What can you fairly expect a knife to do?

[Big Mike]

...issued to elite warriors...

I don't know where you get your facts, but no Bark River has ever been issued.

Those that carry them have paid for them themselves or have been gifted them by their friends and loved ones.

Of course, many have been supplied to active duty units by the maker.



As knife user's we should all know that there is more to knives then prying and chopping, I bet more of you cut and sliced today then pried and chopped.


The obsession for knives that can take serious abuse leads us all away from knives that truly cut well.




Big Mike

 

[Robs92XJ]

Mike, I honestly don't understand why you won't acknowledge even the slightest possibility that there was something wrong with that knife. You are totally committed to the idea that the user is always the problem. It's not like BR is the only maker doing thin edges, and this sort of damage is rare. I wonder what sort of damage you would have to see in order to conclude a BR was defective?

Let me put it this way. If you are tasked with outfitting a group of Force Recon Marines, would you feel good about giving them the knife shown in that post? Or would you admonish them, "Marines, this is what happens when you whack small sticks. Never whack small sticks" and tell them that if they damage it it was their own damn fault for being ham fisted crybaby idiots? Could you justify outfitting them with that knife over a regular issue Kabar, or even just a Mora?

And please drop the straw man arguments about bashing concrete and stabbing car hoods. You're the only one talking about that. This knife failed at chopping small sticks. Small sticks, man.

 

[Dorito Monk]

As knife user's we should all know that there is more to knives then prying and chopping, I bet more of you cut and sliced today then pried and chopped.

The obsession for knives that can take serious abuse leads us all away from knives that truly cut well.

'Obsession for knives that can take serious abuse?' I bet the fellow in OP's link would have settled for a knife that didn't nearly shatter when he hit a twig with it. Those unhappy youtubers probably would have been happy if their knives hadn't been too fragile to whittle with. I might say that those are reasonable expectations, but apparently these things were just too much to ask of those particular Bark River knives...

 

[Big Mike]

Mike, I honestly don't understand why you won't acknowledge even the slightest possibility that there was something wrong with that knife. You are totally committed to the idea that the user is always the problem.

Nothing could be farther then the truth, I just know what I've seen in my own experience.

I've busted Mike Stewart's balls more then once only to find out the HT did indeed test within range.

Further testing found that limp wristed chopping did indeed cause half moon shaped chips in properly hardened A2.

I've seen it myself.

Changing to thicker edge geometries where found to take much more abuse, but that's a user decision..

If you need sharpened pry-bars, buy your Busse's and Becker's for that crazy stuff.

But, for real world cutting chores, I buy Bark River's, I use them hard, and I know the no questions asked warranty is just that.

'nuff said for tonight.




Big Mike

 

[marcinek]

Wrong. :thumbdn: :thumbdn: ....
They required a GP/Utility knife to handle cutting chores, not a "survival" knife.

Really? Because I see that the Bravo-1 is described as "The Final Result is a Heavy Duty Bushcraft/Survival Knife that can stand up to Abusive use."


While the Gunny (part of BRKs Search and Rescue Series) is "The Gunny is a smaller version of the Bravo-1 that Bark River Developed for the Force Recon Units of the U.S. Marine Corp. This scaled down version is designed to be as rugged and as useful but in a smaller--easier to carry package."

Hence....rugged as the Bravo-1...a survival knife.

Maybe that's not how it was designed, but that is how it is being marketed at a premier official BRK retailer.

 

[Dorito Monk]

If you need sharpened pry-bars, buy your Busse's and Becker's for that crazy stuff.

But, for real world cutting chores, I buy Bark River's, I use them hard, and I know the no questions asked warranty is just that.

'nuff said for tonight.

Wait...So, people need sharpened-pry bar Busse's and Becker's to handle such rigorous cutting chores as cutting twigs, whittling, or touching chopsticks? I had no idea those things were such abusive, demanding chores!

Alright, but what does that leave? If you can't expect Bark Rivers to go near wood without breaking, what tasks do you think Bark Rivers are actually up to performing? You could use them for hunting, I guess, but if you nicked a bone or something they might fall apart like candy-glass (and that would be the user's fault, of course, by your reasoning). You could open a box or two with them, maybe, so long as you don't hit any staples, and only if the cardboard is no more than one layer thick... Kitchen use is right out, of course: contact with a cutting board would annihalate those edges.

