secret that I think his testing is really silly. If I ever have a need to disembowel a cast iron sink, I will take that statement back. You do not need a lab of test equipment to know how a knife performs. Think about it. The Japanese made some of the best swords in history, and not a single microscope around! His posts are sooooo long it is painfull to read them. That being said. If he enjoys what he does, than more power to him. And yes, one of these days I will send him a knife. Why? I would like his feedback. The same as I would like everyones feed back. When I get a knife that is designed for survival then I will send it to Jeff as well. Even if there is only one bit of really usefull feedback it a ten page thesis, heh thats one bit more than I had before.
As for getting bent out of shape at Jeffs opinion. To paraphrase Mick Strider, since when do you need a debate over telling someone to F#$K OFF!
Not to harp on TOPSs warranty, and the warranties topic in general, but I have more to say on the subject:
If I am buying a high-end, bet-your-life-on-it knife for the outdoors, I will not accept anything less than an unconditional lifetime warranty when there are companies that are offering them truly. I dont go out into the wilderness with the intent to try my best to destroy my knife any way that I can--I intend to use my knife for relatively ordinary camp chores. However, I also have it with me as insurance, as a tool of last resort to get me through desperate situations of any kind. I dont head out with the plan in mind to cut through crashed cars to free trapped people, but I want my knife to be up to the task, should I need it to be. I dont plan on driving my knife into rock to use as a climbing aid, or digging with it to build a firebed to prevent hypothermia, but I need a knife that wont fail when called on for these extenuating duties. Perhaps its foolish to regularly use a knife as a hammer, prybar, bolt-cutter, shovel, piton, etc., when cheaper and more effective tools specifically designed for the purpose are available. But when theyre not, and I need a tool to use that way to save my life, you bet Ill try to accomplish the task at hand with the tool at hand--my knife. When I head into the wilderness with just what I can carry, I am severely restricted as to what and how much can come with me. I cant carry one of each item I might possibly need in an emergency, so I carry just a few special tools, one of which is a super-tough knife that damned-well better get me through, performing out-of-the-ordinary knife tasks. Knife failure is not an option if Im in a real emergency.
Sure, knives arent designed to be hammers, shovels, prybars, pitons, roasting skewers, bolt-cutters, axes, and so on. Theyll perform less efficiently than a tool designed solely for any of those tasks. But thats not to say that knives are not designed to SURVIVE that kind of use. Some are, and some arent.
So, how am I supposed to tell which are truly designed for extenuating use, and which arent? I can look at the knife in a store (sometimes I can only look on screen), but that doesnt tell the whole story. Often, it comes down to (at least in part) going by what the company says. If a company says that hammering on the knifes spine while using it as a wedge is considered abuse, then I will take that to mean that the knife is NOT designed to withstand that kind of use. If the company says unhesitatingly that doing so is not abuse, then I will take that to mean that the knife IS designed to withstand that kind of use.
And one of the chief areas to look in order to find out what a manufacturer believes the knife is designed to handle is in the companys warranty. A warranty is where a manufacturer puts his/her money where his/her mouth is, because meeting warranty obligations costs a manufacturer money when the knives fail to perform as warranted, but doesnt cost the manufacturer money when the knives perform as warranted. It shows what use parameters a manufacturer is so confident about that they are willing to morally and legally bind themselves to their knives ability to handle such use. The warranty is, among other things, a manufacturers bottom-line, straight-answer, final statement of what the knife is designed to withstand and what it is not.
Thus, when I say that I will only buy a high-end, bet-your-life-on-it knife for the outdoors if it comes with an unconditional lifetime warranty, I say so primarily because the manufacturer is ultimately saying, by means of the full-coverage warranty, that the knife is designed to survive my possible extenuating needs. Im not demanding an unconditional lifetime warranty out of a concern that my knife should be refunded or replaced if it breaks, though that is also good to know. That concern takes a distant second to my concern that my tool of last resort should be up to the task.
Of course, not every knife is meant to be a bet-your-life-on-it survival knife which can withstand anything, nor should every knife be. For example, I want my kitchen knives designed for maximum cutting efficiency over maximum impact resistance. For a knife that Im not intending to use as a bet-your-life-on-it tool of last resort, I wont rule out a knife with a limited warranty.
Newt Livesay said: ...warranties are a manufactures way of protecting our selves from the very few people who are dishonest, and in general terms are stupid crooked people trying to screw someone out of something for nothing. While I would like to further discuss the wisdom of this attitude with Newt (I wont try here, since he said that hes left the thread), I can basically accept validity in this position. But the wording of a warranty still matters a lot.
If a manufacturer says that a knifes warranty covers cutting only, and that the knife is not covered for prying use, nor warranted against impact, I can accept that. If a manufacterer limits coverage so strictly as to cover only manufacturing defects, and not use of any kind, I still think thats perfectly reasonable. Ill know where I stand with that manufacturers knives, and I can determine whether the value is worth it to me, relative to the cost. I wont automatically exclude a knife with a very limited warranty, if the designed use appears to be in accordance with my intended use, and the value is fair in relation to the cost.
But there is a distinctly separate way to warranty a knife which immediately sets off my alarms. The way which sets off my alarms is to include a clause which overrides everything else, and gives the manufacturer the option to arbitrarily refuse warranty obligations at whim. Here are two examples of such clauses:
Tops: The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse."
