What Buck,What Gun ?

[JNewell]

Cheap is cheap, and that's the end of that tune.

Lots of $1k-3k 1911s will hardly cycle two shots in sequence if you look at them cross-eyed. I'm not sure a KelTec would be my first choice, but the engineering and design on these is very impressive. If nothing else, they are excellent values, and probably better than that.

 

[Guyon]

Cheap is cheap, and that's the end of that tune.

If I had to live in Alabama I'd buy a Kel-Tec and put it to my head.

Must be nice to know it all. :thumbup:

If I had to live in Minnesota, I'd... well, I'd just never live in Minnesota.

BTW: The man asked a question about a knife companion for his carry pistol, and right out of the gate, you slammed his pistol choice. That's bad form.
If you have specifics about Kel-Tec pistol failures, let's hear them. Otherwise, a blanket judgment of "crap" just because it's not a Glock doesn't hold much water with me.

 

[Silverdagger]

Fixed it for you

Yeah man thanks!

I wouldn't want to be cut by or shot by either of those bad boys.

 

[bucksway]

When you comr right down to it the bad guys dont fall from the gun you use...A hot 380 Cor-Bon or simular,or a fragible premium round really IS effictive tho not as much as a larger round of the same type....A small knife saved me from serious harm, well, a big one might have worked better BUT I HAD ONE.... I am sure there will be times I'll carry a bigger knife/gun too..Rocinante is ok...There probley is a unfortante reason he feels that strongly...Mabe a freind had a bad experence with a small caliber in self defence...

 

[Guyon]

When you comr right down to it the bad guys dont fall from the gun you use...A hot 380 Cor-Bon or simular,or a fragible premium round really IS effictive tho not as much as a larger round of the same type....A small knife saved me from serious harm, well, a big one might have worked better BUT I HAD ONE.... I am sure there will be times I'll carry a bigger knife/gun too..

Given the choice between a pocket .380 and a full-sized 9mm or, bigger still, a 1911, I'd take the bigger two options in a pinch. But I never know when that pinch is coming, so I play the odds, use my head, and try to stay out of pinches. In fact, your brain, used correctly, is going to keep you safer than a gun on your hip.

I own larger 9mm semi-autos as well as a 4" S&W revolver. Do I always want to carry these larger handguns? Not in the summer. I like t-shirts. I like tucking my shirt in sometimes. I don't always want to wear a thick leather gun belt or buy bigger pants so I can use an IWB holster. In other words, I don't want to change my entire summer wardrobe to accommodate a larger pistol.

Do I always want to carry the smaller .380? Sure. It slips in a pocket, doesn't print like a gun at all, and I can go about my business knowing that I at least have something to offer up should my health be threatened with deadly force. Everything I've read about the Kel-Tecs tells me that they are dependable firearms. They're not meant for extensive target practice, but they reliably fire a round when you pull the trigger.

Like anything else, it's about the risk you're willing to take. If you use your head and remain aware of what's going on around you, you can lower that risk.

 

[Rocinante]

Using your head means you don't buy a cheap gun like a Kel-Tec if it's chosen to be the gun that could save your life and perhaps the lives of loved ones.

Just using a little common sense helps a lot. If you're going to go to the trouble, expense and risk of becoming a concealed weapon carrier, why would you save a few bucks by carrying a cheap gun?

Get the best training, keep up your practice and carry the best.......accept no substitutes.

That makes sense.

BTW, I wear (as I have said several times) a normal summer wardrobe.....and I carry a small, high-quality gun with a lot of firepower (a Glock 26).

Nothing difficult about it.

 

[Pack Rat]

 

[Stainz]

Hey, I was born in Brooklyn, went to PS-9... lived in lots of places. I proudly call Alabama home. Don't knock it until you've visited. I've been to MN - may as well go to Canada! We have some great scenery - from our mountains to the Redneck Riviera (Gulf Shores). And... we have the best local government money can buy. Lots of gunstores, too. Sadly, local 'knife stores' all have Case displays... Wally World probably carries more Bucks than any knife store I know of... sigh.

