What does 'handmade' mean to you??

[rayban]

The more a knifemaker worries about the knives that HE makes instead of worrying about the knives the other knifemaker is making, the better HIS knives will be.

As an "outsider", because I am not a knifemaker, I find this the most sensible comment made on this topic.

 

[Tai Goo]

Here's what it means to me...

It means either holding the work or the tool in my hands…

Outside of that,... I don't like any machine marks on my finished work. However, I do use process marks from the hand work with hand tools and like to let the hand work show,… not just randomly but well thought out and intentionally. I like to rely as much as possible on myself rather than a lot of fancy equipment which also helps me connect with the work in a more personal way. I do as much freehand with hand tools as I can, don’t even like jigs or spring dies.

I also like my eyes, and do mostly eyeball work.

To me the whole thing is more "about the person" than anything else...

Not that any of this is better or worse, just the way I like to work. I'll keep on with it until my hands give out on me,... and then maybe consider buying some new power tools as a last resort.

I do think there is a big difference between handmade primarily with hand tools,... and handmade primarily with power tools.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

The knives I make are made by my hand; I know this by looking at my hands.

My hands are covered by a roadmap that highlights my efforts in the smithy.

The mangled thumb, that got a little to close to the belt.

A weird looking thumb nail that was grabbed by a slow turning carbide cutter, causing some loud swearing.

A few finger nails that never grew in straight after contact with one spinning machine or another.

Then there are those nasty burn marks from picking up hot steel.

Any time I start pondering whether my knives are made by hand, I only have to look as far as my hands. One look and I am convinced.

People that make knives by machine surely cannot have hands that look like these.

All this probable comes from burning my best shoe laces off my boots, yesterday, with a well placed glob of flaming borax.

Fred

 

[Rob!]

I think it's kind of like "How old is Old"???

When I was in my teens, old people would be lamenting their 30th birthday. When I got to 30, old people actually cared about their pension plan and got annual prostate checkups.

These days, I'm kind of seeing Old people as those of any age that have just given up.

I made my first knife with a hacksaw, a couple files and a mountain of sandpaper. You know what I considered handmade then.

Now, I'm pretty sure power tools are OK, and after having tried (and abandoned) a few simple jigs, I have some respect for guys who can make those work too.

There are some things that save some time without detracting any meaningful craftsmanship - Laser blanking would be an example.

From there it gets to be a bit of a slippery slope. Is it reasonable to mill a guard slot? Sure! But I'm more impressed by the guy who fits it well with a file.

Maybe I could sum up my current view this way.

Rob!

 

[Raymond Richard]

So what would you call a knife if all the shaping was done with your teeth?

I haven't been in the business as long as some but when "handmade" is mentioned the first person that comes to mind is Mister Goo.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

All this probable comes from burning my best shoe laces off my boots, yesterday, with a well placed glob of flaming borax.

Fred

Your best shoe laces?

 

[Tai Goo]

Thanks Ray! That's one of the nicest things anyone has every said about me.

Another one that really touches me is when folks that say my work has a very natural organic look, as though my knives were formed by nature. Some have asked how I do that?... Part of it has to do with all the hand/eye work that goes into them, letting it show, and the freedom hand tools allow...

It's not for everyone, but I like it!

 

[custommachineman]

This is a wonderful subject and in my opinion hand made would have to be between the one making the item and the one buying it. The degree of hand madeness could range from the maker digging up his own ore and growing his own trees for handle wood and butchering his own cows for sheath leather ,ECT. To the maker just putting the p remade pieces together.
But hand madeness can never really be achieved to the maximum because the maker cannot bring the into being from nothingness. We will have to leave the true hand forming to God because no human can truly create something from nothing.

I dont really classify anything as hand made. Although I use the term for some of the things I make because of its value to people when buying art. I really classify my items as custom made because they are made by me one at a time and to what the customer wants or what I want and they are all unique to some degree.

I was thinking about the Japanese sword makers with the job being done by many artists. This is honorable because it allows each maker to specialize in one field and come out with a possibly more quality product. A smith can be a good hand engraver but he will probably never be as good as someone who concentrates all his energy into just engraving. Hand made does not mean that it cant be formed by many sets of hands.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

I don't care about what the term handmade means till someone start using it as an excuse to be a jerk or an elitist. Tai is probably the best example of people who have this ethic as I have never heard him use it against anyone else. To the exact letter of the OP, it seems if you used a drill press vise you have stopped having hands on control. After all whats the difference between a piece of metal clamped in a drill and one clamped in a mill. Either is taking the piece and the level of precision you are achieving out of your hands and using a machine to get "more repeatable and consistent" results. Machinists started using cnc to do what they could do my hand and crank wheels faster and more consistent. Many folder makers have done the same to make sure there folders are all the exact same size and dimensions. I think arguing against this type of progress is silly. Yet many people who do not use such means seam to feel cheated since there way was "harder" or more "artistic/true to the art". I think that to make a personal choice to do things the way you feel is right is both valid and could be a real boost to ones art. To use it to put down another persons work because they did not arrive at the same conclusion as you is petty. Not to mention we are basically arguing semantics. As many have said, be honest about what you do and your customers will decide for themselves.

