What does 'handmade' mean to you??

[jacqueeagonsr]

I know this is a topic that's as touchy as religion and politics. But, I've never seen anybody with authority beyond Webster's Dictionary that has defined it. What's BladeForums position on this subject?? What's yours?? I like Webster's.

hand-made adj. -made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills.

I'll throw down my gauntlet - it says 'manual' skills, not 'programming' skills. Mr gauntlet; my opinion - if a programmed CNC machine is used to make any part of a knife, that knife is not handmade. The maker must have 'hands on' control of any part of the knife, or 'hands on' control of any tool used to make a knife in order for that knife to be called 'handmade'.

This should start a lively discussion.

Custom made is a different discussion.

Regards,

 

[Will Leavitt]

Ohhhh noooooo

Errr I don't have a problem with someone using parts cut by a machine as long as they grind the bevels and do the fitting up and other assemblies by hand. Meaning using their hand to hold the part or turn the tool. There are situations where I could see a CNC being used such as face milling or "monkey work" but I think operations like drilling shouldn't be automated. I'm not really sure where I stand on a pantograph being used, mainly because I'm not 100% sure of their capabilities. I know some makers use them.

Mainly I know what I consider handmade, I know what my customers EXPECT from me and as long as we're honest with each other then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[go mike]

I agree that handmade means that you can use machines, as long as they are just spinning and the maker does all of the shaping.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

The maker must have 'hands on' control of any part of the knife, or 'hands on' control of any tool used to make a knife in order for that knife to be called 'handmade'.

So if one sends his blades out for HT , they are no longer hand made ?

After listening to many opinions on this , it is indeed a slippery slope , this whole classification thing.

Mainly I know what I consider handmade, I know what my customers EXPECT from me and as long as we're honest with each other then there shouldn't be a problem.

That says it all. excellent !

 

[gixxer]

I agree that handmade means that you can use machines, as long as they are just spinning and the maker does all of the shaping.

Ditto.

All "custom" means to me is that I am using customer specified materials and/or blade shape. Has nothing to do with the actual process.

 

[TennKnifeman]

It is my observation that usually the person most interested in defining what is handmade versus what is not handmade is a knifemaker who thinks his knives are more handmade than the other person's knives.

Handmade means what you want it to mean.

W. R. Case & Sons Cutlery in their 1970's advertising listed the high number of hand operations of their knives--and upon going to the factory discovered that hand operation mean lifting a piece of metal from one jig and placing it into another -- by hand.

Stock removal makers of the 70's used to chastise Randall knives because more than one person put the knives together, even those the blades were forged.

I've heard hand forgers claim their knives were more handmade than stock removal because they forge their blades.

I once sat in a meeting of knife makers/editors/businessmen at the Knifemakers Guild show to discuss promoting handmade knives and the first order of business was to define handmade knives. We never got beyond the first question for the entire meeting.

To define it is a bottomless pit.

In an interview with Bob Loveless he commented when the Guild was in their brouhaha over machined parts (a move with nearly destroyed it and in the end accomplished little), that a knifemaker should make his knife any way he wants to, use what parts he wants to, etc. "The marketplace will sort them out soon enough!" he said.

The more a knifemaker worries about the knives that HE makes instead of worrying about the knives the other knifemaker is making, the better HIS knives will be.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I say that if you use any tool other than your hand, it isn't hand made. That is why the worlds finest knives are made of clay, a material than can be formed entirely with the hands. You folks using a hammer, anvil or grinder are all cheating. That it results in a better product than my clay knives means nothing. People want to buy them because they know they were made entirely 100% by hand. Except for the clay itself, which was made by Hasbro.


In all seriousness, I think that Bruce hit it on the head.

 

[T. Hendrickson]

So if one sends his blades out for HT , they are no longer hand made ?

I think the knife is still entirely handmade, but I don't believe said maker can claim sole authorship.

I agree with most here, if the maker has full control over any processes involved in the knife, it is handmade. The maker can use whatever materials availble in whatever size, as long as the material isn't pre-fabricated or shaped.

(e.g. barstock and handle slabs are ok, imho. This might sound somewhat contradictory, but you've got to be realistic.)

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

I think the knife is still entirely handmade, but I don't believe said maker can claim sole authorship.

under that condition , unless you physically made the steel , nobody can claim sole authorship

(e.g. barstock and handle slabs are ok, imho. This might sound somewhat contradictory, but you've got to be realistic.)

indeed contradictory. If the scale material was stablilized outside the shop , how does that differ from HT ?



slippery slope , when we try to "label" things.