Newt Livesay: "We will not warranty any knife that in our opinion has been abused, there are no exceptions."
I dont know Mr. Livesay, nor Mr. Fuller. I have never handled their products, nor dealt with their company, nor met anyone who has (that I knew about). So, please dont take what i am about to say as casting aspersions. I am simply calling it like I see it....
I call those kind of clauses weasel clauses, because they appear (to me) to be designed for the sole purpose of safeguarding the manufacturers option to weasel out of warranty obligations. Those clauses arent necessary for protecting the manufacturer from stupid crooked people trying to screw someone out of something for nothing--that could be handled fully with a regular limited clause, such as This knife is warranted only against manufacturing defects and damage from cutting; it is not warranted against chipping or fracturing or bending as the result of impact or torque.
When I see that kind of clause in a warranty, it sets off my alarm because it looks... dishonorable. It looks to me like a company went out of its way to purposely and unnecessarily add a clause which would enable it to capriciously renege on its obligations. I just dont see any valid excuse for sticking in a clause which retains a manufacturers power of arbitrary warranty refusal for undefined reasons. That is NOT the same as simply a limited or conditional warranty. Its not a neutral thing. If a manufacturer intends to provide a better warranty than that, then the clause shouldnt be in there.
Jeff Randall said: Maybe we do things a little differently where I come from but I have always taken a man on his word until he screws me.
Jeff, Im taking Mr. Fuller at his word. I trust that he means it when he says that he reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered fair use and what is considered abuse. Those are his words, not mine. Nobody made him say it. I dont know him or his products or his company, but I do know that, when he gave his word to his customers on public record, he felt it necessary to add a clause to take back his word at whim for unspecified reasons. You say that Mr. Mike Fuller is a man of honor. You may be right, and I'm not saying he isn't, but I must take into account what I see. Those words in his warranty are (as best I can tell) dishonorable, and thereby dishonor him. If hes a better man than that, I think he should take them out.
I can only go by what I see. Those words arent to be disregarded. Theyre there. Theyre no accident. He, or someone else with his informed consent, put them in there. And they seem to me to only serve one purpose. And its an ugly one.
--Mike
If I am buying a high-end, bet-your-life-on-it knife for the outdoors, I will not accept anything less than an unconditional lifetime warranty when there are companies that are offering them truly. I dont go out into the wilderness with the intent to try my best to destroy my knife any way that I can--I intend to use my knife for relatively ordinary camp chores. However, I also have it with me as insurance, as a tool of last resort to get me through desperate situations of any kind. I dont head out with the plan in mind to cut through crashed cars to free trapped people, but I want my knife to be up to the task, should I need it to be. I dont plan on driving my knife into rock to use as a climbing aid, or digging with it to build a firebed to prevent hypothermia, but I need a knife that wont fail when called on for these extenuating duties. Perhaps its foolish to regularly use a knife as a hammer, prybar, bolt-cutter, shovel, piton, etc., when cheaper and more effective tools specifically designed for the purpose are available. But when theyre not, and I need a tool to use that way to save my life, you bet Ill try to accomplish the task at hand with the tool at hand--my knife. When I head into the wilderness with just what I can carry, I am severely restricted as to what and how much can come with me. I cant carry one of each item I might possibly need in an emergency, so I carry just a few special tools, one of which is a super-tough knife that damned-well better get me through, performing out-of-the-ordinary knife tasks. Knife failure is not an option if Im in a real emergency.
Sure, knives arent designed to be hammers, shovels, prybars, pitons, roasting skewers, bolt-cutters, axes, and so on. Theyll perform less efficiently than a tool designed solely for any of those tasks. But thats not to say that knives are not designed to SURVIVE that kind of use. Some are, and some arent.
So, how am I supposed to tell which are truly designed for extenuating use, and which arent? I can look at the knife in a store (sometimes I can only look on screen), but that doesnt tell the whole story. Often, it comes down to (at least in part) going by what the company says. If a company says that hammering on the knifes spine while using it as a wedge is considered abuse, then I will take that to mean that the knife is NOT designed to withstand that kind of use. If the company says unhesitatingly that doing so is not abuse, then I will take that to mean that the knife IS designed to withstand that kind of use.
And one of the chief areas to look in order to find out what a manufacturer believes the knife is designed to handle is in the companys warranty. A warranty is where a manufacturer puts his/her money where his/her mouth is, because meeting warranty obligations costs a manufacturer money when the knives fail to perform as warranted, but doesnt cost the manufacturer money when the knives perform as warranted. It shows what use parameters a manufacturer is so confident about that they are willing to morally and legally bind themselves to their knives ability to handle such use. The warranty is, among other things, a manufacturers bottom-line, straight-answer, final statement of what the knife is designed to withstand and what it is not.
Thus, when I say that I will only buy a high-end, bet-your-life-on-it knife for the outdoors if it comes with an unconditional lifetime warranty, I say so primarily because the manufacturer is ultimately saying, by means of the full-coverage warranty, that the knife is designed to survive my possible extenuating needs. Im not demanding an unconditional lifetime warranty out of a concern that my knife should be refunded or replaced if it breaks, though that is also good to know. That concern takes a distant second to my concern that my tool of last resort should be up to the task.
Of course, not every knife is meant to be a bet-your-life-on-it survival knife which can withstand anything, nor should every knife be. For example, I want my kitchen knives designed for maximum cutting efficiency over maximum impact resistance. For a knife that Im not intending to use as a bet-your-life-on-it tool of last resort, I wont rule out a knife with a limited warranty.
