What Chinese stuff is okay?

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Chronovore said:
This is where some of the rubber hits the road. There has been a lot of discussion on Chinese D2 being all over the map. I generally avoid it though Petrified Fish does seem to be the best choice for it.

The 9Cr18Mov from WE really is exceptional and often makes it the "best bang for the buck" on a budget steel. At least from any of the recommended companies off my list, other steels that seem to perform well relative to price have been 14C28N, N690, 10Cr15CoMov, and 154CM. On the budget level, companies like Spyderco who are still running 8Cr13Mov in $50 knives are just way behind the curve versus the above. The performance gap can be huge, wherein the WE 9Cr18Mov on a $40 Sencut not only smokes Spyderco's 8Cr13Mov but can actually outperform their VG-10!

Things turn around once we get to super steels but that's not just a Chinese problem. Lots of production knives in M390 fall short of expectation. However, it's a pretty safe bet that the M390 or 20CV you get from Spyderco will outperform what you get from WE.
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Real talk right there. To the newer guys, listen to Chronovore here, he's probably the most well-versed person I've seen here on knowledge of chinese brands high and low end. Not too many people put as much research as him. I appreciate it brother and I agree on the M390 for sure. It's a pity too because M390 is so prevalent in the higher end production knives, yet basically nobody does it justice except Spyderco.
 
There are a bunch of native Chinese knife makers that produce quality products, especially in the YangJiang region, and they're often working closely with Western knife designers (like the Elijah Isham designed Civivi Plethiros seen below). I have a few Kizer, WE, Civivi, Artisan Cutlery, Real Steel, and QSP knives. Reate, Bestech, Kansept, and TwoSun are some other highly regarded companies that I don't have any knives from. While I've bought a number of folders from these companies (especially Kizer), I tend to stay away from their fixed blades (other than a single QSP Neckmuk). The fixed blade market is a place where I don't think that China has done a very good job breaking into. China makes a lot of garbage and counterfeit knives too, which is more than a little problematic.

A big problem is when American knife companies off-shore their manufacturing and do a terrible job at oversight, where it can get to the point where you'd swear the heat treatment was done in an Easy Bake Oven. I'll buy a 440C steel blade from Buck that's made in the US, but won't do so if it's made in China. Spyderco and Boker seem to do a better job at oversight of their brand, for knives made elsewhere, possibly because it's something both brands have a lot of experience doing. Some of the Boker Magnum budget sub-brand are borderline gas station knives, but the Boker Plus knives made in China are decent.

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Finch Knives is a Kansas company whose knives are made by QSP. I have two, and they are excellent. My Civivi Baby Banter is a fine edc that seems to have made a home in my pocket.
 
I am not a $200 sort of knife guy. My price range is lower, and I look for value for money.



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Same model but D2 and G10 handles, and it was $35.00 delivered

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I have a number of other CH knives, and am happy with them.

Kizer has always been good

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Bestech has very good designs, and they are priced right.

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Chronovore said:
This is where some of the rubber hits the road. There has been a lot of discussion on Chinese D2 being all over the map. I generally avoid it though Petrified Fish does seem to be the best choice for it.

The 9Cr18Mov from WE really is exceptional and often makes it the "best bang for the buck" on a budget steel. At least from any of the recommended companies off my list, other steels that seem to perform well relative to price have been 14C28N, N690, 10Cr15CoMov, and 154CM. On the budget level, companies like Spyderco who are still running 8Cr13Mov in $50 knives are just way behind the curve versus the above. The performance gap can be huge, wherein the WE 9Cr18Mov on a $40 Sencut not only smokes Spyderco's 8Cr13Mov but can actually outperform their VG-10!

Things turn around once we get to super steels but that's not just a Chinese problem. Lots of production knives in M390 fall short of expectation. However, it's a pretty safe bet that the M390 or 20CV you get from Spyderco will outperform what you get from WE.
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I have 3 Civivi with the 9cr based damascus, and it punches way above its belt. Good stuff.