 

[James_Terrio]

It means either holding the work or the tool in my hands… I also like my eyes, and do mostly eyeball work.

I concur, but I'm not a fanatic about it. (not saying anyone else is, either!)
Milling guard slots is referred to in my shop as "cheating," but that may well be because I just don't have a mill! I do take a certain amount of satisfaction in hand-fitting, but I do use straight edges, file-guides, machinist's square etc to check myself. So that's not completely by eye, either. If the piece fits very well, the only difference is in cost and any romantic notions the maker/customer may or may not have.

...it seems if you used a drill press vise you have stopped having hands on control...

Not really. At least in my case, I still measure, centerpunch, align the work to the drill, etc. by hand. NO I'm not going to hold the piece in my hand when drilling! And I prefer the holes to be straight so holding the drill isn't an option either. I know, I'm splitting hairs just for the sake of conversation. No offense meant.

This is a wonderful subject and in my opinion, "hand-made" would have to be between the one making the item and the one buying it.

Not to mention we are basically arguing semantics. As many have said, be honest about what you do and your customers will decide for themselves.

That seems to be the general consensus, and I agree. Many of the great makers around here have websites, shop tours, even tutorials explaining how and why they do what they do. I don't know of anyone one who misleads his clients as to materials or processes. I suspect if one did, he wouldn't be around long. Buyers today are remarkably well-informed. This is great for both customers and makers. The end result is generally better knives and happier customers.

Should we continue with "What is Custom?" or just let that particular sleeping dog lie awhile?

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Your best shoe laces?

I should have put a little more in the way of explanation in my post.

By best shoe laces, I mean the only ones I have that have not been knotted in numerous places to mend the previous burned out areas, also caused by flying flux.

I found a pair of spats to wear, don't laugh. They worked for a while until the fire consumed them too.
My wife said I looked a little over dressed for forging.

I have gone to dry welding, these days, just to save my cloths.
Fred

 

[sunshadow]

HandMade is a marketing concept. It had no relevance until the "Arts and Crafts movement" that was a reaction to the industrial revolution. Everything that comes from my shop is "hand made" by the definitions discussed here, I have even taken sole authorship to the point of making my own steel.
The only time you will find "HandMade" discussed is when someone is trying to find a pedestal to place thier work on when compared to their neighbor's work. To me custom work is when there is a discussion with the custom-er out of which comes a design concept or specification and the work is then made to the specs agreed on with the customer, usually as a piece that is unique to that order. Generally I will identify the work on the table as "my work" and if I am asked if it is hand made I will state that "these hands made it so I guess so" If I do a batch of something, that is a production piece, even though my hands are intimately aquainted with every square millimeter of it's surface. I will customize to a customer spec if people are interested. The fact that my grinds and angles aren't perfectly industrially square attests to the fact that there was a fair amount of manual work involved (and that I'm not ready for a Journeyman test )
The quality of my work should speak for itself, and as it improves it gains a stronger voice.

-Page

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Thanks Ray! That's one of the nicest things anyone has every said about me.

Another one that really touches me is when folks that say my work has a very natural organic look, as though my knives were formed by nature. Some have asked how I do that?... Part of it has to do with all the hand/eye work that goes into them, letting it show, and the freedom hand tools allow...

It's not for everyone, but I like it!

I appreciate what you accomplish with hand tools; but to say hand tools, relative to machine tools, in some way, allow a maker more freedom to express him or herself, doesn't ring true.
Freedom of expression comes from within; how it is accomplished, is up to the individual maker.

One maker could have a building full of fine machinery and only be able to turn out mediocre work; while another maker with only a file, turns out a masterpiece.
These situations can have an opposite outcome, by changing the person using the tools.

I have no doubt that if you had chosen to use power over hand tools, you would have been just as accomplished a maker.

There are 40 files in my drawer and dreams of a new machine in my head.

Fred

 

[Tai Goo]

I appreciate what you accomplish with hand tools; but to say hand tools, relative to machine tools, in some way, allow a maker more freedom to express him or herself, doesn't ring true.
Freedom of expression comes from within; how it is accomplished, is up to the individual maker.

One maker could have a building full of fine machinery and only be able to turn out mediocre work; while another maker with only a file, turns out a masterpiece.
These situations can have an opposite outcome, by changing the person using the tools.

I have no doubt that if you had chosen to use power over hand tools, you would have been just as accomplished a maker.

There are 40 files in my drawer and dreams of a new machine in my head.