Newt Livesay said: ...warranties are a manufactures way of protecting our selves from the very few people who are dishonest, and in general terms are stupid crooked people trying to screw someone out of something for nothing. While I would like to further discuss the wisdom of this attitude with Newt (I wont try here, since he said that hes left the thread), I can basically accept validity in this position. But the wording of a warranty still matters a lot.
If a manufacturer says that a knifes warranty covers cutting only, and that the knife is not covered for prying use, nor warranted against impact, I can accept that. If a manufacterer limits coverage so strictly as to cover only manufacturing defects, and not use of any kind, I still think thats perfectly reasonable. Ill know where I stand with that manufacturers knives, and I can determine whether the value is worth it to me, relative to the cost. I wont automatically exclude a knife with a very limited warranty, if the designed use appears to be in accordance with my intended use, and the value is fair in relation to the cost.
But there is a distinctly separate way to warranty a knife which immediately sets off my alarms. The way which sets off my alarms is to include a clause which overrides everything else, and gives the manufacturer the option to arbitrarily refuse warranty obligations at whim. Here are two examples of such clauses:
Tops: The Company reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered "fair use" or abuse."
Newt Livesay: "We will not warranty any knife that in our opinion has been abused, there are no exceptions."
I dont know Mr. Livesay, nor Mr. Fuller. I have never handled their products, nor dealt with their company, nor met anyone who has (that I knew about). So, please dont take what i am about to say as casting aspersions. I am simply calling it like I see it....
I call those kind of clauses weasel clauses, because they appear (to me) to be designed for the sole purpose of safeguarding the manufacturers option to weasel out of warranty obligations. Those clauses arent necessary for protecting the manufacturer from stupid crooked people trying to screw someone out of something for nothing--that could be handled fully with a regular limited clause, such as This knife is warranted only against manufacturing defects and damage from cutting; it is not warranted against chipping or fracturing or bending as the result of impact or torque.
When I see that kind of clause in a warranty, it sets off my alarm because it looks... dishonorable. It looks to me like a company went out of its way to purposely and unnecessarily add a clause which would enable it to capriciously renege on its obligations. I just dont see any valid excuse for sticking in a clause which retains a manufacturers power of arbitrary warranty refusal for undefined reasons. That is NOT the same as simply a limited or conditional warranty. Its not a neutral thing. If a manufacturer intends to provide a better warranty than that, then the clause shouldnt be in there.
Jeff Randall said: Maybe we do things a little differently where I come from but I have always taken a man on his word until he screws me.
Jeff, Im taking Mr. Fuller at his word. I trust that he means it when he says that he reserves the right to make the final decision as to what is considered fair use and what is considered abuse. Those are his words, not mine. Nobody made him say it. I dont know him or his products or his company, but I do know that, when he gave his word to his customers on public record, he felt it necessary to add a clause to take back his word at whim for unspecified reasons. You say that Mr. Mike Fuller is a man of honor. You may be right, and I'm not saying he isn't, but I must take into account what I see. Those words in his warranty are (as best I can tell) dishonorable, and thereby dishonor him. If hes a better man than that, I think he should take them out.
I can only go by what I see. Those words arent to be disregarded. Theyre there. Theyre no accident. He, or someone else with his informed consent, put them in there. And they seem to me to only serve one purpose. And its an ugly one.
--Mike
That's the feeling I got when Busse, Swamp Rat, and other knives were injected into a thread that was solely about TOPS.
Of course we all know they're the best knives in the industry, so why so much defense for them on this TOPS thread?
Gator, the complete sentence, in context was: "No one in this thread ever wrote anything but complimentary words about Busse knives, particularly Jeff Randall who you have chosen to villify. Your actions were uncalled for. You have lost respect in my eyes, not that I except that to mean anything to you. Your words are without merit and not based in reality."
I never brought Busse into this. I called Cliff a fuc*king idiot and still stand on those words and will do it again because he is. They WERE based on reality due to Cliff's outright lying about the Anaconda, and they DID have merit from the simple fact he was the one who jumped in and lied. Typical for Stamp. Was that childish to do this to Clif? You bet but I think of him as a non-person in this industry so I will use every tactic I want in defense of his lies and flawed science. I have a personal bitch against him. However, try to find anywhere on this thread that I jumped on Busse, Swamp Rat, or any other maker. I treated them with respect and always have.
If you want to base your argument on integrity then don't take sentences out of context and argue on the merit of the words typed. I am not denying I flamed Cliffy's ass on here. I don't like him and he's uses inuendo and deceitful tactics to hurt other folks.
Evolute, I'm glad you take Mike on the words on his web site. Read all those words and you will be buying TOPS for sure.
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I have to agree with R.W. Clark generally, and specifically aboutOnewhobuys-You are way out of line, partner
Evolute-You are quite strident in your denunciations of Mike Fuller, going as far as calling him dishonest in his warranty(weasel clause.)
I don't believe that you have a clue as to the nature of an honest man. Are you an attorney by chance? At the risk of beating a dead horse-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. STUPID! Individuals and companies recognise that errors occur. That is inevitable. The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the way that problems are handled. You make it sound as if the warantee was written to cheat people when they have a legitimate problem. I suspect that records would show that much more is normally done in the name of customer service than is strictly required by law.
