What is Damascus? A true definition

I really like Damascus and Damasteel a lot. I have two Böker folders in nice presentation boxes with Damasteel blades. I've had them for a number of years and will always keep them as nice safe queens. Here's the annual edition 2008.

C3b_BOKER.jpg


This is the Annual Edition of 2013. Design by Jens Ansø. The wooden scales are almost black after several years on display.

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I also got interested about 10 years ago in hand forged Damascus. I had a few, and they were handsome but there was no way I was going to mess up such a nice etched blade. So for the lack of use and to keep the safe queens to a limit I sold them all in the end.

This multi bar san mai Damascus by the well know Swedish maker Alfred Dobner was my first custom.

C3b_DOBNER.jpg


Knives by Gudy van Poppel always felt right and I had several of them. Here's 2 folders with hand forged Damascus by the maker.

C3b_POPL_1b.jpg


C3b_POPL_2.jpg


This Sendero by van Poppel is the fixed blade I liked the most. The Sambar Stag was outstanding all around the handle. Nice belly on the blad and good centering in balance. Never the less I sold it.

Fix_POPL(3).jpg


Another nice one was this knife by Roman Blaha in Feather Damascus, Ebony, Giraffe bone and Alpaca.

Fix_BLAHA.jpg


Edit : Added a few more pictures.
 
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"True definition", or "what it is called today"?

"Damascus steel, also known as Damascened steel and sometimes watered steel, now commonly refers to two types of steel used in custom knife and sword making, pattern-weld (giving the appearance of original damascus steel) and wootz (true damascus, a steel of legendary sharpness and strength whose method of forging has been lost to time). Both types of Damascened steel show complex patterns on the surface, which are the result of internal structural elements in the steel. These patterns are the result of the unique forging methods used for the creation of Damascened steel; skilled swordsmiths can manipulate the patterns to mimic the complex designs found in the surface of the original, ancient damascus steel. Recent research into the structure and composition of true damascus steel by a Dresden scientist has revealed that the almost mythical sharpness and strength of the steel was a result of carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires present in the structure of the forged metal--the secret of which forging method was lost around 1800 A.D."

"Pattern welding is a mechanical process that lays up strips of material which are then pounded together, or folded, as in Japanese practice. If the blade is then etched in acid the layering below the surface is revealed, these patterns are similar to that of Damascus steel. For some time this similarity was used to dismiss Damascus as yet another pattern-welded steel, but modern metallurgy demonstrated this to be wrong.

Pattern welded steel is commonly sold today as "Damascus steel", though it appears that the original Damascus steel was not created with that technique. Pattern weld Damascus is made out of several types of steel and iron slices, which are then welded together to form a billet. The patterns vary depending on what the smith does to the billet. The billet is drawn out and folded until the desired number of layers are formed. The end result, if done well, bears a strong resemblance to the surface appearance of a true Damascus blade, though the internal structure is completely dissimilar."

Damascus steel

www.cs.mcgill.ca www.cs.mcgill.ca
 
davek14 said:
"True definition", or "what it is called today"?

"Damascus steel, also known as Damascened steel and sometimes watered steel, now commonly refers to two types of steel used in custom knife and sword making, pattern-weld (giving the appearance of original damascus steel) and wootz (true damascus, a steel of legendary sharpness and strength whose method of forging has been lost to time). Both types of Damascened steel show complex patterns on the surface, which are the result of internal structural elements in the steel. These patterns are the result of the unique forging methods used for the creation of Damascened steel; skilled swordsmiths can manipulate the patterns to mimic the complex designs found in the surface of the original, ancient damascus steel. Recent research into the structure and composition of true damascus steel by a Dresden scientist has revealed that the almost mythical sharpness and strength of the steel was a result of carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires present in the structure of the forged metal--the secret of which forging method was lost around 1800 A.D."

"Pattern welding is a mechanical process that lays up strips of material which are then pounded together, or folded, as in Japanese practice. If the blade is then etched in acid the layering below the surface is revealed, these patterns are similar to that of Damascus steel. For some time this similarity was used to dismiss Damascus as yet another pattern-welded steel, but modern metallurgy demonstrated this to be wrong.

Pattern welded steel is commonly sold today as "Damascus steel", though it appears that the original Damascus steel was not created with that technique. Pattern weld Damascus is made out of several types of steel and iron slices, which are then welded together to form a billet. The patterns vary depending on what the smith does to the billet. The billet is drawn out and folded until the desired number of layers are formed. The end result, if done well, bears a strong resemblance to the surface appearance of a true Damascus blade, though the internal structure is completely dissimilar."

