What can you fairly expect a knife to do?

M

meanwhile

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Nov 20, 2005
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I'm no great expert on using knives, but I thought I understood the rules for small blades like my Mora Clipper at least. But now I'm being told that you shouldn't baton cut with knives, even fixed blades AT ALL and that knife manufacturers are saying this (someone said that this applied to ColdSteel, and even to big knives like the Trailmaster - this was supposed to come from a comment by the CEO.) And what sounds even crazier, that you shouldn't chop branches or twigs that are either too small or too big for a knife. This sounded insane to me, but then I was shown

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/923901/


Whacking small sticks is an improper technique and your blade is the reason why.

When chopping small sticks the edge bites the wood before it starts to bend from the impact much like grabbing the fine edge and twisting.

Larger sticks that require "chopping" aren't moved by the chopping energy so the edge isn't being torqued.

This is why you don't "chop" things that require only one or two chops. Supporting the reasoning for not chopping with small knives. The correct technique is batoning OR snapping against the knife edge.

The rolls always look much worse than they really are... send in the knife for repair. If you don't like what comes back.... then sell it. My guess, you be happy

..And the manufacturer, Bark River, supported this and didn't even offer to replace the knife that had broken this way - even though it was a survival knife (I think.)

Does this make any sense to anyone else? Because it doesn't to me - if you believe what Bark River are saying, or at least supporting when this guy says it (because they're not replacing the knife and letting his explanation stand) THEN NO KNIFE SHOULD EVER BE USED FOR CHOPPING ANY BRANCH THAT WILL MOVE WHEN HIT. But doesn't this happen all the time with leukus used to chop willow branches, machetes used to cut brush? And if this rule is true for all knives, as seemed to be accepted in that thread, why don't knife manufacturers tell people this? Why haven't my knives broken when I've used them for pruning - have I been lucky?

Most of all, is it weird that I didn't know this, because everyone else does, or is it just completely bizarre that everyone in a thread accepted this without question???
 
I believe there talking about proper techniques for using a small knife on wood. But big knives like my Kabar Heavy Bowie have no problem with sticks or sapplings for that matter. I've even used a Martinni Henry 4-7/8" knife to cut a small tree and it held up fine. Probably just somebody voicing what they know, no matter how odd it is.
 
It does sound like they mean small knives not intended for chopping.

If you've got a machete or a kukri, it's a no brainer that you're going to chop with them. That's what they're made to do.


His advice of batoning through small stuff is actually quite sound. You can carry a walking stick and brace the small stick as you chop it, and it's 10x easier than trying to swing the knife fast enough to cut through it before it moves.
 
Bad heat treatment, knife would need to be replaced IMO.

If the blades are ground thin like these are the HT better be dead on on things like will happen if the knife is really used.
 
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10mm Glock said:
+1 Was it even heat treated at all? Looks like it skipped the most important step.
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Yeah I pushed knives that are ground one heck of a lot thinner and in steels that are not as tough at very high hardness through knots and didn't have that problem.
 
When I worked at a garage, a guy asked me if filling his tires with nitrogen would make his car get better gas mileage. I told him that what he does with his right foot and that narrow pedal was going to do more to help or hurt his gas mileage than anything else.

Knives are made to cut things. If you tell me that this specific knife is only made to cut these specific things under these specific circumstances, or that it is specifically not to be used to cut these things under these circumstances, I'll pull out my Mini-Griptilian and whittle the damn stick free of the tree if I have to!

Now, I may have misunderstood the point of the argument, but it seems to me that somebody is pissing on somebody's boots and trying to tell them it's raining.
 
Shorttime said:
When I worked at a garage, a guy asked me if filling his tires with nitrogen would make his car get better gas mileage. I told him that what he does with his right foot and that narrow pedal was going to do more to help or hurt his gas mileage than anything else.

Knives are made to cut things. If you tell me that this specific knife is only made to cut these specific things under these specific circumstances, or that it is specifically not to be used to cut these things under these circumstances, I'll pull out my Mini-Griptilian and whittle the damn stick free of the tree if I have to!

Now, I may have misunderstood the point of the argument, but it seems to me that somebody is pissing on somebody's boots and trying to tell them it's raining.
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Now there are certain types of knives for certain uses like one wouldn't take a Japanese sushi knife and chop down a tree with it or try and cut sushi with a 1/2" thick 12" bladed chopper.

But there is reasonable use and reasonable performance levels that knives should be able to perform and if they just can't then there is a problem.

On that knife in question the HT was botched or that just wouldn't have happened and that damage is ridiculous...
 
"Whacking small sticks is an improper technique "

This line cracks me up (apart from the "that's what she said" factor).

