What do you think of the Camillus talonite EDC? (pros and cons please)

Damn, you guys....I don't want to like talonite, but I am moments away from ordering one. No one's going to talk me out of it, are ya??
Barry H
 
Hey, Buzz!

I spent part of the weekend cutting up a bunch of cardboard and I used my Talonite EDC just to see what would happen. To my amazement, it held up and has not even "dulled" at least as far as I can tell. I actually did not think it would hold up that well with cardboard, due to cardboard's inherent nature---very "gritty" and full of impurities. So far, so good. I'll continue to push it and see what happens. Stay tuned.:cool: :rolleyes:
 
The 154CM-bladed EDC is not only a better buy, but it would win my choice as an EDC not taking price into consideration. Look back over this thread (an intelligent and most informative one, I might add) and let's look at what seems to emerge. My last mention of price is to say that the Talonite version costs 3-4 times as much, which may be of more or less importance, depending on one's disposable income. But what if we throw that consideration out?

As far as paper-cutting and cardboard-shredding, the opinions are mixed. Some say the Talonite is almost up to the steel blade in capability while others disagree. It seems the Talonite may be easier to sharpen and cut longer, but I'm doubtful, given the huge edge in hardness of the steel (yes, I know about Talonite carbides, but 154CM has them too and I find a diamond hone makes sharpening the steel blade a piece of cake as well.) Again, a mixed set of opinions with no clear winner.

Where Talonite does shine is in outstanding corrosion resistance, but 154CM is no slouch in that area given minimal care. Talonite would be a great blade to have in your tackle box, especially for salt-water fishing, or as part of your hunting gear, where you might be tired enough to forget to clean and oil the blade after skinning or cleaning game. Here the edge definitely goes to Talonite.

But what do you trade for this? You lose a huge amount of tensile and flexural strength, as well as hardness. Yes, some pointed out that the Talonite EDC is is a small EDC, not a big bruiser, like a Chinook. It wasn't designed for big jobs. Yet what will I find in my pocket if an emergency should strike? My EDC, of course. What happens in a natural disaster, a 9/11 type of an event, or a sudden emergency like a car crash in an urban or a rock slide out in the country? If I need to cut a steel cable, or hack a hole in a car door, or jam something into a rock face for an emergency hand-hold or foot hold? Yes, I know this would probably destroy the knife, but the 154CM might be able to do the job while the Talonite would surely fail! Talonite just isn't strong enough or hard enough.

Yeah, for me and EDC IS an Every-Day-Carry knife. Hopefully my life will never depend on using it, but if it does, I don't want one that will let me down.
 
I will reiterate: the only thing that can hold a candle to Talonite with respect to edge holding is D2, M2, and maybe BG42. ATS/154 loses very early on. Even 440V (production; can't speak for customs). I've tested them, head to head.

BSC, you have some good points, that may even be realistic to some degree. However, if you are carrying a folding EDC and really expect to be able to jam it in rock crevices to climb, or cut through cable, you are going to be sorely disappointed when the time comes. I'd put an EDC type Talonite blade up against the strength of a lock any day. Come on, be realistic here. We here are talking about specifically a folding knife, with a frame lock, a blade length of, what, 2 15/16 (on my sample), and a blade thickness of 0.1 inch. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
What I will concede is that even with just 154CM (as opposed to the more premium steels), you can get probably a minimum of 80% of the cutting performance of Talonite (for any steel), for about 60% of the cost. That really is a pretty good tradeoff when it comes to larger knives, where the cost of Talonite becomes prohibitively expensive for some of us. For example, I just took delivery of an Aurora from Rob Simonich. This is a big honker of a knife. I believe Talonite would have made an excellent Aurora blade, but the cost of the knife in Talonite would have broken the bank. So, the knife is steel, a stainless, and I believe I will get at least 95% of the performance of the same blade in Talonite (probably more, since the fine cutting that Talonite seems to excel at will not be a big factor in a knife this size). Incidentally, Rob has done some chopping blades in Talonite, and IIRC the results were VERY good. There was even an article in either TacKnives, or Blade, about it. However, when it comes to a small bladed production knife like the Camillus EDC, the cost becomes less of a factor, and the extra performance is, IMO, very much worth it. {Obviously all the numbers I'm throwing around here are WAG's, to say the least. :)
 