Okay, I bought my wife a good but dimunitive evil-bottom-feeder - a .32 ACP - that would fit in her jeans. I agree - don't skimp - leave the Tupperware for last night's left-overs in the fridge. I bought her a Seecamp - good SS. Sadly, she carries a Kershaw Chive, couldn't stand the Buck 503 - maybe if it had been a 'Princess' instead? Anyway, the bottom feeder/revolver choice/debate would continue ad nauseum, as would injecting brand names. Suffice it to say that as a part-time public range RO for years, I had a bunch of housewife's present with their early KelTec .32s & .380s - and they would stovepipe regularly. The older .32s would even simply fail to fire, period. KelTec repaired them free of charge - and, around two or so years ago, they started presenting new with near perfect function. Even Lewis Seecamp will tell you to shoot his little works of art some (Not a lot!) to insure they function properly before depending on them.

I guess I can admit it - I like revolvers because they are like me - round in the middle. I could probably pocket carry that 625, if someone made pockets deep enough. Also, unlike those rude-case-tossers, they can dump their empties in your hand - not askew upon the ground. Great for reloading. As one becomes volumetrically and chronologically challenged, that becomes important, too. I guess carrying a 110 in my pocket 'prepared' me for revolvers... YMMV.

Stainz

PS The most common blown up handgun we had occur at the range were collectively the .40 Glocks - they blew out a piece of the bottom of the chamber - usually, with LEO loads - some homebrews, too. One detonated the top round in the mag - the guy was lucky - scratches and bits of debris in his arm & hand - no stitches. Never a 9mm or .45.

 

[WilltheBarb]

If Minnesota is anything like my part of Canada it’s probably pretty nice Stainz. You should pack up your snowshoes and come on up and see. We hardly ever see hand guns here but there are lots of things you can do with a long gun. My pair will be a Nickel Steel Winchester Model 12 in 12 gauge and a Buck 321 Bird Knife. Not for EDC I grant you but they go terrific together in the fall.

 

[Tin Sue]

I have the skills and training to survive that situation.....IF I have the equipment.

 

[Stainz]

I've been through Ontario several times. Once, when crossing at Niagra Falls, the nice Canadian lady border agent asked me twice if I had any firearms - twice I answered no - then she said "Are you sure you are from Alabama?". The US agent was a total jerk. I love Canada, eh? But, y'all talk funny, eh? It's cold - and snows a lot, eh? I've been up near Orillia in May and October of the year - always amazed at how nice Canadians are - and trusting - they don't lock anything! Here, you have to cover A/C compressor/condenser units to avoid copper thefts - at church! Then there is the theme of this thread - you need to carry protection in the form of a firearm. Yeah, I am not so fond of snow, eh, or I'd move - and learn to say 'eh', eh, like y'all do. At least I stopped wit da youse-guyze! Gotta go find the gourd and get some water - and clean the outhouse... maybe we'll get electricity one day, too...

Stainz

 

[Pack Rat]

Funny story about rude case tossers.

Last time I updated my CHL I was on the line firing and felt a slight "flick" lightly touch the top of my head. First thought was a blue jay with a nest under the cover of the outdoor range. But that wouldn't make sense with the noise. Then maybe one of those red wasps that are so abundant around here.

luckily we were just starting and on the close targets so it didn't mess up my center mass. This began happening about every 2nd or 3rd round we fired and I quickly adapted.

I guess I was just the right height and the Kimber .45 next door was at just a perfect angle. Once I figured that out I was ok. And I didn't want to disrupt the class to move to another station, or shift positions and possibly start taking them down the shirt collar

Told the young guy about it after the shooting was over and we had a good laugh.

He and I were the only two that shot a perfect score.

And it was interesting that this instructor pulled all the Glock shooters together in one bunch and did them separate from everyone else. Never did exactly figure that out. Was kind of a pain as it slowed the class down waiting on them.

 

[Pete1977]

I've been through Ontario several times. Once, when crossing at Niagra Falls, the nice Canadian lady border agent asked me twice if I had any firearms - twice I answered no - then she said "Are you sure you are from Alabama?". The US agent was a total jerk. I love Canada, eh? But, y'all talk funny, eh? It's cold - and snows a lot, eh? I've been up near Orillia in May and October of the year - always amazed at how nice Canadians are - and trusting - they don't lock anything! Here, you have to cover A/C compressor/condenser units to avoid copper thefts - at church! Then there is the theme of this thread - you need to carry protection in the form of a firearm. Yeah, I am not so fond of snow, eh, or I'd move - and learn to say 'eh', eh, like y'all do. At least I stopped wit da youse-guyze! Gotta go find the gourd and get some water - and clean the outhouse... maybe we'll get electricity one day, too...

