What happen to Quality control?

Knife Outlet said:
I'm very glad Case is there making knives in the USA with what I consider excellent quality and value for the times. We've already lost Schrade. Let's try to support those that remain and make a good product. It is to the benefit of all of us.
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Point Well Taken. We must support them. I hope that they would listen to us that buy them though too. Thank you for your excellent observation.

PA knives
 
I don't expect hand made knives at bargain prices but I don't think you could call Case knives hand made in the usual sense of the word. I expect all the parts are stamped out and ground by the thousand and assembled and inspected by people, exactly the same as they do in the Victorinox factory in Switzerland, not a sweat shop in the far east. Switzerland pays wages equal or more than the US. If you look at a Case, Camillus or Boker and compare the fit and finish to a Victorinox, the SAK looks like a piece of precision engineering and works like one, the others need all the rough spots smoothed off and the bent bits unbent and the blades stop rubbing against each other, the handles actually fit the bolsters and the the walking and talking snappier and smoother. I think Schrade and a lot of other US firms would still be thriving businesses if they made knives to the same standards as Victorinox and made a profit at the prices they selll for.

I don't think simply buying US knives or anything else will help US firms, we in the United Kingdom had a campaign in the late 70s to "buy British" it didn't work for an instant, a small minority of people may feel their patriotic duty to support their country's businesses but the vast majority want value for money.
 
Shing said:
I think Schrade and a lot of other US firms would still be thriving businesses if they made knives to the same standards as Victorinox and made a profit at the prices they selll for.
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Of course. And if wishes were fishes we'd have some filleted. Schrade couldn't sell enough of its product at the prices it charged to make a profit. Selling more expensive knives wouldn't have improved the profit either. They were in the business of making "affordable traditional folders." The Chinese are taking that business. If you can't get excited about Rough Rider then you had better support what we have.

Case and Queen are the best we have in the U.S. for traditional folders. We also have some good European brands - Boker, German Eye, etc. I think the European knives and American knives are comparable to one another. And why can't the Europeans make traditional knives with the consistency of Victorinox? For the same reason the American manufacturers can't. They don't make swiss army knives that have consistent parts (the spear blade or file in one SAK is exactly the same as in another.) They make traditional folders with all kinds of different shapes and sizes (and tooling.) You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

Be Glad we have Case and Queen and Boker and the others. The alternative is China.
 
If China makes traditional knives that are better quality than knives are now, then I would buy them. At this rate, US and European knife makers will soon disappear, the trend is here and now.

I don't think just because a traditional folder has lots of different blades could account for differences in their tolerances. If it was true that having a lot of blades meant knives are poorly made, than the older knives of the same pattern would not be better made than modern ones. .

Blades used to be made entirely be hand, from forging the shape of the blade from a piece of cast steel to grinding and polishing and even then workmen would take pride in making sure it was ground accurately to size so it would fit in a knife. A lot of knife blades were made in back yard forges with little more than hammers and a coke forge in Sheffield. Parts are now stamped out and ground by machines by the thousand, they should all be the same, if not it means the machines are poorly setup and maintained and parts that should be rejected are not.

Its surely not beyond modern manufacturing techology to make knives with many different blades that fit well together. Its more likely that old time firms stick with old time methods but don't produce old time quality
 
For me the sad part is Schrade did produce a quality product at fair prices but they still went under partly due to the lack of a Case like cachet to the knives....perhaps if they had produced more speciality slipjoints like Case they would still be around.

Kap
 
I think Shrade would have done well to do some specialty items. Old Timers with bone or stag scales would have done well I think. They would probably still have been less than Case too, though they would have been significantly more than the delrin models for sure. I don't know, but it seems to me that it they would not have had to change their tooling much to do it. The knives could have been exaclty the same, but with a better selection of scale materials. Limited runs of different color bone, stag and pearl. I would have bought them, I am sure others would have too. Case is doing this and I think Shrade could have snagged a piece of that market for sure. Scale materials was the only complaint I had about Old Timers. I would have had no problem kicking up the price $20.00 or $30.00 for some bone on there.
 
Schrade did produce a line of very nice bone handled traditional folders in 1983-1986....they never did take off and you can buy them reasonably now on the secondary market. They were SS, though.
 
You can't compare case to victronix. The only thing they have in common is multiblades and springs. Victronix is cheaper to make than case, cheaper to buy, thus it's easier to throw away the knives that may have a fit/finish problem but are still functional. There is a lot more effort and chance for error in a case knive with bolsters, different blades and natural handle materials. You compare two case knives of the same pattern and they are not identical, you can see the handwork. You compare two victronix of the same pattern and they are obviously the same and untouched by human hands.

