What does 'handmade' mean to you??

jacqueeagonsr said:
if a programmed CNC machine is used to make any part of a knife, that knife is not handmade.
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Do screws and pivots that were store bought also count? What if they bought handmade parts from another outfit like Pop's? What about kydex eyelets or brass rivets on sheaths? What about kydex itself? What do we do about synthetic handle materials that are made on machinery or steel that's rolled out of the mill? Pin stock and tubing are made on machines and I doubt they are done by hand anywhere, cord for wrapping is also an automated manufacturing process. Epoxies are manufactured and packaged on automatic assembly lines...

I think that this is a dangerous way to define "handmade". Folks can call my knives whatever they want, I just call them Cap Hayes Knives.
 
jacqueeagonsr said:
I know this is a topic that's as touchy as religion and politics. But, I've never seen anybody with authority beyond Webster's Dictionary that has defined it. What's BladeForums position on this subject?? What's yours?? I like Webster's.

hand-made adj. -made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills.

I'll throw down my gauntlet - it says 'manual' skills, not 'programming' skills. Mr gauntlet; my opinion - if a programmed CNC machine is used to make any part of a knife, that knife is not handmade. The maker must have 'hands on' control of any part of the knife, or 'hands on' control of any tool used to make a knife in order for that knife to be called 'handmade'.

This should start a lively discussion.

Custom made is a different discussion.

Regards,
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I have brought this up before with good responses from some that argue that parts of the knife could still very well be made by hand even if other parts are not. I would imagine this term I believe Ken Onion started, "mid tech" applies to all customs by some definitions. For example, although you cut out the blade blank for a knife or whether you are using a contracted outside third party service, or even if you had all your blades and your liners and locks and any other small parts cut outside at a third party service, or did them yourself using a programmed robot there would still be just pilot holes in them marking where the actual holes are needing to be drilled to the proper sizes. There would still be fine tuning that can only be done by hand. Threading holes would be something most likely done by your hands or a tap matic on your manually operated drill press. Final finishing to flush all the parts and then buffing are hand work.

Then there are the small items. Pins and hardware like screws would have to be used and if you cut your own pin stock or shorten factory made screws that are considered by those wanting to shoot down the hand made idea then those would have to be made by your hands also and round bar would have to be threaded and turned into screws by your hands as well to be sole authorship or 'handmade' by the hard core for the definition. What happens often times with screws is they are embellished or colored, sometimes fine file work is done to them as well as thumb studs or thumb discs to open the blades but all the parts are actually bought pre-made until the maker embellishes them to make them his own. I would have to say that if a screw is bought in bulk in 1/2" lengths and just shortened as needed to the lengths your project requires that this qualifies in all cases as being hand worked parts but others would argue, 'you didn't make the screw' so therefore its not a handmade folder.

Another arguement is this, so you bought G10, or Micarta, titanium or stainless in a sheet and cut it out on your bandsaw and then drilled it yourself and did the same for the stand offs, the blade, the other parts including your own design in a pocket clip it still doesn't mean it was all done by you. You didn't make the titanium and flatten it after digging it out of the ground. You didn't make the screws, or the bar stock, pin stock or anything else for the blades, and for that matter you didn't make the drill press, the drills, the band saw or the stuff you used to cut them out or the machinery used to dig the ore to begin with so therefore the whole premise that its handmade at all is for naught! Can't be done end of story!

Anyway, not that I agree with everything there but these are some of the responses I got speaking to folks about it. Hows that for lively? :eek:

STR
 
If you had to make the pin material, handle material, screws, standoffs, make your own steel bars, pocket clips, etc.. all by hand in shop, How many knives would you be able to produce? You might spend more time making the knife's hardware instead of making knives. I had no idea that there was this underlying question.

-frank
 
handmade to me means that I lose almost all interest in the knife described. I loathe the term when it has no description of the actual process or tooling. Sunshadow said it about as well as I could hope. Same goes for a 'custom' knife that is ready to ship right now, and a dozen pics of the same model with different scales is on the website. That's not a custom, that's a variant made before a customer initiates contact.

I like knives from production to one man shop output constructed with varying levels of hand/power tool use. I was never sold on any of them by being 'hand made' Since the definition is what 'you' want it to be, then there is no definition, and the factory worker in China putting the screws in a $5 gas station special is constructing a hand made knife.