Stainz

Funny, five or so years ago I crossed at Niagra and the HOT canadian customs agent asked us if we had any tobacco, alcohol, or weapons. I had a fully serrated endura and told her I had a pocket knife. She asked if it opened with a spring, I said no, and she waved us through. Traffic, both vehicle and pedestrian, was outrageous on the canadian side so we went back into America after about 30 minutes and the US Customs agent was an absolute @&&hole. He didn't believe our occupations of commercial fisherman (me) and student (my girlfriend), accused us of trying to take his picture when she was moving her camera to get her ID (the camera never left its case) and said that we were nervous when in fact we were pissed off. My father was in law enforcement for over 30 years and I know how law enforcement officials should behave. Rudeness isnt it.

Back on topic, the old man carried a .25 beretta auto off duty and occasionally a colt .380 auto. 99% of the time it was the .25 with glazers. He was issued the Glock 17 as his service firearm. back then he carried an endura, rescue or dragonfly SE or a small buck folder (squire I think). He was never a knife or gun guy, the knife was a tool and the off duty firearm was a requirement of his department. When I lived in florida he was always asking me to locate a Seecamp .32 for him.

 

[Rocinante]

The man asked a question about a knife companion for his carry pistol, and right out of the gate, you slammed his pistol choice. That's bad form.

That was only because his pistol choice was wrong.



Besides, he discussed it rationally and didn't take offense, so why should you?

Opinions differ on knives and guns, no big deal.

I know I carry the best and he calls what I carry a "serious piece" so I guess he knows it's different from his Kel-Tec in some way, huh?

 

[Rocinante]

I also think these anecdotal stories about Glock failures are misleading.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's another pistol in wider professional use and none with a better record of being rock solid dependable.

 

[bucksway]

The biggest difference is it's a lot smaller......Ruger, who can be considered a high quality maker just released a 'copy' of the kel-Tec.....

 

[Guyon]

That was only because his pistol choice was wrong.



Besides, he discussed it rationally and didn't take offense, so why should you?

Opinions differ on knives and guns, no big deal.

I know I carry the best and he calls what I carry a "serious piece" so I guess he knows it's different from his Kel-Tec in some way, huh?

Rocinante, I didn't take offense at all. I just pointed out some bad manners and an obvious lack of knowledge/information about the Kel-Tecs. I still haven't seen anything to the contrary. I've owned and shot a P32 and a P3AT. No problems with either one.

Stainz points out that the early guns had some cycling issues. That I knew from online discussions on both The Firing Line and The High Road as well as from discussions at keltec.org. But I also knew that Kel-Tec had addressed the issues, and as Stainz also points out, the guns produced in the last several years tend to function flawlessly.

Opinions differ. Good manners ought to be a constant. There are ways of critiquing a man's gun of choice without (wrongfully) calling it "crap." I'm no moderator, but when you called his gun "crap," you did the same for mine. I'm just correcting the record.

I also know Glocks have plenty of competition in terms of the "best" pistols produced. H&K, Beretta, SIG, Colt, Kimber and a host of other companies put out a fine pistol. But that's just my opinion.

I'm also pretty sure bucksway meant "serious" in the sense of more stopping power (foot-pounds of energy) and magazine capacity. I don't think his comment had anything to do with reliability or quality.

 

[Guyon]

The biggest difference is it's a lot smaller......Ruger, who can be considered a high quality maker just released a 'copy' of the kel-Tec.....

Damn things are hard to find. I've been looking for one, and I keep missing them at my local Academy Sports. They last all of about an hour when the store stocks them.

 

[Rocinante]

There are ways of critiquing a man's gun of choice without (wrongfully) calling it "crap." I'm no moderator, but when you called his gun "crap," you did the same for mine.

Sorry for the blunt response, but crap is crap, cheap is cheap, and since cheap crap can get you killed, there's no point in dancing around the issue.

Chances are, you'll never have to use it anyway.

 

[Guyon]

Sorry for the blunt response, but crap is crap, cheap is cheap, and since cheap crap can get you killed, there's no point in dancing around the issue.

Proof is in the pudding. I'm not seeing a whole lot of pudding.

Seriously, I do agree that you usually get what you pay for. But as far as lightweight and reliable small pistols go, the Kel-Tec is currently at the top of the list. You can spend a lot more for a similar sized pistol, but I don't know why you would, unless you just like burning cash. Most of the other choices are quite a bit heavier anyway, and I'm not partial to carrying bricks in my pocket during the summer months.

In this same category (small and lightweight), I'm looking forward to trying the Ruger soon.