Evolute-You are quite strident in your denunciations of Mike Fuller, going as far as calling him dishonest in his warranty(weasel clause.)
I don't believe that you have a clue as to the nature of an honest man. Are you an attorney by chance? At the risk of beating a dead horse-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. STUPID! Individuals and companies recognise that errors occur. That is inevitable. The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the way that problems are handled. You make it sound as if the warantee was written to cheat people when they have a legitimate problem. I suspect that records would show that much more is normally done in the name of customer service than is strictly required by law.
Cliff Stamp
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Jeff :
[raising the RC]
It would indeed probably cost more to increase the RC, mainly because you would need a tighter QC both on the materials and the heat treat. If you are aiming for 45-50 RC you obviously have a lot of slack in where you end up. If however you want to get a blade around 57 RC, then overshooting to 60-62 would not be a good thing so you can't allow the same variance. However, the vast majority of people on these forums are not from third world countries, and can afford a more expensive knife, the same way that they can afford other aspects of higher quality gear. Thus discussions will tend to go more along the lines of what kind of increased performance can I get if I am willing to spend the money and how do I figure out which way to go depending on the performance I want.
As for my skills, when you start saying why someone should listen to you because of who you are instead of the strength of your argument (or not to someone else for the same reason) is a sure sign of evidence that you argument can't be supported by facts or logic. This personal line of commentary is done simply because you can't make a solid arguement, and has the goal of either to influence people, and can succeed if you have a strong enough name, or to simply cloud the issue by bringing up something that will cause people to lose track of the actual issue being discussed, which doesn't take much beyond the willingness to say whatever it takes. The latter was the case here as you can see how many posts don't deal with the original argument which is quite simple - the TOPS written warrenty is much weaker than for example the Busse or HI one, and that TOPS doesn't have much of an argument to claim a superior warrenty.
However since it was brought up, as for your natives, I have no doubt that they are very skilled. I have friends in Malaysia who grew up doing knife work as a necessary part of their every day life and are quite skilled which you would expect. I was hoping to get down there this summer, but got too busy, hopefully next year. I am interested in traditional blade designs, and how they are influenced by the vegetation. However, you don't need to go to the other side of the world, I can name several people in my extended family that are better at various aspects of blade work than I am. I would rate myself as good with an axe and large blade where I live, but that is only because no one does it around here anymore. One generation ago I would probably just be average. My axe work has come a lot way in the past year though. My power is fine, but my precision still needs a lot of work, I only run clean lines about half the time and thus I am doing about twice as much work as I need to be doing. By this fall I would like to have this to 75% or more which is roughly where my large blade work is presently.
As for my "lies" about the Anaconada, I commented as to what I read on the forum and specifically referenced what I said. I never read anything public about a replacement. If this was indeed stated publically, and it was also clearly stated that this use could in fact expected to be covered by the warrenty then it obviously isn't a suitable example of a failing with the warrenty as I noted in the above.
To those who have commented on the TK issue, as Chad noted, I am very strongly pro free speech, and this can't just cover the things you agree with. To those that would complain about TK "supporting" Randall because he works for them, I would argue that this would only be valid if he brought that relationship into his argument implying or clearly stating that TK supported him to lend strengths to his claims, I don't recall this ever being the case. TK has no business in controlling what he says on any matter, knife related or otherwise as long as it is clear that his opinion isn't representing the magazine. Their only issue with him should be can he write articles on knives that are to the standard they require. This is an issue of much debate though, and is often referenced on professional athletes. It doesn't really have much place here, and I stated my side only because I was the subject of the commentary, and some of the above posts are defensive in nature - which while I appreciate, I would rather you just stick to talking about knives and ignore the personal comments.
And to those who have commented about Fuller, Mike could have the warrenty wrote the way it was simply because someone advised him to the same as any other business practice. While it may not inspire you with confidence, that is pretty much all you can draw from it.
-Cliff
[raising the RC]
It would indeed probably cost more to increase the RC, mainly because you would need a tighter QC both on the materials and the heat treat. If you are aiming for 45-50 RC you obviously have a lot of slack in where you end up. If however you want to get a blade around 57 RC, then overshooting to 60-62 would not be a good thing so you can't allow the same variance. However, the vast majority of people on these forums are not from third world countries, and can afford a more expensive knife, the same way that they can afford other aspects of higher quality gear. Thus discussions will tend to go more along the lines of what kind of increased performance can I get if I am willing to spend the money and how do I figure out which way to go depending on the performance I want.
As for my skills, when you start saying why someone should listen to you because of who you are instead of the strength of your argument (or not to someone else for the same reason) is a sure sign of evidence that you argument can't be supported by facts or logic. This personal line of commentary is done simply because you can't make a solid arguement, and has the goal of either to influence people, and can succeed if you have a strong enough name, or to simply cloud the issue by bringing up something that will cause people to lose track of the actual issue being discussed, which doesn't take much beyond the willingness to say whatever it takes. The latter was the case here as you can see how many posts don't deal with the original argument which is quite simple - the TOPS written warrenty is much weaker than for example the Busse or HI one, and that TOPS doesn't have much of an argument to claim a superior warrenty.