I agree that M390/20cv/204p varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even between models from the same place. I wonder why. I can understand in the case of the Chinese knives maybe cutting corners to save money. I've heard that the Italians in particular run it soft. My A Purvis Progeny has surprised me with the performance of its M390 (positively), as has the Southard. I wonder if part of it has to do with edge geometry, thinner blades being run softer to possibly increase toughness and/or ease of sharpening. I remember when M390 first became popular, people complained (as with many super steels) that it was difficult to sharpen.

The most used knives I have with those steels are the aforementioned Progeny and Southard. They have been pretty on par with each other, though both are hollow ground.
 
K.O.D. said:
I have 3 Civivi with the 9cr based damascus, and it punches way above its belt. Good stuff.

I agree that M390/20cv/204p varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even between models from the same place. I wonder why. I can understand in the case of the Chinese knives maybe cutting corners to save money. I've heard that the Italians in particular run it soft. My A Purvis Progeny has surprised me with the performance of its M390 (positively), as has the Southard. I wonder if part of it has to do with edge geometry, thinner blades being run softer to possibly increase toughness and/or ease of sharpening. I remember when M390 first became popular, people complained (as with many super steels) that it was difficult to sharpen.

The most used knives I have with those steels are the aforementioned Progeny and Southard. They have been pretty on par with each other, though both are hollow ground.
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There are two basic reasons why some (most) manufacturers run knives on the softer side:
1. Cost: higher hrc increases machining cost. It takes longer to grind and they go through more bits and belts; and
2. Customer complaints: higher hrc results in more chipped blades, and apparently customers are more likely to complain about chips than rolls.
 
K.O.D. said:
I agree that M390/20cv/204p varies greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even between models from the same place. I wonder why. I can understand in the case of the Chinese knives maybe cutting corners to save money. I've heard that the Italians in particular run it soft. My A Purvis Progeny has surprised me with the performance of its M390 (positively), as has the Southard. I wonder if part of it has to do with edge geometry, thinner blades being run softer to possibly increase toughness and/or ease of sharpening. I remember when M390 first became popular, people complained (as with many super steels) that it was difficult to sharpen.
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LimpCroissant said:
... I agree on the M390 for sure. It's a pity too because M390 is so prevalent in the higher end production knives, yet basically nobody does it justice except Spyderco.
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If you saw any of the controlled edge testing that Outpost76 had been doing, M390 issues could have become a series in its own right. Some of the speculation was similar to D2 issues in that M390 just needs more care in heat treatment. Target hardness might be the other culprit. Some of the Italian knives turned in far worse performance than the Chinese knives and being run soft seemed to be part of the problem. Even the standard target range of "58-60HRC" we see for steels like M390 is just too soft to reach their potential.

While I have seen a wide range from Spyderco in hardness testing, they do seem to take better care and I have seen a bunch of it punch in the 60-62HRC range. That seems to help.

It might not be a surprise given the price difference but Shirogorov averages better than Spyderco with M390. I did see a test where a Shirogorov at 60.7HRC held about the same edge as one of the better Spydercos did at 62HRC. So clearly it's not just hardness but hardness can be an indicator. A general takeaway seems to be that we shouldn't expect greatness under 60HRC and that's where most of the production knives like to hang out.

I haven't seen any edge retention testing on Cheburkov but a lot of their steel comes with more specific HRC ranges. For instance, this m390 Pike is specifically listed at 61-62HRC and this m390 Leader is specifically listed at 62-63HRC. Of course, now we're talking like 2-3x the cost of a WE.
 
K.O.D. said:
While I agree that people do complain about chipping and rolling, sometimes I feel like this is less about the hardness and more about a burned edge.
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Totally agree, and I’ve gotten burned edges from many brands – both Asian and domestic.
 
I don't see any comments about Spyderco's asian knives made in Japan or the two Chinas. I edc a Gayle Bradley 1 which is a great knife for working around the shop, house, yard, etc. It was made in Taiwan. I have some older Spyderco knives that were partially or fully made in Japan which are top quality at a reasonable price.


 
Anyone ever owned a CMB knife? Brother in law was asking me about them and I’ve never heard of the brand.
 
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