Hehehe... Comparing 154CM to Talonite is like comparing a hack saw to a chainsaw. When I say that Talonite cuts better on cardboard, I mean that it cuts better. “Almost up to the steel blade in capability” is far from the truth, IMHO. Talonite eats cardboard for breakfast, and will keep cutting long after 154CM has run out of gas. There is a noticeable difference in cutting ability between my 154CM and Talonite EDCs; and the difference is not subtle. There is something very special about Talonite, which adds a variable into the mix that just isn’t there when comparing various steels.

As far as hanging from a rock crevice with an EDC, or prying a car door open, that’s actually pretty absurd. You’d never got enough leverage or grip from such a small knife. And the torque induced would probably make the lock fail. The EDC is not a pry bar, no matter what steel you use. If you’re worried about survival situations, you may want to carry a dedicated “bug out bag”, with a fixed blade inside. Take a look around the Wilderness & Survival Skills for more information on bug out bags. We all want to believe that a good folder is as strong as a fixed blade, but it just isn’t so. Those who believe that folders are that strong end up losing fingers in the long run.

I would say that Talonite does have its weaknesses, but not in the scenarios you’ve mentioned. I probably wouldn’t want to use Talonite for making an axe or machete. I just can’t see using Talonite for chopping. But for small to medium sized cutting knives, Talonite is hard to beat... assuming that you can afford it.
 
The Big Brown Truck just delivered my Talonite EDC. It's my third EDC, (154 and Anniversary) and my first Talonite knife. The original EDC was my regular carry for several months, great design and no complaints on it's ability to hold an edge. I haven't given the Talonite knife a workout yet, but what I'm expecting is for it to perform like my Stellite Carson. What I mean by that is the knife will still cut through hard maple with ease for a very long time, even after the blade won't shave hair. It just never seems to get really dull. I did give the edge a couple of strokes on a 204 at 30º it shaves hair nicely, I'll do some whittling with it and see how it peroforms.

Thanks Darrel. ;)
 
This has been a great thread; I've learned a lot about Talonite here. It's not for MY EDC, for reasons I've already mentioned, but it sounds great for inclusion in my salmon and tuna gear or for small jobs hunting. I might pick up the Camillus Talonite for just that application.

But if I had to choose just one...but I don't, and neither do most of us. If Talonite rings your bell, go for it. And who says you have to carry only one knife?? That's what's fun about all this. We can agree to disagree and still learn a lot.

Rockspyder, true, I wasn't being very realistic, but when you trade off that much hardness and tensile strength, it IS a trade. You better get something worthwhile back.

Buzzbait, check the threads on "Cardboard Massacre" and I don't think they'll back you up. The talonite did well, but certainly no better than high quality steel. If you find "something special" there that you can't quantify, maybe it has little to do with the Talonite. But go for it, if you're convinced it's there.

I'm signing off on this one, but it's been fun.
 
Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
Rockspyder, true, I wasn't being very realistic, but when you trade off that much hardness and tensile strength, it IS a trade. You better get something worthwhile back.
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Agreed, see my post above (well, edit).

Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
Buzzbait, check the threads on "Cardboard Massacre" and I don't think they'll back you up. The talonite did well, but certainly no better than high quality steel. If you find "something special" there that you can't quantify, maybe it has little to do with the Talonite. But go for it, if you're convinced it's there.
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Just an opinion... if you're basing this statement on input from Cliff Stamp, I would take it with a grain of salt. I am impressed with his destructive testing, and have a high regard for his reviews. But when it comes to pure cutting performance, I find his reviews lacking. Way too much numbers and pure data, and not quite enough information. The something special to me is the cleanness of the cut with Talonite, whereas I ALWAYS get crap dragging with steels like ATS ann 154

Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
I'm signing off on this one, but it's been fun.
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No wait, come back! We're not finished with you yet. ;)

Seriously, your input has made me examine my ... um... er... fetish (?) :eek: ... for Talonite. :D I appreciate the discussion.
 