However since it was brought up, as for your natives, I have no doubt that they are very skilled. I have friends in Malaysia who grew up doing knife work as a necessary part of their every day life and are quite skilled which you would expect. I was hoping to get down there this summer, but got too busy, hopefully next year. I am interested in traditional blade designs, and how they are influenced by the vegetation. However, you don't need to go to the other side of the world, I can name several people in my extended family that are better at various aspects of blade work than I am. I would rate myself as good with an axe and large blade where I live, but that is only because no one does it around here anymore. One generation ago I would probably just be average. My axe work has come a lot way in the past year though. My power is fine, but my precision still needs a lot of work, I only run clean lines about half the time and thus I am doing about twice as much work as I need to be doing. By this fall I would like to have this to 75% or more which is roughly where my large blade work is presently.
As for my "lies" about the Anaconada, I commented as to what I read on the forum and specifically referenced what I said. I never read anything public about a replacement. If this was indeed stated publically, and it was also clearly stated that this use could in fact expected to be covered by the warrenty then it obviously isn't a suitable example of a failing with the warrenty as I noted in the above.
To those who have commented on the TK issue, as Chad noted, I am very strongly pro free speech, and this can't just cover the things you agree with. To those that would complain about TK "supporting" Randall because he works for them, I would argue that this would only be valid if he brought that relationship into his argument implying or clearly stating that TK supported him to lend strengths to his claims, I don't recall this ever being the case. TK has no business in controlling what he says on any matter, knife related or otherwise as long as it is clear that his opinion isn't representing the magazine. Their only issue with him should be can he write articles on knives that are to the standard they require. This is an issue of much debate though, and is often referenced on professional athletes. It doesn't really have much place here, and I stated my side only because I was the subject of the commentary, and some of the above posts are defensive in nature - which while I appreciate, I would rather you just stick to talking about knives and ignore the personal comments.
And to those who have commented about Fuller, Mike could have the warrenty wrote the way it was simply because someone advised him to the same as any other business practice. While it may not inspire you with confidence, that is pretty much all you can draw from it.
-Cliff
Brian Jones
Moderator
- Joined
- Jan 17, 1999
- Messages
- 7,560
Mike/evolute,
Your post was nice to read, believe it or not, because you were very professional in expressing your viewpoint. The problem with any written thing, warranty or other, is that it stands there on its own, and is open to many interpretations. The interpretations say more about the way the interpreter thinks than than the warranty or the men behind the warranty.
Small men might hide behind a warranty, but you've heard numerous times about how Mike Fuller does not -- he makes good or better on everything for his customers, plain and simple. So, just letting you know in a friendly way that your interpretation is way off -- and no disrespect meant to you in saying so.
Jerry, still waiting to see if you are gonna put up or shut up -- you're the one who suggested the trade show format, thinking I'd cut and run. Where are ya pal? Was that all just hype and chest puffing on the forum or did you mean it? I'm ready to do everything you need, to help you back up your statements...
1whobuys....you're a very "brave" anonymous keyboard kommando <snicker>...when you come out from hiding and want to contribute some substance, let us know. Until then you are taking up bandwidth on a thread that, although combative and nasty, is actually damn good hardcore discussion. Let us know if you ever become "one who actually uses..."
Jeff, count yourself in for those tests, my friend.
Gator, when the swamp rat crew can start learning to be professionals, and simply talk about the merits of their own product instead of trying to mislead and distract everyone by focusing on someone else's warranty, then maybe I'll begin to listen to them a little. But they do NOTHING on this thread to back up their products, just focus on tearing down a competitor. I have nothing but nice things to say about the Busse's in my collection.
But me thinks of an old saying: "They wouldn't be talking so much sh*t if they weren't afraid of getting their a$$es kicked." So, really, all this focus on TOPS is a great compliment. SOMEONE is really afraid of them and their excellent products...guess ol' Mike Fuller is doing great stuff in the knife biz, eh? I personally know he is.
~B.
Your post was nice to read, believe it or not, because you were very professional in expressing your viewpoint. The problem with any written thing, warranty or other, is that it stands there on its own, and is open to many interpretations. The interpretations say more about the way the interpreter thinks than than the warranty or the men behind the warranty.
Small men might hide behind a warranty, but you've heard numerous times about how Mike Fuller does not -- he makes good or better on everything for his customers, plain and simple. So, just letting you know in a friendly way that your interpretation is way off -- and no disrespect meant to you in saying so.
Jerry, still waiting to see if you are gonna put up or shut up -- you're the one who suggested the trade show format, thinking I'd cut and run. Where are ya pal? Was that all just hype and chest puffing on the forum or did you mean it? I'm ready to do everything you need, to help you back up your statements...
1whobuys....you're a very "brave" anonymous keyboard kommando <snicker>...when you come out from hiding and want to contribute some substance, let us know. Until then you are taking up bandwidth on a thread that, although combative and nasty, is actually damn good hardcore discussion. Let us know if you ever become "one who actually uses..."
Jeff, count yourself in for those tests, my friend.
Gator, when the swamp rat crew can start learning to be professionals, and simply talk about the merits of their own product instead of trying to mislead and distract everyone by focusing on someone else's warranty, then maybe I'll begin to listen to them a little. But they do NOTHING on this thread to back up their products, just focus on tearing down a competitor. I have nothing but nice things to say about the Busse's in my collection.
But me thinks of an old saying: "They wouldn't be talking so much sh*t if they weren't afraid of getting their a$$es kicked." So, really, all this focus on TOPS is a great compliment. SOMEONE is really afraid of them and their excellent products...guess ol' Mike Fuller is doing great stuff in the knife biz, eh? I personally know he is.