Fred

Fred, I had an 1800 square foot shop full of all kinds of power tools. I worked that way for over 15 years. Some people liked the work I did in that shop better than the work I'm doing now. However, I wasn't happy. I'm sure it's just a personal thing, but I did find it limiting in some ways, and do feel a greater freedom of expression now. Part of it has to do with the restrictions of the power tools I had. For examples, once I laid a piece of steel against a 4 by 7 inch flat die or a 2 inch wide belt I was committed to the surface area of the tool. Bit's and jigs are a lot the same. There aren’t wheels and bits that can modulate, change there radius and dimensions fluidly and at will. I began to design knives and work in a way to suit the equipment that I had. The power tools did make some things faster and easier, but for me and the type of work I really wanted to do,… they had definite limitations. I ended up selling that shop and the vast majority of power tools. I do better business now and am much happier,... and feel more free.

So, the statment may not ring true for someone else, but it did ring true for me. So, I agree, it's up to the individual maker, and was speaking only for myself... I thought that was clear.

 

[birdog4]

Now lets stop picking the fly crap outta the pepper. You all know handmade means pounding them bevels with a stone over a pinecone fire and then sanding smooth down at the crick under a waterfall. (BOG)

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Fred, I had an 1800 square foot shop full of all kinds of power tools. I worked that way for over 15 years. Some people liked the work I did in that shop better than the work I'm doing now. However, I wasn't happy. I'm sure it's just a personal thing, but I did find it limiting in some ways, and do feel a greater freedom of expression now. Part of it has to do with the restrictions of the power tools I had. For examples, once I laid a piece of steel against a 4 by 7 inch flat die or a 2 inch wide belt I was committed to the surface area of the tool. Bit's and jigs are a lot the same. There aren’t wheels and bits that can modulate, change there radius and dimensions fluidly and at will. I began to design knives and work in a way to suit the equipment that I had. The power tools did make some things faster and easier, but for me and the type of work I really wanted to do,… they had definite limitations. I ended up selling that shop and the vast majority of power tools. I do better business now and am much happier,... and feel more free.

So, the statment may not ring true for someone else, but it did ring true for me. So, I agree, it's up to the individual maker, and was speaking only for myself... I thought that was clear.

I understood what you said and believe also that knife making without hand tools is limiting.
But to those people who are just starting out and have not yet developed their own style and following; I say to them: its not the tools being used, that restricts ones creativity its the creative process that takes place in ones mind that drives the process.
No one should think they can't be as creative with a single hand rasp as they can with a 5hp belt grinder.
I am happier deer hunting with a muzzle loader than with an auto loader, but both of them do the job. Whatever makes you happy is the choice of the individual.

Keep up the great work, Fred

 

[Tai Goo]

Let me try and simplify what I'm saying,... speaking strictly for myself. For me, it was easier to do the type of work I really wanted to do and achieve the type of aesthetics I was looking for by getting away from the power tools. I discovered that the process or processes and tooling I used had definite effects on the outcome of the finished products.

However, as I learn more, become more disciplined and as time goes by, things could change again... I'll leave that open for now and don't want to be trapped or stuck into a mold either way. I started off with a very simple shop set up, with limited power tooling, then things changed and I decided to start collecting power tools,… Then I reached a point that I didn’t feel that the power tools were helping and possibly restricting me so I decided to go back to a more basic shop set up. It’s been over 12 years now, and the hands and eyes are getting older and worn out, like any “tools”. So, I may reach another point in the future where investing in some power tools and equipment may be the only logical choice if I wish to continue,... and my goals and preferences may change again. I’ll have to say though, that I have learned a lot by relying mostly on hand tools, and now have a better idea of what types of power tools might really help down the road. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to go back to a point in past time though, or ever do things the same as I did 20 years ago. It’s been a cyclic and linear journey both at the same time...

It’s all been good!

 

[Tai Goo]

I agree again Fred. It's all very much up to the individual!

One of the problems we face in these discussions is that we all come to this craft from different backgrounds and perspectives,... and we can't ever assume that what is right for us at what ever point we are at in the craft, is right for anyone other than ourselves. No two people are the same.

 

[SAR]

This was my response to this question couple of years back......it still works for me.

This thread has some very interesting reading, I posted way back in the start. I have someting else to add, it may only be relevant to me.

I thought about joining this group or that group well after some careful thought this is what I came up with.

After over 16 years in the armed force's being held to standards both legally and morally. I think whatever ones opinions of what constitutes handmade, custom, mid-tech, production forged , stock, removal etc etc blah blah and blah. If it works for you and you can look yourself in the mirror everyday then more power to you. I will build what I like but the bottom line is honesty and call it what I like.

Not sure if that makes sense, it does to me......if you keep your family fed, housed, provide and doing it legally, then no one else's opinion matters.

Good thread Mr LaBella:jdsmokin:

Spencer

 

[SAR]

So what would you call a knife if all the shaping was done with your teeth?

I haven't been in the business as long as some but when "handmade" is mentioned the first person that comes to mind is Mister Goo.

Wait Ray I think Tai does have a belt grinder correct?


When I think "Handmade" it would be "Wolfgang L, Bill Tuch, Tim Herman etc these guys work files and sandpaper etc....just the drill press

Spencer