The "CardBoard Massacre"... was one of my threads. I did the testing on that one. The Talonite out-cut the others, and was even at a disadvantage. The Mini-Talon that was used was quite thick but small in size. I would have expected the larger knives with naturally better edge geometry and leverage to have done better. An ever closer test would be to pit a full-sized Talon against the Marbles and Dozier, which I’ll do when I get one. Read the first part of the thread. The test wasn’t anything scientific, but it was fun. :)

As for Cliff’s performance comments, I have no problem with them. They nicely take the different aspects of steel into account. I learned a lot from Cliff’s comments on edge geometry. What weren’t addressed, by Cliff, were the unique qualities of Talonite. Things like lubricity and such a vast difference in hardness of matrix vs. carbides. At least I don’t remember Cliff commenting on this.

Try to get your hands on a Talonite EDC and a 154CM EDC for an hour, and cut a ton of cardboard. The difference is quite noticeable. Odd, but noticeable. If you happen to live in New York State… drop by my house some time. I have both knives and a ton of cardboard.

I’m not gonna’ say that Talonite is 4 billion times better at cutting than a good steel bladed knife. It isn’t. It’s just a bit better in many ways. Whether the price is worth the difference, or not, is entirely up to our wallets and intended uses. People who use their knife for the occasional cutting task probably won’t notice any difference, except possibly the corrosion resistance. But people who cut a ton of cardboard or skin lots of deer will definitely notice the difference.

The 154CM or D2 EDC definitely gives the most bang for buck without a doubt. I do believe however, that the Talonite EDC brings the most bang, without regard for the buck.
 
Buzz wile I agree with you on Talonite vs 154cm, the same can not be said about D2. Taking corosion out of it I don't think talonite improvs on d2. In fact I think d2 is even a little better.
 
Originally posted by Buzzbait
As for Cliff’s performance comments, I have no problem with them. They nicely take the different aspects of steel into account. I learned a lot from Cliff’s comments on edge geometry. What weren’t addressed, by Cliff, were the unique qualities of Talonite. Things like lubricity and such a vast difference in hardness of matrix vs. carbides. At least I don’t remember Cliff commenting on this.
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Don't get me wrong. Cliff's tests are awesome. Sometimes the useful information seems to get lost in the noise, though.

He did do a test on some talonite edges, or at least one, at some point in time. You could probably still find the reviews on his web site. As I recall, he was not very impressed with them, overall. Something about the force required to make the cut increasing faster than with whatever steel he was comparing it to. But the one thing that didn't seem to jive was how the Talonite cut. Even when it feels not-so sharp, and/or the force to make a cut goes up, it still makes a cleaner cut than other blade materials. Which it the basic difference, I think. In materials like cardboard, leather, or wood, when other blade materials (including 440V as a specific example dear to me) have long since given up the ghost, Talonite is still in there making clean cuts. Other blade materials are starting to stray all over the place, or tearing, and what not. But, while Talonite may require a bit more force to complete the cut after you have used it a while, it will still make it cleanly. Which brings me to another point regarding it vs. steels in larger knives. Talonite can finesse a cut longer than other steels I have used (including M2, D2, 154CM, ATS34, and 440V, specifically). However, big knives aren't exactly known for finesse, I believe. So while I fully believe Talonite can do the big-knife job as good or better than steel, I don't believe the performance improvement in moving to Talonite would be as large.

Just my opinion, thrown out for more discussion. :)
 
Santa Cruz;
As I recall there used to be a pier going out into the water at the end of the boardwalk (Cocanut Grove end). I think if you gave some of those fish mongers on the pier a Talon in talonite and a Talon in 154CM and asked them to "put them to work" then I would bet the the talonine Talon would win hands down especially in all that salt water and brine.
Oh, and by the way, if you find an Omega Seamaster swishing back and forth in the surf then please send it back to me....a damn wave took it off of my wrist some 40 yrs. ago there and I bet it's still keeping good time.
:rolleyes: :cool:
 
D2 is awesome stuff. I love my Dozier like I love pizza.... and I could eat pizza for every meal of every day. Overall, I see D2 as being quite different from Talonite. From playing around, it seems like D2 goes south at a very slow rate. It’s just plain tough stuff. You can cut forever. The Talonite has this initial drop-off in performance, and then levels out for much of the duration. It seems downright unpredictable until you’ve gotten a feel for it.