~B.
Off topic, but in regards to Machete hardness:
I am a proponent of raising the hardness level of machete, the results are improved durablity on harder woods, where the softer machetes often get rolls in the edges. In addition, as Cliff noted, a harder knifde will allow for a more acute edge profile. I am not worried about hitting rocks, I am tall (about 6'4") so that unless a machete is real, real long, I am stooping way low, or the rock is real high it just isn't a big deal. IF you're talking about small rocks that are inclusions (say sticking to tree bark) I'll live with the localized damage it causes in exchange for the performance gains.
Gator:
I agree that Busse knives have an awesome warranty from the consumers point of view, it is one of the reasons I buy his products, and will be buying Swamprats. The same holds true for HI. From their lawyer's point of view I am sure it is a nightmare.
A warranty is simply a special kind of promise. It warrants that a product which is made or sold will perform in a certain way. If the product does not perform as it was warranted to, the person making the warranty is held strictly liable for the damage to the product AND any consequential damages that proximately flow from the breach. Strict liabilty is liabilty without regard to fault, even if the manufacturer used all due care in making the product they are still liable for damages.( for the sale of goods under the UCC aticle 2 ,I believe sec. 2-307, a warrantly of merchantability is implied by the sale.)
Making qualification and limitations is a smart thing for a company to do, it may not inspire confidence in the consumer, but it does lower the price point at which the product will be sold. Knives that are replaced under warranty, law suits, added insurance premiums, etc are all built into the price structure of the knife.
I would also like to add a public apology to Eric Issacson, my "coward" comment was certainly not directed at him nor did I mean for it to be interpreted that way. Eric has always been an honarable man.
Take care,
Chad
I am a proponent of raising the hardness level of machete, the results are improved durablity on harder woods, where the softer machetes often get rolls in the edges. In addition, as Cliff noted, a harder knifde will allow for a more acute edge profile. I am not worried about hitting rocks, I am tall (about 6'4") so that unless a machete is real, real long, I am stooping way low, or the rock is real high it just isn't a big deal. IF you're talking about small rocks that are inclusions (say sticking to tree bark) I'll live with the localized damage it causes in exchange for the performance gains.
Gator:
I agree that Busse knives have an awesome warranty from the consumers point of view, it is one of the reasons I buy his products, and will be buying Swamprats. The same holds true for HI. From their lawyer's point of view I am sure it is a nightmare.
A warranty is simply a special kind of promise. It warrants that a product which is made or sold will perform in a certain way. If the product does not perform as it was warranted to, the person making the warranty is held strictly liable for the damage to the product AND any consequential damages that proximately flow from the breach. Strict liabilty is liabilty without regard to fault, even if the manufacturer used all due care in making the product they are still liable for damages.( for the sale of goods under the UCC aticle 2 ,I believe sec. 2-307, a warrantly of merchantability is implied by the sale.)
Making qualification and limitations is a smart thing for a company to do, it may not inspire confidence in the consumer, but it does lower the price point at which the product will be sold. Knives that are replaced under warranty, law suits, added insurance premiums, etc are all built into the price structure of the knife.
I would also like to add a public apology to Eric Issacson, my "coward" comment was certainly not directed at him nor did I mean for it to be interpreted that way. Eric has always been an honarable man.
Take care,
Chad
Cliff, when you get finished with your studies lets you and I get together and test some knives for an extended period of time in the wilderness. Put me in the dirt and I can assure you I can support ALL of my arguments on your claims. If I can't then you will have the "proof" through video or whatever means you desire to prove it. We'll meet somewhere in between...say around Idaho? Using a Busse line.... this is a call for you to put up or shut up when it comes to the wilderness arena. You keep avoiding it. I have no problem with you discussing issues that you know, but it's obvious you have never put blades through extensive testing in real world environments where you had no control over the enironment and couldn't just quit when you got tired, go in the house, and rest. Big difference friend, especially when a blade is your means for surviving during an extended period of time.
Now, on to the TK part of your argument. For once on this thread you and I are in complete agreement. In fact when I found out you submitted an article to TK I encouraged Steve to run your article and let the readership decide whether it had merit. Hopefully Steve will eventually run the article.
Now, on to the TK part of your argument. For once on this thread you and I are in complete agreement. In fact when I found out you submitted an article to TK I encouraged Steve to run your article and let the readership decide whether it had merit. Hopefully Steve will eventually run the article.
Evolute:
Thank you. You've managed to express my thoughts far more effectively than I could have. It's a crying shame that you're getting insulted and parts of what you wrote are getting misinterpreted, twisted around. Seems to happen a lot in this thread (on both sides of the arguments that're floating around), whenever you say things that people aren't up to debating.
JamesA
Thank you. You've managed to express my thoughts far more effectively than I could have. It's a crying shame that you're getting insulted and parts of what you wrote are getting misinterpreted, twisted around. Seems to happen a lot in this thread (on both sides of the arguments that're floating around), whenever you say things that people aren't up to debating.
JamesA
- Joined
- Mar 20, 1999
- Messages
- 7,497
Wow! Good thing I got on and checked we were the tenth thread down from the top, couldn't let that happen.
Alright let the pissing match resume. Remember the higher you piss the more chance you run of hitting the ceiling, then everyone gets wet.
Then again some of you may like golden showers I just don't know.....
Alright let the pissing match resume. Remember the higher you piss the more chance you run of hitting the ceiling, then everyone gets wet.