So, these 'real world cutting chores' for which you use your Bark Rivers 'hard', what exactly do they consist of, if you feel that one requires 'sharpened prybars' to handle what most people would consider light cutting tasks?

 

[sodak]

I wouldn't call small chopping tasks "crazy stuff". For the record, even though I almost always thin out my larger knives, Busse and Becker are NOT sharpened prybars. I own more than a few of each. I also own a bunch of BR's and I like them, in spite of the owner or that guy who makes their sheaths. But I stick to CPM 3V, and thus far, they've got the HT right. I can't comment on their A2.

This knife should easily handle this chopping. Period. To suggest that it is an inexperienced user is a copout and utter BS. Whether the problem is heat treat, geometry, or both, I really don't care. The knife failed.

 

[KennyB]

I once sharpened a butter knife that held up better. I've seen $7 fillet knives that were no thicker than utility razors whittle, chop and carve and while they were ruined as fillet knives, their edges were not MANGLED like that.

Also, "Big Mike" it's funny how you pop up any time Stewart's or BRKT's reputation needs defending. Talk about fanboys...

 

[Ankerson]

It seems we got folks here who can test hardness using internet photos.


I doubt HT was a factor, Bark River just grinds their knives thin.


I beat on knives for a living and a passion, and have done similar damage myself.

Re-profiling the edge to a thicker edge spine always solved the problems, and I always went back to re-rest them harder then before, if it was HT it would be obvious.


Bark River sells 30,000 or more knives year to people who know how to use quality cutting tools, it's the fine cutting edge that sets them apart.



A few ham-fisted crybabies damage a few edges and the sky is apparently falling.


Bark River has more orders then it has time to make knives, their knives work for their main customer base, I doubt their too worried about the few who prefer an obtuse edge.


And, just for the record, I use and have tested many Bark River Knives, but I have never worked for the company in any position or manor.




Big Mike

I have some knives that make BR look thick and haven't had that problem... And they are in High Alloy Steels at high hardness.

 

[Doogoon]

I don't think I've ever seen knives perform so poorly.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I would hate to lose money due to ignorance of this issue.

 

[Cota]

OK, here we go...I really want to know why the hell you guys think you need to chop and baton wood all the time, I make knives, and they will stand up to this, but why? I have spent as much time outdoors as anyone, I have had years where I spent 200+ days living in a tent in the woods. I have lived in a tepee that I made myself in Alaska. All this said, I have never "needed" to baton or chop wood with a 4" knife, NEVER. I have always either cut with a machete, or hatchet. If I dont have either of those, I simply build a fire/shelter with sticks/branches that I can break by hand, or with leverage. Now, I know this is off topic, and that knife should not have failed like that, none I make would have, if so it would have been money back, or full replacement. Really though, whats up with this type of mindset that you feel like you need to do this? Is it to test the knife? is it because you saw it on some web site, or some fake reality series? Im not trying to troll here, I just want to know.....

 

[shunsui]

You know, a $33 Estwing hatchet is such a good bargain, you could afford to buy a Spyderco South Fork to go with it.

 

[meanwhile]

I don't know where you get your facts, but no Bark River has ever been issued.

This is ingenuous (i.e. yes, you do know.) From Bark River's own site:

The Bravo-1 was specifically designed with the folks at the Southern Training Center of the Force Recon Units of the U.S. Marine Corps. That initial contact was back in 2006 and we began delivery in 2007 of the Bravo-1 and they are is still in heavy demand from professionals, both Military and Private Contractors, and is in use by a lot of private citizens as their "Go To" knife for Heavy Outdoor Use. Since that time we have delivered over 12,000 Bravo-1s.

I.e. BKRT makes it sound as if the knife has been issued, even though it hasn't. Of course, issue is trackable, via issue numbers, whereas "Oh - we can see how how you thought it was issued, but no, it was the instructors working outside the system" is not.

As knife user's we should all know that there is more to knives then prying and chopping, I bet more of you cut and sliced today then pried and chopped.

And I bet no one's knife fell apart when they sliced a chopstick. Unless it was a BKRT.

 

[meanwhile]

OK, here we go...I really want to know why the hell you guys think you need to chop and baton wood all the time, I make knives, and they will stand up to this, but why? I have spent as much time outdoors as anyone, I have had years where I spent 200+ days living in a tent in the woods. I have lived in a tepee that I made myself in Alaska. All this said, I have never "needed" to baton or chop wood with a 4" knife, NEVER. I have always either cut with a machete, or hatchet. If I dont have either of those, I simply build a fire/shelter with sticks/branches that I can break by hand, or with leverage. Now, I know this is off topic, and that knife should not have failed like that, none I make would have, if so it would have been money back, or full replacement. Really though, whats up with this type of mindset that you feel like you need to do this? Is it to test the knife? is it because you saw it on some web site, or some fake reality series? Im not trying to troll here, I just want to know.....