The really big difference seems to be in the maintenance of the two blade materials. If I’m running with the Dozier, I can cut for a LONG time. But when it finally runs out of gas, I have to do a bit of resharpening. Not that this is bad; it’s just like many steels. The fact that it isn’t a total bear to sharpen is also a strong point for D2.

On the other hand, my approach to Talonite is much different. I just cut and cut with it, and live with that initial performance drop-off. Once the Talonite has run out of gas, it takes almost nothing to get the edge back. I mean almost nothing. Just a quick strop usually does the trick. At worst, 5 swipes on the SharpMaker white hones, and then a quick strop.

So I tend towards Talonite mostly for the maintenance issues. It’s a no-hassle blade material, which is very big for me. I personally don’t think it holds an edge like D2, but I can live with that. My sharpening skills are less than amazing, so the less I have to seriously sharpen, the better. The fact that I spend a lot of time outdoors just amplifies the need for easy maintenance. I need a blade material that field sharpens very easily. I’m just not good enough to whip out a bench stone and get my D2 back to stellar performance. Maybe someday I’ll be able to do that, but not today. I kind of think of Talonite as being an ultra-low maintenance BG-42 or 440C, if that makes any sense at all.

The fact that Talonite is extraordinarily corrosion resistant is a big bonus to me. I have a tendency to take frequent 5-day fishing trips into the Adirondacks. The weather there varies constantly from thunderstorms to high humidity to dry gorgeous days. The last day there is inevitably the gorgeous day, so I completely forget about my knives rusting on that last day. My pack and vest just sit in the back of the truck for a couple weeks afterward, decaying in the Hudson Valley humidity. I can’t tell you how many knives I’ve had rust terribly after that rest in the truck. It’s comforting to know that I don’t have to remember or even bother with the Talonite during my boring city weeks. My Dozier seems to fight off corrosion quite well, but I know I’d get stung in the long run.

All in all, I think that Talonite rocks. I don’t believe that it’s high performance tough like D2, but a better compromise for someone like me who cares little for knife maintenance. I prefer to do a quick and dirty resharpening than to toil over my SharpMaker after a job. Call me a knife weenie, and you may be right. I’m a happy guy with 420HC even, just because my feeble “bench stone and leather belt in the woods” method of sharpening works with 420HC for me.

I will note that I do believe in certain Talonite properties. It does seem to glide through certain cutting materials in a very special way. Don’t ask me why, but there you have it.

If my sharpening skills were honed like a pro, and corrosion was not an issue at all… I could easily grow to prefer D2. Or better yet, a good carbon steel like the 52100 on my Marbles. Both steels are simply extraordinary in my book.

After my full-sized Talon purchase in a month or so, I’ll be shopping for something bigger. Something in the Becker Companion sized range. I just need something I don’t have to baby during my more “pissed off and hacking at a log in the outdoors” kind of moods. It does happen sometimes when I’m out in the middle of nowhere and the day is miserable. Hiking in the Adirondacks is like that.

Hmmm…… Maybe I’m a man of extremes, whose needs are much different than most others. When I need stainless and slicing power, Talonite works well for me. But when the chips are down, I think that a tough-a$$ed carbon steel chopper will serve me well. Maybe I’m just not a stainless steel kind of guy. Maybe growing up around nature has shaped certain feelings about knife use that runs contrary to what most people need. This could be so.

Then again, maybe I just need therapy.
 
Buzz for the most part I agree with you. In fact I also really like Talonite, and for what you have stated it is perfect for. I for one just like d2 better, however they both have there place for me as well. Just one thing, As talonite is easy/veryeasy to touch up just wait until you get a chip in the edge. :) It can be a real bear. All in all they both are great steels, and I like them both. For me d2 seems to be a better choice as a every day carry, but can see your point and even agree with it. I carry talonite when I need it, alot in the spring when it is wet.
Oh, one more thing. since you like talonite keep an eye on S30V. As I had used it I couldn't help but think of how similar it is to talonite, performance wise.
 
