What does the blade steel actually cost?

One of the things that I've learned is that payroll is almost ALWAYS a company's single largest expenditure and I doubt knife companies are any different. So if steel takes more time on the grinder, you're now paying skilled labor for more man hours and an extra 10 minutes per knife adds up shockingly quickly when that's the case.

Almost any manufactured item you're paying much more for the labor that it took to make it than the materials required.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
One of the things that I've learned is that payroll is almost ALWAYS a company's single largest expenditure and I doubt knife companies are any different. So if steel takes more time on the grinder, you're now paying skilled labor for more man hours and an extra 10 minutes per knife adds up shockingly quickly when that's the case.

Almost any manufactured item you're paying much more for the labor that it took to make it than the materials required.
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Cracks me up how some denigrate Chinese-made knives and demand 'Mercan-made knives, but then complain about pricing. Labor in the US is expensive relative to lesser developed countries where labor is cheap and there are little or no insurance, healthcare, and other benefits to workers. Such is life.
 
First, I have no first hand knowledge of manufacturing a knife. However, I am heavily involved in a large industrial pump manufacturing business. We consume many tons of castings, pipe and plate in various metals in our processes each week. It's not just about the raw cost of metal, which is very low for a knife regardless of metal. As mentioned prior, the harder the metal, the more machining time it takes. In our processes we machine everything prior to heat treat and hardening, to reduce machining time and tool wear as much as possible. I can guarantee that the cost to machine, heat treat and finish far, far exceeds the cost of the raw metal. There might be $ 2 worth of metal and well over an hour of production and handling time to produce the metal parts.

On top of metal and machine time, a manufacturer must buy and maintain expensive equipment and knowledgeable people to maintain them as well, production schedulers, Quality control personnel, engineering support and all of the administrative, sales and logistical personnel.

Based on what I do know, I would venture to say that the raw metal cost is less than 5% of the cost to manufacture.

Now to your point, the raw material cost difference may be as much as two to three times the base material cost. But it's still a small percentage of the overall cost.

In another industry a base 1/2 ton pickup work truck may be half the price of a loaded up version. There certainly isn't twice the material cost.. FWIW.
 
With the old US and European factories, it was machine upkeep and machining cost was a big thing. #400 and #1095 series steels were chosen because they could get giant coils that fit the stamping out machines, and it didn't overwork the grinders, etc..... Many times they'd toy with the idea of special runs in certain steels, but the big question was "What will it do to the machines?". Some of the machines were 50-100 years old.
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
Cracks me up how some denigrate Chinese-made knives and demand 'Mercan-made knives, but then complain about pricing. Labor in the US is expensive relative to lesser developed countries where labor is cheap and there are little or no insurance, healthcare, and other benefits to workers. Such is life.
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Labor in the US is more expensive but it is worth it.
 
DMG said:
Labor in the US is more expensive but it is worth it.
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I prefer US made and all the customs I have are US except one Italian maker that I like. But Chinese makers like Kizer are hitting it out of the park in terms of quality and design given their relatively low cost. So for enthusiasts without much money, they are a good option IMO.
 
Locutus D'Borg said:
I prefer US made and all the customs I have are US except one Italian maker that I like. But Chinese makers like Kizer are hitting it out of the park in terms of quality and design given their relatively low cost. So for enthusiasts without much money, they are a good option IMO.
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Perhaps. I have yet to see a good hard use knife from a Chinese company but I haven’t seen them all and really avoid buying from the chinesei when I can. I would love to see a real hard use test of say a Civivi vs a GB2 or Griptillian.
 
Hard us can mean anything. I have several knives from various countries that I use regularly and normally with no issues.

A victorinox knife can be used hard, within its specs, and it is not commonly described as a hard use knife. If you want to baton with a knife then it may not be suitable.
 
Even a hobbyist can buy a folder sized piece of steel in 1095, 3V, or Magnacut, for about $2, $10, and $15 respectively. The difference is obviously negligible in the final price of a high end product.
 
Richard338 said:
Even a hobbyist can buy a folder sized piece of steel in 1095, 3V, or Magnacut, for about $2, $10, and $15 respectively. The difference is obviously negligible in the final price of a high end product.
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Richard just to clarify this a little, I'm a hobbyist and just ordered MagnaCut the difference is staggering compared to 1095. The 1095 for a 12"x2" piece goes for about 9$ and the same in MagnaCut will cost you 54$, add the additional cost to HT if you don't do at home and you just added 20$ to each blank for MagnaCut.
 
Daniel W said:
Richard just to clarify this a little, I'm a hobbyist and just ordered MagnaCut the difference is staggering compared to 1095. The 1095 for a 12"x2" piece goes for about 9$ and the same in MagnaCut will cost you 54$, add the additional cost to HT if you don't do at home and you just added 20$ to each blank for MagnaCut.
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Yeah, it depends where you buy and what size. I was referring to a 3' length that would fit 12 folder blades. Yes, I was referring only to the cost of the steel. I send out my HT and get killed on shipping with all the various supplies and processes.
 
calm said:
Hard us can mean anything. I have several knives from various countries that I use regularly and normally with no issues.

A victorinox knife can be used hard, within its specs, and it is not commonly described as a hard use knife. If you want to baton with a knife then it may not be suitable.
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No, hard use does mean something. Cutting tough materials, light prying, opening stuff like concrete bags.


I own an auto repair shop. Today I cut some huge zip ties, made the starting cuts to sawzalll up some tires for disposal, cut wire, stripped wire, pried up a few trim clips and opened a bunch of parts boxes.
 