 

[Greg Obach]

i can claim sole authorship... hahaha...

to me... hand made is a knife made in a shop by a dude using his tools... even cnc... ( as much as i dislike robot knives :barf: )

soon as the process ( or most of it ) is automated.. then thats something else than hand made..


sole authorship is just a gimmick as far as i'm concerned..

under that condition , unless you physically made the steel , nobody can claim sole authorship

indeed contradictory. If the scale material was stablilized outside the shop , how does that differ from HT ?



slippery slope , when we try to "label" things.

 

[T. Hendrickson]

under that condition , unless you physically made the steel , nobody can claim sole authorship

indeed contradictory. If the scale material was stablilized outside the shop , how does that differ from HT ?



slippery slope , when we try to "label" things.

True enough, I'll concede. I guess it's all where you draw the line.

I'll put it this way: To me, sole authorship means that you take all the raw materials and make all modifications and construction necessary by yourself.

However, I think sole authorship is overrated. While I consider myself sole author of my knives, I don't think it's necessarilly the best thing. For example, Paul Bos could do a much better heat treat than me. Mine does the job, however, and part of the fun for me is doing everything myself.

You folks who send out blades for whatever reason (ultimate performance, economical sense) deserve props for those reasons. It's a matter of individual values.

 

[A C Richards]

I agree that hand made is made by me. What machines I use are between me and my customer. So long as I disclose my methods the customer can determine if they want a knife made with the tools I use. I have a power hammer and press, I use a mill to slot and face my guard material, I grind my blades on a disc freehand etc etc etc. Any of these can be considered cheating but most are readily accepted in the craft.

 

[WhitleyStu]

Hand made can mean the parts come from grinding, CNC mill, lathe, waterjet, or EDM. But the true "hand made" part comes in the fitting of the parts. Production knives have a variable in the fit, but the true hand made are fitted my the knife maker to a much higher standard thus the higher quality and price increase...

 

[SShepherd]

I agree that hand made is made by me. What machines I use are between me and my customer. So long as I disclose my methods the customer can determine if they want a knife made with the tools I use. I have a power hammer and press, I use a mill to slot and face my guard material, I grind my blades on a disc freehand etc etc etc. Any of these can be considered cheating but most are readily accepted in the craft.

FRACKING BINGO:thumbup: ..BUT...you have to atleast grind the darn blade yourself

it's funny, Japanese swords worth tens of thousands of dollars are not even close to sole authorship--hell, the bladesmith doesn't even finish the blade to having an edge
Everything else is done by another artist. Everyone knows this..and it's ok.

 

[deloid]

My definition of handmade is personal and tighter in range than most folks.

I won't buy any craft/art that has technology that interferes with a personal touch, variation or a degree of 'human' qualities. I need to sense the artists touch to enjoy a piece so I approach my arts the same way.

For instance, I will not buy a lithograph of a work of art. I also won't buy any contemporary art unless I either know or like the artist.

My perspective on this subject has no rigid rules. I love the work of Tai Goo but I also love the work that Chuck Burrows does in concert with another artist. I generally don't like stock reduction unless it is used together with forging.

I really don't like shiny perfection that so many strive for.

My point is that each person will have their own level of appreciation of a knife and the manner in which it was made. Many care little about how it was made but concern themselves with the look or the function or the collectable nature of the beast.

On this matter there is no right or wrong ...only personal taste.

It's an issue that shouldn't even come up as a topic but for some odd reason refuses to fade.

As an aside, my discussion does not address outright fraud or deceit. This is a different subject.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Hand made can mean the parts come from grinding, CNC mill, lathe, waterjet, or EDM. But the true "hand made" part comes in the fitting of the parts. Production knives have a variable in the fit, but the true hand made are fitted my the knife maker to a much higher standard thus the higher quality and price increase...

In the Gun buisness this is called hand fit. Not hand made.

 

[Michael Lovett]

You said your self, this is as touchy as religion and politics. So why in heck ask it once again. Do a search. This has been discussed to death for years here. All it ever accomplishes is pissing a lot of Makers and Collectors off.

Bob Loveless once again, gets it right!
Thanks Bruce!

M. Lovett
Maker
The Loveless Connection Knives

(Still Hand Made by MY definition) Other opinions may vary!

 

[fitzo]

.....On this matter there is no right or wrong ...only personal taste. ......

It seems to be a common problem with the human ego, this difficulty to admit that there are some choices that are simply personal preference, and not matters of better or worse, superior or lesser, right or wrong.

 

[Redrummd]

Very interesting thread.... I just like working with stone but I modify most knives construction in the process of doing the stonework. I never really claim to be a knifemaker even though I have that showing as part of my avatar.....

I will say that I do all of the cutting and polishing of the stone by hand even though I use grinders, sanders, polishers and files.

 

[Michael Lovett]

I use to shape Stone---Knives by hand, but I learned that my fingers wore out a lot faster than a file or grinder! Seem that stone and Knife steel is harder than finger tips.
Go figure.. LOL

MIke