Originally posted by db
Oh, one more thing. since you like talonite keep an eye on S30V. As I had used it I couldn't help but think of how similar it is to talonite, performance wise.
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Ooh, I like the sound of THAT! Seeing as how I just took delivery of an Aurora in S30V from Rob Simonich. Sweet.
 
It's so easy to be a prophet! Note the comments on S30V above.

Actually, it seems to be a very nice steel, one developed for knives for a change. Blade Magazine has an informative article on it in the latest issue. It won't replace true super steels (which are super hard to process) for extreme toughness or edge-holding, but it WILL give small operators without huge bucks for heat-treating equipment and special tooling a satisfactory alternative. That means better knives for us!

Interesting stuff and a potential workhorse material for the industry. By the way, when the "buzz-word" factor for S30V dies down, I wonder what the next fad blade material will be???
 
Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
It's so easy to be a prophet! Note the comments on S30V above.
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Bastid! :D

Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
Actually, it seems to be a very nice steel, one developed for knives for a change. Blade Magazine has an informative article on it in the latest issue. It won't replace true super steels (which are super hard to process) for extreme toughness or edge-holding, but it WILL give small operators without huge bucks for heat-treating equipment and special tooling a satisfactory alternative. That means better knives for us!
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Actually, S30V was pretty much an obvious choice for the Aurora, I think. Well, between that and A2 or D2. Rob and I discussed it a bit. I had originally wanted the Aurora in D2, and had settled on that for most of the time I was waiting for my name to come up on his waiting list. (Incidentally, I would pretty much have to admit D2 is my favorite steel. And to a large extent, I almost favor it even over Talonite, because it seems to cut so aggressively. For as long as it is sharp. But still the Talonite beats it out in the long run, for the reasons ... um.. db lists.) The problem with the D2 is the Aurora lends itself more to chopping. Conceiveably that could be a problem for D2. I thought about A2, but never mentioned it to Rob, IIRC. I was not sold on it because I want my Aurora to be my basic, all around doo everything outdoors knife. While I think I could take decent care of the A2, if S30V is as good as everyone, INCLUDING Cliff Stamp (who is as big a skeptic as you, BSC) says it is, why not go for it. Talonite might have been another choice, but was rejected for at least the magnitude of the cost. I dislike ATS&154 enough that it was not even a consideration for the Aurora... nevermind the brittleness. Soooo... out of A2, D2, and S30V, why not go for the next wonder steel? ;) Besides, Rob said it was good and I trust his opinion. After all, he is a well-respected knife maker.

Originally posted by Blade Santa Cruz
Interesting stuff and a potential workhorse material for the industry. By the way, when the "buzz-word" factor for S30V dies down, I wonder what the next fad blade material will be???
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Good question. Hopefully I'll be around to see it. Although in the past I have typically been slow on the uptake of new blades. S30V is the first steel that I have actually been on the front side of the curve in acquisitions. Talonite took me a looooong time, with everyone telling me the same thing I'm saying here. Especially after my experience with 440V. Looking at your profile, you should have been around for my 440V vs. staple incident. By the way.... registered since 1999, and only 52 posts?! Man of few words, eh? I guess wise men listen and learn, while fools run their mouths? ;) Anyway, if you don't remember or didn't see the above incident, do a search on the forums for keywords "staple" and "440V", with the poster being "outlaw_dogboy". That was me, at the time. It was a bit of a leap of trust in Rob to go with S30V, after 440V. But I have mellowed toward 440V since then. It has its place; it's just not the be all/end all any more than Talonite is (nor S30V I would assume).

Man, talk about digressing from the main thread topic..... :rolleyes:
 
Blade Santa Cruz said...

It's so easy to be a prophet! Note the comments on S30V above.
I don't clame to be a prophet. I have actually used S30v for about 2 months. For some of my thoughts on it do a dearch for S30V empressions. It is not a steel to end all, however for a stainless it is very good stuff. and as Buzz likes the ease of touching up the edge on talonite I think he will be happy if he tries S30v. At the least it just may be an option for him. I like him am not a big fan of stainless but S30 acts like a tool steel and I like it.
 
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