'Hand made' has no bearing on quality or value, and is not a descriptor of the process in any meaningful way. It describes nothing but the desire to make the item more appealing through ad copy.
 
panch0 said:
If you had to make the pin material, handle material, screws, standoffs, make your own steel bars, pocket clips, etc.. all by hand in shop, How many knives would you be able to produce? You might spend more time making the knife's hardware instead of making knives. I had no idea that there was this underlying question.

-frank
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Only with some apparently and only in argument for how if we are going to get nit picky we can also take into consideration these things. Screws and pin stock like sheet steel and titanium, G10, Micarta, Carbon Fiber and other things we all use are fortunately considered 'raw materials' by even the Guild so I wouldn't put much substance in the argument. I just brought it up since it was brought up to me in discussions when I brought up this topic over a year ago.

STR
 
STR said:
Only with some apparently and only in argument for how if we are going to get nit picky we can also take into consideration these things. Screws and pin stock like sheet steel and titanium, G10, Micarta, Carbon Fiber and other things we all use are fortunately considered 'raw materials' by even the Guild so I wouldn't put much substance in the argument. I just brought it up since it was brought up to me in discussions when I brought up this topic over a year ago.

STR
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I guess I understand a little better now. Thanks.

-frank
 
SAR said:
Wait Ray I think Tai does have a belt grinder correct?


When I think "Handmade" it would be "Wolfgang L, Bill Tuch, Tim Herman etc these guys work files and sandpaper etc....just the drill press

Spencer
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No, I got rid of the belt grinders in favor of an abrasive wheel type bench grinder which suits my working style better. I mostly use it for de-burring, spark testing and touching up profiles etc., don't use it on any of the flats or bevels. I'm not unplugged or a complete purist by any means, but do the work, "primarily" by hand with hand tools. I personally prefer the "limited" power tool shop set up right now,... Even I couldn't give up the bench grinder, propane and pistol drill... I guess I don't really fit any of the extremes. :)
 
SAR said:
Wait Ray I think Tai does have a belt grinder correct?


When I think "Handmade" it would be "Wolfgang L, Bill Tuch, Tim Herman etc these guys work files and sandpaper etc....just the drill press

Spencer
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Spencer, I never heard the rumor that Tai has a belt grinder. I knew about the stone wheel on the electric bench grinder.

just a drill press, There's a lot of different applications that can be done with a drill press that are knife related that don't involve drilling holes. That's one multifunctional tool. I'd be lost without mine.
 
If I were to power tool up again, I'd do it a lot different than the last time,... to suit my current working style and preferences... try to get the right tools for the jobs and not over kill or under kill. Get the tools to fit the work not the other way around.

...But, not that power tools negate "handmade".

Next time around I'd probably go for a very small air hammer, like that Anyang Sam was talking about, and some hand held grinders... along with other stuff I have. I do also use a small ban saw for cutting up wood now... around and around it goes and where it stops nobody knows! :)
 
The first time I power tooled up, it really did fit where my head was at and the type of work I thought I wanted to do at the time. However,… people change… at least I did! Anyway, as the story goes, even though I changed, I still felt obligated to use the shop, tools, and recognition I had, and “conform” to it. After all, it took a lot of time, energy and money to get to all that! It became a trap for me. When I started working in the yard behind the shop with a charcoal forge, pump bellows and rocks, I’m sure most folks thought I flipped my wig! Then, when I sold the shop and tools, I’m sure they were convinced I was completely nuts… But, between you and I, I wouldn’t change it for anything. I’ve learned so much between then and now, it was totally worth it!… However, I see change as inevitable (at least with my nature and reality) and will continue to try and go with the flow, rather than against it… and grow. For me, the worst thing is to get pinned, bored or stuck in a rut…

“Sometimes the only way OUT,… is IN!”
“To KNOW something, is good. To DO something, is god!”
Guru Pitka, AKA the "Love Guru". :)
 
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Hey why we are on the subject I was thinking of starting a thread in the customs area about the catchy term "Forged to Finish"?

Tai I too would do things different if I could,

Ray I have about 1000.00 into my drill press a Clausing 15" VS I would cry and quit if it left my shop.


Spencer
 
Knife making is a most diverse subject, when it comes too the approach, tools, style and even the appeciation of the individual. Whether he be a collector, maker or the everyday user; there are many different views.

I find it stimulating.