I could accept that chopping very small diameter wood puts a greater stress on the edge compared to larger wood, although this would be offset somewhat because you're not going to be chopping/whacking as forcefully on a small stick. But is it enough to cause that sort of damage? No way. That is extreme edge failure. I think that is excessive damage even if it were chopping bone, as was first suggested in that thread. I think you could go to Wally World and pick any Chinese "surgical stainless" kitchen knife, and it will not suffer such damage.

To address your broader question, at a minimum knives marketed as woods tools should be able to withstand virtually anything involving wood, save for extreme prying. Chopping, cutting, batoning, should at worst result in no more than minor edge damage (minor being correctable during 1 sharpening session, in my mind). A knife marketed as a survival knife should be able to withstand something beyond that, although it's unclear what survival exactly entails in the minds of these marketers.

I think many manufacturers like to play both sides of the fence with respect to marketing, particularly the ones that cater to the "survival" fad. The knives are indirectly marketed as being able to withstand all sorts of abuse, as being a tool you can count on with your life. Many are marketed as being preferred by elite military units (which I believe is the case with the knife in question...do you think these special forces guys would be wary of whacking small sticks with their knife?). But direct claims are almost never made, because they want to maintain plausible deniability for warranty claims.

To me these manufacturers would be better off adopting a "no questions asked" warranty, instead of trying to blame the user for failure. Warranty costs would increase, perhaps, but it would give a much better perception to potential customers, and keep exisiting customers loyal. It also provides a constant motivation to improve quality, so as to minimize warranty costs. Most of the better run companies (in all fields) have these sorts of policies. Don't you think Busse's warranty policy has earned them more money than it has cost them?



Anyways, what I find most odd about that thread is how easily the owner of the knife is persuaded that the damage is due to his ignorance of the brutality involved in whacking small sticks. There's an almost Catholic level of self-guilt going on there.
 
While improper chopping technique can cause blades to chip out, that explanation would be easier to accept coming from a manufacturer less prone to blaming "improper technique" or "user error" or an "unskilled user" when their edges chip or roll.

My 2 cents.
 
marcinek said:
While improper chopping technique can cause blades to chip out, that explanation would be easier to accept coming from a manufacturer less prone to blaming "improper technique" or "user error" or an "unskilled user" when their edges chip or roll.

My 2 cents.
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I saw a larger photo of that damage and the HT was seriously bad for it to fail like that, it just didn't chip, it also warped with part of the edge in the chips bent....

That's not good at all.. if the chips were clean as they should have been I would say user error, but the blade was weak to begin with.

The thinner the blades are ground the better the HT really needs to be or there will be serious issues.

Sounds like those HT issues are still there with BR, something that they need to work on IMO.

If they can't address the issues then they need to start grinding their blades thicker.
 
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marcinek said:
Or it's another of those "unskilled user" outbreaks that happen every once and a while.
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Not with that kind of failure, or should I say how the blade failed, not user error in this case.

I doubt that blade would have made it through my testing process and I know how to use thin blades....
 
Chopping with a small knife isn't the best technique, but that damage looks excessive for just hitting a stick. Too bad Bark River won't replace it.
 
I don't baton with knives at all if I can help it because it seems to me that, no matter how much fun it seems, wailing on a knife with a big stick or rock is an extremely stupid thing to do, or at least a very efficient way to break the knife. I can therefore understand why knife companies want to dissuade their customers from doing so.

With that in mind, that explanation from Bark river / that random forumite sounds extremely silly, to me. It seems like they're denouncing any kind of chopping as abusive behaviour, but advocating batoning as a safe alternative? :confused: What kind of daft notion is that? Hell, I use my knives for that kind of light chopping just about every time I go camping - knocking pine or spruce boughs off to use as an insulating layer, cutting a branch off here or there to make room for a tent or tarp, etc. Half the time I use nothing more than a friggin' pocket knife for that kind of work, and high priced bark river fixed blades can't even stand up to that? :barf:

This isn't the first I've heard of Bark River knives crapping out in a major way, but it's pretty surprising that they blamed it on the user and wouldn't replace it.

[youtube]p4ss8NtqEkw[/youtube]

Note to self: If I ever get it in my head to buy a Bark River, give my head a shake and give my money to ESEE instead.
 
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Ankerson said:
Not with that kind of failure, or should I say how the blade failed, not user error in this case.

I doubt that blade would have made it through my testing process and I know how to use thin blades....
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Absolutely, I didn't even read the post. I don't need to. After five seconds just looking at that blade, It's pretty obvious the HT is way, way, messed up.
 
Dorito Monk said:
This isn't the first I've heard of Bark River knives crapping out in a major way, but it's pretty surprising that they blamed it on the user and wouldn't replace it.

[youtube]p4ss8NtqEkw[/youtube]

Note to self: If I ever get it in my head to buy a Bark River, give my head a shake and give my money to ESEE instead.
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Who do you think they blamed the rolling of the Bark River Custom in the video on?
 
I think its a fairly safe assumption that a $5 kitchen knife wouldn't have taken that kind of damage.
 
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