Victronix has its problems too, mostly in design. Two of mine rub the handle scales or adjacent tools and have had scratch marks from day 1. The scissor springs break long before the knife is old. Their flathead screwdrivers are too soft of a steel and often deform on tight screws. Sometimes the pins for the screwdriver can't handle tight screws. Awls are often unsharpened or poorly sharpened. Many of their corkscrews break-off. The hook remover on their fisherman's knife is too short, unlike the case version.
 
I bought 2 case knives on ebay that were terrible. The springs had no snap whatsoever on one small copperlock, and the same problem exists on the two small blades of a seahorse whittler I bought the same way.
But I bought 3 copperlocks and 2 small copperheads the same way that I see no problems with at all.
I also bought a cranberry large wharncliff copperlock for $39.75 from an internet dealer that looks just fine.
None of them came out of the box very sharp, but a fairly long, patient session with the sharpmaker gave them a nice edge.....I've been using the cranberry copperlock as an EDC for weeks now.
I don't cut much during the day, so I can't comment on how well the edges last.
And I haven't tried using the warranty for the ones with weak springs yet, so I can't comment on how well they stand behind their products.....anyone have any experience with them? If I ever get around to it, I'm going to send the two with weak springs in to them, though I have been putting that off for months. bah........
I love the case knives I bought that don't have any problems. I do wish their quality control was 100% or close to it, though........but I'm sure I'll buy more of them.
 
Why can't you compare Victorinox to Case? :confused:

I've been a knife USER for over 35 years. Case built it's reputation with knife USERS. Case was once considered one of the world's finest. A Case knife used to be somewhat of a status symbol. Those days have passed. Case survives on it's past reputation.

Victorinox has also built a reputation as a USER'S knife. I'm willing to bet that Victorinox is the most widely used knife brand in the world. If it isn't, it's got to be in the top three anyway.
Many people complain about scissor springs breaking, "soft" screwdrivers and other such things. Even if your scissor spring breaks, the scissor is still funtional, and the springs are not hard to replace. Some people say the screwdrivers won't handle rusted or other hard turning screws. I'm willing to bet that they were never really intended to. They aren't meant to be a main line screwdriver. Use the right tool for the job.

My favorite Victorinox is the Settler model from the Pioneer series. It has two blades, large spear and small pen. It has no other tools. It is a true pocket KNIFE. As a pocket knife it has performed flawlessly. It does everything I ask of it and does it exceptionally well. It holds a good, but not great, edge. The blades rub a little on the handle scales. What do you expect for $20? It has no side-to-side blade play. The backspring holds it firmly open. As with any knife (especially a slip joint), all it takes is a little common sense to safely get the most out of it.

On second thoughts, I guess there really isn't much comparison between Case and Victorinox.

Paul
 
pa knives said:
IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT GOOD, THEN WHY MAKE IT AT ALL?
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It's not about making KNIVES; it's about making MONEY. That's the problem.
The Swiss are very good at doing both at once!
:D
 
If I had made knives that were as poorly fitted and blunt as my Case Stockman or Camillus trapper, they would have gone to the scrap pile. Like most makers, I know just one bad knife in the public domain damages my reputation. I make some knives that aren't good but they don't see the light of day.

I'm sure Case and Camillus do produce knives that are well made but you have to hand pick them, I don't think the customer should be in the QC chain, thats the factory's job. Victorinox do have quality problems but far fewer than many others in my experience.
 
I wonder if the reason we think of older knives ben better quality for the money is for a few reasons
people did more DIY themselves so had better tools for doing it, this means that they spent more in relation to the amount of money they had on tools including knives
The old knives that are still around are the better quality ones. I've sen loads of people complain about the sheffield quality not been what it was. The thing they forget, Sheffield and everywhere else for that matter always made crappy knives as well as the better ones.

If you take the average income of a person 30years ago and the price of a case knife then. I think you will find that the knife is much cheeper in comparison to the average income now.
What the point in buying american if it means you get a poor quality knife? I don't buy british if it means getter a worse knife for the same money. But for me the best value for money knives are in some cases british. My kitchen knives are british. At home we have a mix of british knives and swiss knives
 
:eek: Well I didn't think that this thread was going to get as much attention as it has. It just reveals to me that I am not the only one that is unhappy with the quality of regular production knives. Last night I decided to check with a friend as review some of his knives. He has a beautiful looking bone handled CASE elephant toe, limited edition, serial numbered, in a presentation box showing all of the various tang stamps. His wife bought it for him in 2000 at Lowe's for about $300. Now that is a fair price for a quality pocket knife. In fact you can get a lower end custom for that much. This is not an ever day off the shelf work knife that you would throw out after a year. Take away the fancy box and lettering and should have a workable knife. :rolleyes:

Now for the story. The same situation with the stops. They do not meet flush with the backspring and the edges are rounded to boot. Needless to say that if you were to use this supposed rugged knife for heavy duty use it would fail in a short peroid of time. The scales are rough enough to acutually catch your skin if you slide it across your hand. We all know that this knife will probably never see a hemp rope or even open a letter. It is a piece to look at and admire. If you buy your knives to strickly look at then I guess this is OK. I am of the mind set that for $300 it should not only look good, but be of quality construction also. I repeat, I really like Case knives but like the others, they need to step up the overseeing of the quality. It can't be that big of a deal. If someone who works in a machine shop could qualify that for me I woud appreciate it. If I am wrong, then I will apologize. "so much for the cost factor determining the quality"
 
This is the sort of thread manufacturers like Case should take note. I like American knives, I have a Gerber MkII, several Leathermans, several Chris Reeves, a couple of Bucks and Spydercos. I want American firms to suceed because they produce interesting and desirable knives. If Case or Camillus made knives as good as Victorinox, Spyderco or Benchmade, then I would have no hesitation buying them and keeping Americans in jobs. But Case will find the market for expensive poorly made knives will be overtaken by cheaper better made knives.
 
I bought four yellow handled CASE knives with CV blades a while back. Trapper,mini trapper,medium stockman,and a russlock. All of them are put together pretty well and tho all of them needed a little time on my whet stone I did manage to nick myself with the mini trapper. I like them and think that I paid a fair price for them. My only complaint with CASE is that their stainless steel sucks. I would really like to see them offer more knives with CV blades.
 
I just got to open an early Christmas present and I got a new Case Blue Russlock. I see absolutely no flaws in the knife as it is. Maybe mine is a fluke or problems will come out with use :confused: sure do hope it is a fluke though cause its a really good looking knife. :)
 
Case has a presence over on KF, I might put a copy of this thread over there.

As far as I'm concerned, Case can put out knives every bit as good as the Tested and XX eras. However, more clunkers get through. When I bought my CV trapper some years ago, I had to look through a dozen to find one acceptable.

My collection runs the gamut of Case. I've a 6318 that should never have left the factory floor- bad tips, horrid fit and finish, and rounded joints that don't even make a pretense of laying flush. However, I paid $10 for it. For that price, that's fine.

I also have a Cheetah and Copperlock that are exceptional. Sharp tips, clean lines, not quite square joints, but pretty darned close. It seems that Case quality is still alive, but more bad knives get through than did 20 years ago.
 
unfortunately thanks to wanting to make that extra dollar the quality suffers :(

its been that way at case for many years now.
 
I ordered a small Case saddlehorn recently and, even though I own several Case knives with no flaws (well, a boot knife I bought in the early eighties has some interesting grinds on the handle and guard), all the griping on this and some other threads had me worrying about what problems it would have when it arrived. It arrived. It is perfect. And it is sharp enough to shave with. Maybe I have just been extremely lucky. Maybe the steel could be better. I don't use my Case knives very hard as they are what I carry when I need to dress up. So I haven't had any problems with the blades. But most of my knives, whatever brand, don't get worked very hard. Just my old Buck 110 when I go into the woods and my A.G. Russell Featherlite when I am at the firehouse.

I'm not saying that people are making up the problems. I just haven't had any. Many people compare Case to Queen with Queen getting the kudos. I only own one Queen (a small slip joint with mop scales). It is okay but doesn't compare to the quality of my Cases. But I am not knocking Queen. I have only seen two (they don't seem to be too common where I live), mine and an old horribly abused slipjoint that someone showed me recently wanting to know what it was. My Queen must be an exception because of the high regard most people seem to have for them. It isn't bad but it isn't great. Rub marks from manufacturing on both blades and a very small flaw (not natural) in the mother of pearl. Very strong back springs though. I nearly always cut myself trying to open the blades. :eek: I intend to buy a Schatt & Morgan within the next couple of months.

I am not telling anyone not to complain. I want W.R. Case to know of problems people are having so, hopefully, they will correct the problems and have a long prosperus future.

I am not a Case fanatic. My user name is a combination of my rank at the fire department and my last name. Actually my favorite knife brand is Buck. :D But I am a life member of the Case Collectors Club. And I am also a life member of the Buck Collectors Club. :)

Just my two cents,
Capt. Case
 
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