Fred
 
James_Terrio said:
Not really. At least in my case, I still measure, centerpunch, align the work to the drill, etc. by hand. NO I'm not going to hold the piece in my hand when drilling! And I prefer the holes to be straight so holding the drill isn't an option either. I know, I'm splitting hairs just for the sake of conversation. No offense meant.
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But wouldn't you do the same things before placing it in a mill? I wouldn't mill out a guard or anything else without making sure everything was properly measured and marked. I agree that a drill press is a good way to get straight holes but that's my point. We use the machines for the advantage they give us. Just because one machine may offer more advantage to say it is in a different category or "using a machine" seems kind of silly to me. No offense taken or meant of course. I also want to say my last post was in no way implying the OP was taking the offensive stance I mentioned.
 
Here's another thought, though maybe a bit off topic. There must be some kind of "legal definition" of "handmade" used in industry to protect consumers against fraud. I'm not qualified to answer this, but maybe there are some lawyers reading this that could.

However, (don't quote me on this), but I vaguely remember something about, at least 10 percent of the work (actually done to the work itself and reflected in the finished work itself), has to be done by hand, from one of my "business of art" studies. I also assumed that it meant either holding the work or the tool by hand,... don't really know though. ???
 
i think that alot of it is to do with design and the intent of the maker, for example, if a maker machines a single piece for you, say a one pice integral may need some milling, or a folder where the pivot and handles are milled and turned then i still thinkthis is handmade, even if there is no direct physical input from the maker. The problem comes when batches of 10 or 20 components are being made at once, then each knife becomes a little less individual.

in short though, for something to be hand made, you either have to hold it to the machine or the machine to it.
 
jacqueeagonsr said:
I know this is a topic that's as touchy as religion and politics. But, I've never seen anybody with authority beyond Webster's Dictionary that has defined it. - - -

hand-made adj. -made by hand, not by machine; made by a process requiring manual skills.

I'll throw down my gauntlet - it says 'manual' skills, not 'programming' skills. Mr gauntlet; my opinion - if a programmed CNC machine is used to make any part of a knife, that knife is not handmade. The maker must have 'hands on' control of any part of the knife, or 'hands on' control of any tool used to make a knife in order for that knife to be called 'handmade'.

- - - - - Regards,
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I knew I was opening a can of worms when I brought this subject up again. As Mr. Bruce Voyles has pointed out, this subject has been discussed ad nauseam for the last 30-40 years. But, it needs to be brought out of the closet once in a while so new makers can see where the community stands. I've only been to a few 'real' knife shows. I think we only have one a year in my area and that's when Bruce Voyles brings his show to town. The only other time I get to see an occasional knifemaker in person are the few that attend local gun shows. There is one local maker, J.L. Hollett, who shows up every once in a while with an inventory of 10-15 'handmade' knives. If a maker is any good, his inventory is usually very small. But, there is one guy that shows up with an inventory of 100-125 knives and claims they are 'handmade'. Every hunter is exactly the same as every other hunter. Likewise, skinners or bowies. I know in my heart, this guy has, at best, a programmed CNC mill that cranks out his blades. He may even be buying 'kit' blades and just slaps the handle on them. Yet, he stays in business because the majority of folks attending gun shows are not real knife affectionados. They're just good ole' boys who would like to own a knife a bit nicer than a great Buck. I hate seeing them taken advantage of. But, there's no regulation that stops this guy from calling his knives 'handmade'.

So, I'll stand by my definition. "The maker must have 'hands on' control of any part of the knife, or 'hands on' control of any tool used to make a knife in order for that knife to be called 'handmade'. " A maker does not need to smelt the iron, skin and tan the hide, or chop down the tree. The maker just needs to turn raw material (which IMHO includes pins, nuts and bolts, etc) into a knife without watching a programmed machine do the work. The maker must have 'hands on' control of the knife or the tool.

My many thanks to all contributors. Let's keep our dreams alive.
 
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Dustin Golat said:
But wouldn't you do the same things before placing it in a mill?
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Fair enough! I agree it's a touchy subject, I was kind of just thinking out loud.

hardheart said:
...(handmade) describes nothing but the desire to make the item more appealing through ad copy.
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I certainly don't make my own screws or anything like that, but I think this is going a bit too far as well. I'm damn proud of the work I do by hand, which is pretty much all of it.

It is certainly not just ad copy. That's my blood, sweat and tears you're dismissing, friend. (no offense taken or meant)

I agree with Jacque's "definition" above.
 
I dont take custom orders but I still call my knives custom.
Flud Unlimited Hand Made Knives is not a good acronym :)
 
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