DMG said:
Perhaps. I have yet to see a good hard use knife from a Chinese company but I haven’t seen them all and really avoid buying from the chinesei when I can. I would love to see a real hard use test of say a Civivi vs a GB2 or Griptillian.
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I think it's VERY IMPORTANT to keep an adequate number of US manufacturers up and running. I have heard from someone with communist beliefs that well paid skilled US labor is known to be tough competition and top notch when all the conditions are right.

Unfortunately due to lax checks and balances in the US too many US companies have totally scrapped their US facilities and opted to depend on low cost foreign labor in foreign factories. No free society with a shred of moral values where slavery is illegal can come close to competing price wise with facilities in countries where workers are practically indentured.

The result now is unfortunately as far as China is concerned they can beat us in any category whether it be quality, quantity, value, and especially the ability to mass produce. US origin greed has set these foreign companies up with all the knowledge, tools, and technology, none of which they any longer need from us anymore (they are better than us now) to grow into the world's biggest manufacturing competitor.

I wouldn't huff and puff too much about 8CR steel being garbage (it's not) lest they come up with a steel that can beat anything we have (they don't but I really think they can if they want to.)

We have our work cut out for us. I still purchase a good amount of US made goods which I often have to sift through a lot BS marketing to find. I purchase Chinese and other foreign goods too from time to time but not to the extent of being a sold out cheap skate.

For those who can't afford more, those who want to try out new designs that US companies refuse to make, and even old, way past patent, totally not anything new designs that US companies refuse to make, I make no judgements. Counterfeit goods made to fool people into thinking they are made by other companies however should not be tolerated.

The only way to win is if enough people make a conscious choice to buy mostly US made goods and this is getting harder and harder because most sellers are tight lipped about their humiliating cheap skate use of foreign materials and labor.

There really is a big marketing scheme to discourage people from seeking out the source of their products so they can make a decision they want to make. Apparently there are enough people that care otherwise they wouldn't bother with all the BS smoke screens such as patriotic hype to mask their policies that are damaging to the US economy and it's ability to be self sustaining.

Super steel made in China due to their capability for large scale mass production is certainly likely to be much more inexpensive. Cost savings is nice but one can be penny wise and pound foolish so you will pay, perhaps even much more than you think eventually than if you just stuck with local production.
 
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DMG said:
No, hard use does mean something. Cutting tough materials, light prying, opening stuff like concrete bags.


I own an auto repair shop. Today I cut some huge zip ties, made the starting cuts to sawzalll up some tires for disposal, cut wire, stripped wire, pried up a few trim clips and opened a bunch of parts boxes.
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It does when you give it context, like you did now.
 
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PLAYED? If you are paying 150- 200$ for a Chinese knife than you're getting played. If you are paying that for Merican commercial made its probably in the ball park. That Chinese laborers getting maybe up to 5$ an hour. The american might 15-25$ an hour.
Of course all bets are off in our economy. Everything out of wack.
 
tokerblue said:
Why not start a knife company? I'm sure it's like printing money. :rolleyes:
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No way. A knife company requires buying capital equipment. I would rather start a cryptocurrency, no materials, just electrons, no real skills just follow the youtube videos, such as How to make a cryptocurrency for less than $2 And people will buy it!

I am of the opinion that the older, "generic" steels are real value for the money. Such as D2 steel. And that the latest and greatest, the improvement over old and boring is very hard to actually quantify. Is it a 10% improvement, 50% improvement, a 100% improvement? Prove it is a measurable improvment, not some subjective desire. You can be sure whatever % improvement you determine is real, the cost increase will be orders of magnitude more.

I was upset I could not do an apples to apples comparison of steel prices as the sizes are all different! I was looking for the price of 3/16 inch D2 to compare against any of today's super steels, and that is not going to happen. But I can say, after looking at the prices of some of the latest and greatest, they are not worth the extra cost.

I do believe the selection and metallurgy of today's steels are the best we have ever had, but at the priciest levels, it is just a fashion show. What is in today, is out tomorrow. I see this all the time, knives made twenty years ago out of 440C, AUS8, or 154CM , they sure are not selling on the secondary market for anything near what they sold for when new. Yet they still cut fine.

This is made from AUS 6. What's made from AUS6 anymore?

TRRgAzV.jpg
 
helobite said:
No way. A knife company requires buying capital equipment. I would rather start a cryptocurrency, no materials, just electrons, no real skills just follow the youtube videos, such as How to make a cryptocurrency for less than $2 And people will buy it!

I am of the opinion that the older, "generic" steels are real value for the money. Such as D2 steel. And that the latest and greatest, the improvement over old and boring is very hard to actually quantify. Is it a 10% improvement, 50% improvement, a 100% improvement? Prove it is a measurable improvment, not some subjective desire. You can be sure whatever % improvement you determine is real, the cost increase will be orders of magnitude more.

I was upset I could not do an apples to apples comparison of steel prices as the sizes are all different! I was looking for the price of 3/16 inch D2 to compare against any of today's super steels, and that is not going to happen. But I can say, after looking at the prices of some of the latest and greatest, they are not worth the extra cost.

I do believe the selection and metallurgy of today's steels are the best we have ever had, but at the priciest levels, it is just a fashion show. What is in today, is out tomorrow. I see this all the time, knives made twenty years ago out of 440C, AUS8, or 154CM , they sure are not selling on the secondary market for anything near what they sold for when new. Yet they still cut fine.

This is made from AUS 6. What's made from AUS6 anymore?

TRRgAzV.jpg
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Idk if I agree with That?
I like D2 and 440c if done well.

I wanted to order some for my next batches.
They were Almost as expensive as 3V.
I bought 3V instead. Seemed like a better value.

Even magnacut might be down from where it was in its first few months after release. I'm betting popularity might help with costing and values. Maybe why 3V seems ok
 
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