I've asked people this myself. The answer is usually that a small survival knife is there for emergencies, so you can't count on having an axe along, and you may have to baton cut to get at dry wood for tinder if you're in a rain saturated environment like the North Pacific coast of the USA or the UK.

Another answer is to cut notches for butt joints in carpentry - woodworkers expect cheap Moras and Bahcos to do this all day, and they'll usually be whacking them into seasoned wood with a metal hammer (the bit you want is at 75 seconds)

[video=youtube;9-IYKLXjMl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9-IYKLXjMl8#t=75s[/video]

 

[BladeChick777]

Something was obviously wrong with the knife.
I chopped up several small sticks with a BM H&K Conspiracy Folder with cheaper blade steel and it was fine. No chips or rolls and it certainly didn't look like that BRKT. People say to use a fixed blade for that type of work, not a folder. Well he used his fixed blade and then people are telling him he's wrong? Even if that was the wrong knife and wrong way for the job at hand there is no way that knife should have come out looking like that and it should be covered under the warranty. A small stick should not be able to do that much damage to that knife just by simple chopping. Roll the edge, ding the edge, even chip it a little, sure, but not completely take chunks out of the blade.
Different knives are made for different things and that's why we have so many choices. But I still don't see how chopping small sticks was able to do that to the knife. There had to be something faulty with it.

Chopping isn't always needed but sometimes I guess people just feel like they do need to. They should have the proper knife for the job but sometimes we only have what's at hand. But the knife shouldn't have failed like that. I wouldn't even expect a cheap crap knife to fail like that. When I was messing with my Conspiracy I was indeed putting it through it's paces, putting it through some heavier use, and it stood up very well. Some knives won't, but I wouldn't expect them to just dent chunks of the blade in(especially from such upheld knife companies). There have been tests on $5 cheapo knives that stood up way better than that BRKT and that's surprising and just shouldn't be so.

Bottom line - That knife probably shouldn't have been used that way but it for sure shouldn't have just failed that badly.

 

[wroughndt]

I think if Mike Stewart would admit that, from time to time as any other company does, BRK lets out a lemon every now and then, there wouldn't be all of the controversy. We all know that there is something wrong with the knife. If they just said "yep, we let out a lemon and we will take care of it" we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

 

[Ankerson]

OK, here we go...I really want to know why the hell you guys think you need to chop and baton wood all the time, I make knives, and they will stand up to this, but why? I have spent as much time outdoors as anyone, I have had years where I spent 200+ days living in a tent in the woods. I have lived in a tepee that I made myself in Alaska. All this said, I have never "needed" to baton or chop wood with a 4" knife, NEVER. I have always either cut with a machete, or hatchet. If I dont have either of those, I simply build a fire/shelter with sticks/branches that I can break by hand, or with leverage. Now, I know this is off topic, and that knife should not have failed like that, none I make would have, if so it would have been money back, or full replacement. Really though, whats up with this type of mindset that you feel like you need to do this? Is it to test the knife? is it because you saw it on some web site, or some fake reality series? Im not trying to troll here, I just want to know.....

There are knives made to chop and baton with and for the most part they do work well, larger knives..

That said chopping with a 4" knife wouldn't be very efficient or effective as some know, better to either cut through or baton the blade through.

Even so that knife in question shouldn't have failed like that.

 

[crom]

I think BRK makes beautiful knives, but after seeing this knife (OP posted link to) and that video Dorito Monk posted I'd have to pass on them.

 

[stabman]

I think BRK makes beautiful knives, but after seeing this knife (OP posted link to) and that video Dorito Monk posted I'd have to pass on them.

Some do just fine...

Just get one meant for chopping.

 

[me2]

One thing I see here is that BRKT is missing a huge opportunity. They should offer classes on proper knife use to prevent this type of thing. Topics could include how not to whittle a chopstick with a blade >= 3/16" thick, and how to chop branches 3/4" diameter or less. How to accept knife damage is your fault and how to be content when we grind out damage instead of replacing a faulty knife are acceptable alternative topics.