Then again some of you may like golden showers I just don't know.....
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Jeff, I have not avoided your line of argument that you are more experienced that I am in tropical enviroments, in fact I don't doubt that in most aspects or outdoor living you would do better than I would. For example I have not spent much time lighting fires in extreme conditions - raining, and has been for some time, no brought along tinder, and no source of extended flame like windproof lighter. I keep meaning to look at such things in detail and work out for example how to prepare the tinder to dry it out, I have some ideas, but have never put them into practice yet.
It comes down to time constraints mainly. Right now I get about 20-30 free hours a week, which I can use for bladework, or exploring other issues such as the above, as well as things like the quickest way to connect shelter material to get a high stability quickly without any cordage or anything else except what you would find naturally (and lots of other things like animal tracking etc.) . I will eventually get around to this, as I do put a value on it. But I simply don't understand blade geometry and steel properties as well as I would like yet, so I will concentrate on them until I do.
As for "field use", the vast majority of what I do with knives is outside. It is indeed near my home, but I live in a very rural community. I can walk 15 minutes from where I live, or a couple of hundred miles inland and be in the exact same enviroment. You are correct though above mental issues, it is very different to experiment building a shelter when you are calm and relaxed, than when you need to right now or the consequences will be dramatic - I made the same argument in the above.
None of this however has anything to do with issues of blade design or function, or methods in general. Techniques (you would hope) would be readily adapted for better tools, knives or otherwise. Otherwise it would be impossible to teach someone without putting them in an actual life or death survival situation, which would not be sensible for obvious reasons (they might not have what it takes).
No one is making an arguement that equipment can eliminate the need for experience, in fact I have commented many times that there is value in knowing how to work with low end tools, even if you can afford better ones. The argument is simply that better tools do give an advantage, and this advantage can in fact be many to one with the right tools.
-Cliff
It comes down to time constraints mainly. Right now I get about 20-30 free hours a week, which I can use for bladework, or exploring other issues such as the above, as well as things like the quickest way to connect shelter material to get a high stability quickly without any cordage or anything else except what you would find naturally (and lots of other things like animal tracking etc.) . I will eventually get around to this, as I do put a value on it. But I simply don't understand blade geometry and steel properties as well as I would like yet, so I will concentrate on them until I do.
As for "field use", the vast majority of what I do with knives is outside. It is indeed near my home, but I live in a very rural community. I can walk 15 minutes from where I live, or a couple of hundred miles inland and be in the exact same enviroment. You are correct though above mental issues, it is very different to experiment building a shelter when you are calm and relaxed, than when you need to right now or the consequences will be dramatic - I made the same argument in the above.
None of this however has anything to do with issues of blade design or function, or methods in general. Techniques (you would hope) would be readily adapted for better tools, knives or otherwise. Otherwise it would be impossible to teach someone without putting them in an actual life or death survival situation, which would not be sensible for obvious reasons (they might not have what it takes).
No one is making an arguement that equipment can eliminate the need for experience, in fact I have commented many times that there is value in knowing how to work with low end tools, even if you can afford better ones. The argument is simply that better tools do give an advantage, and this advantage can in fact be many to one with the right tools.
-Cliff
Gator
When I was younger there were a man in the neighborhood had two German shepards, one named Whitey (who was very white, almost albino) and Bernie (who was big and dark). The fastest way to the pond where we used to catch turtles was through his property.
Now Whitey would start chasing you as soon as you got near the property, but if you threw a garbage bag, or your little brother's jacket he would stop and tear that to shreds. By the time he began the chase again, we were long gone.
Bernie on the other hand, would wait, and if you came close to the house, your ass was his. You couldn't outrun him, so your only chance was outrunning the other kids you were with. But if you skirted the edge of the property, Bernie never bothered you, not even a bark.
Were Jeff's posts personal attacks? Of course they were. They were personal attacks against Cliff Stamp, that is something that the two of them or the moderators will have to work out. My point was that not a single person has disputed that Busse makes great knives and has an incredible warranty.
There is a difference between a personal argument between two individuals, where both have equal access to voice there opinions and an argument where one side is censored, and if he speaks freely subject to economic sanctions.
Cliff does all right for him self defending himself against collateral attacks. Is either side to this debate right? Nope, and that includes me for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
Stay safe,
Chad
When I was younger there were a man in the neighborhood had two German shepards, one named Whitey (who was very white, almost albino) and Bernie (who was big and dark). The fastest way to the pond where we used to catch turtles was through his property.
Now Whitey would start chasing you as soon as you got near the property, but if you threw a garbage bag, or your little brother's jacket he would stop and tear that to shreds. By the time he began the chase again, we were long gone.
Bernie on the other hand, would wait, and if you came close to the house, your ass was his. You couldn't outrun him, so your only chance was outrunning the other kids you were with. But if you skirted the edge of the property, Bernie never bothered you, not even a bark.
Were Jeff's posts personal attacks? Of course they were. They were personal attacks against Cliff Stamp, that is something that the two of them or the moderators will have to work out. My point was that not a single person has disputed that Busse makes great knives and has an incredible warranty.
There is a difference between a personal argument between two individuals, where both have equal access to voice there opinions and an argument where one side is censored, and if he speaks freely subject to economic sanctions.
Cliff does all right for him self defending himself against collateral attacks. Is either side to this debate right? Nope, and that includes me for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
Stay safe,
Chad
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
However, try to find anywhere on this thread that I jumped on Busse, Swamp Rat, or any other maker.
I didn't say you attacked Busse?
If you want to base your argument on integrity then don't take sentences out of context and argue on the merit of the words typed.
Well, once again I didn't accuse you of attacking other makers, it was
about personal insults and name calling. I disagree on that, I think there was no merrit in doing that, and the quote was related to that, nothing else. I don't think I took anything out of context.
Well hell guys this has been a real hoot. What do y'all say we all get together for a beer, a steak, and write a bunch of articles for Tactical Knives magazine? I'm just about argued out. Who's buying? Now that could be grounds for a real argument.
I'm surprised Spark let it go on as long as it has, but as someone else implied here...it was one of those threads that needed to happen. So, having said that, the real hero on this whole thread is Spark for controlling any tendancy to lock it down
Bottom line for me is I like just about everyone's knives in one way or the other. Some are better than others for certain tasks and some are worse. Even though I no longer write for TK, I have already had three large manufacturers call me after hearing the news, offering up knives for personal evaluation and feedback. Also just got off the phone with a custom maker wanting us to do the same thing. So, eventually we'll be back in the reviewing business. Positives do come from negatives.
Hell Cliff, we should start our own TV show like CNN Crossfire. Better yet, we just get Spark to give us some bandwidth on Bladeforums and we both review the same knife for a Bladeforums unedited magazine. Now talk about contrasting reporting The Cliffy and Jeffy show
I'm surprised Spark let it go on as long as it has, but as someone else implied here...it was one of those threads that needed to happen. So, having said that, the real hero on this whole thread is Spark for controlling any tendancy to lock it down
Bottom line for me is I like just about everyone's knives in one way or the other. Some are better than others for certain tasks and some are worse. Even though I no longer write for TK, I have already had three large manufacturers call me after hearing the news, offering up knives for personal evaluation and feedback. Also just got off the phone with a custom maker wanting us to do the same thing. So, eventually we'll be back in the reviewing business. Positives do come from negatives.
Hell Cliff, we should start our own TV show like CNN Crossfire. Better yet, we just get Spark to give us some bandwidth on Bladeforums and we both review the same knife for a Bladeforums unedited magazine. Now talk about contrasting reporting
The Cliffy and Jeffy show 
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 6,104
Jeff, I guess you were joking, but that would be interesting. Different locales, climates, and goals for the tools. That could make for some really comprehensive reviews.Originally posted by JeffRandall
Better yet, we just get Spark to give us some bandwidth on Bladeforums and we both review the same knife for a Bladeforums unedited magazine. Now talk about contrasting reporting
When I was in the military, there were alot of guys in my company I didn't like. I'm sure they didn't like me.
None of that mattered, and even the people who butted heads worked well together on actual problems, because we weren't in it for ourselves, but to accomplish a common goal.
I need a tissue...
Jerry Busse
Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 11,729
Brian Jones,
Who are you? I know you are the moderator for the Survival Forum and a VERY close friend of Ron Hoods but I did not know that you were the official spokesperson for TOPS knives. If you will please have Mike Fuller direct an email or phone call to me that indicates your position within his organization, I would be more than happy to direct all future correspondence to you.
Jerry, still waiting to see if you are gonna put up or shut up -- you're the one who suggested the trade show format, thinking I'd cut and run. Where are ya pal? Was that all just hype and chest puffing on the forum or did you mean it? ---Brian Jones
These are big words from someone who is sitting in the stands. We have already contacted REED Exhibitions and reserved our booth. I asked them what your involvement with this show was and was told that you are an employee of Reed Exhibitions. This certainly clarifies your puffing and posturing in order to promote this show. . . . its your job.
As for putting up or shutting up, you can rest assured that this opportunity has been, and will continue to be, afforded to many in the cutlery industry. We accept only live performance tests from Knife Manufacturers and will not accept performance tests performed by their customers, dealers, or cheerleaders without their written permission. So, sadly, unless something changes, you will have to remain in your current role of cheerleader on the sidelines.
I look forward to the show. If you have any further challenging remarks please call me, I can be reached at (419) 923-6471.
Jerry Busse
Who are you? I know you are the moderator for the Survival Forum and a VERY close friend of Ron Hoods but I did not know that you were the official spokesperson for TOPS knives. If you will please have Mike Fuller direct an email or phone call to me that indicates your position within his organization, I would be more than happy to direct all future correspondence to you.
Jerry, still waiting to see if you are gonna put up or shut up -- you're the one who suggested the trade show format, thinking I'd cut and run. Where are ya pal? Was that all just hype and chest puffing on the forum or did you mean it? ---Brian Jones
These are big words from someone who is sitting in the stands. We have already contacted REED Exhibitions and reserved our booth. I asked them what your involvement with this show was and was told that you are an employee of Reed Exhibitions. This certainly clarifies your puffing and posturing in order to promote this show. . . . its your job.
As for putting up or shutting up, you can rest assured that this opportunity has been, and will continue to be, afforded to many in the cutlery industry. We accept only live performance tests from Knife Manufacturers and will not accept performance tests performed by their customers, dealers, or cheerleaders without their written permission. So, sadly, unless something changes, you will have to remain in your current role of cheerleader on the sidelines.
I look forward to the show. If you have any further challenging remarks please call me, I can be reached at (419) 923-6471.
Jerry Busse
- Status