Damascus steel

www.cs.mcgill.ca www.cs.mcgill.ca
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Parts of that seem correct. Other parts are demonstrably false, as evidenced even in this thread.
 
J. Doyle said:
Sure...I'll try. I touched on some of this in my comments above.

Old "Damascus", wootz, watered steel....even ancient Japanese tamahagane...all differ from what is known/called Damascus today in the fact that they were all (relatively) homogeneous, mono steel...all the same type of steel to start.

Today's Damascus..... (maybe more accurately called "pattern welded" steel but I will also call it Damascus because this is what everyone today means when they use the term and everyone knows what we're talking about)....is made of two or more separate alloys forge welded together in alternating, pattern arranged layers to create a visually distinct contrasting pattern.

The "why" is easy........to create a visually interesting (subjective), and artistically expressive unique blade. That's it.

No serious ethical maker I know really believes that mixing two steels together somehow magically makes a "better/superior" blade. But we need to be careful.....because it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make it an inferior blade either.

I'll say it again.....Damascus blades are NOT AUTOMATICALLY inferior blades. Stay with me.....more on this in a minute.

Only a fool or a hack/scammer would intentionally use bad inferior steel in a blade just to get a contrasting pattern.

VERY IMPORTANT: If any single steel in a Damascus mix wouldn't make a good stand-alone, monosteel knife blade then it DOESN'T belong in a Damascus blade. (There are one or two special exceptions I won't get into here but extreme care is taken to keep those materials away from the cutting edge.)

This next bit assumes the smith/maker/manufacturer is competent and cares about the quality of their products.

Steels for Damascus are chosen carefully, not only for the contrast they can offer but also their compatibility, specifically in their thermal properties and heat treating regimen.

So let's consider far and away the single most common Damascus steel combo: 1080/1084/1095 & 15n20. (There are other good combos but again, I'll save that for another time.

There's a reason the 10XX series of steels are so frequently mixed with 15n20. They all have VERY similar (nearly identical) heat treat protocol and very similar expansion/contraction rates/properties during thermal treatments.

Likewise, 15n20 is really just 1075 with a good bit of nickel added. 1075 is another good 10XX series steel with the same heat treating and thermal properties as those listed above.

This is going to make them want to weld to each other very easily and play together very nicely during the heat treating regimen.

So a blade made from 1095 & 15n20 will be uniformly and evenly hardened throughout and behave as a single monosteel except that when etched, the nickel in the 15n20 resists attack from the etchant and stays shiny. These are the silver layers in the pattern. While the 1095 is attacked (eaten away a tiny bit) and darkened by the etchant. These are the black/dark gray layers in the steel.

Both 1095 and 15n20 will make excellent stand-alone monosteel blades. But mixed, they cannot produce a blade that is somehow superior to either 1095 or 15n20.

But conversely, the two mixed will not produce a blade inferior to either 1095 or 15n20.
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Thank you for your very well thought out and informative response. What about using cpm3v and 12c27n. Would that make for a good combination?
 
Rusty Shakleford said:
Thank you for your very well thought out and informative response. What about using cpm3v and 12c27n. Would that make for a good combination?
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I honestly couldn't say if those two steels would be compatible because I've never used either one of them and I don't know the composition or heat treat protocol of either.
 
I would definitely be more interested in Damascus If they used high quality steels and we're transparent on what they use.I would be very interested in certain blends.

Would it outperform just crucible crucible technology steels I don't think so. Even laminates have their drawbacks and and are not worth the price point point Due to the amount of labor put into them
 
Damascus should theoretically be no stronger than it's weakest component...
 
Rusty Shakleford said:
Would it outperform just crucible crucible technology steels I don't think so. Even laminates have their drawbacks and and are not worth the price point point Due to the amount of labor put into them
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Your ignorance is showing. Again.

You should actually read some of the posts in this thread - specifically John Doyle's. Then read them again, until you understand them. People are trying to explain things to you, and you continue to default to your own flawed OPINIONS regarding the technical aspects of damascus.

You seem bent and determined to keep trying to undermine today's damascus, and I cannot understand your motivation for doing so, at all.
 
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Checkout Chad Nichols site. He has some AMAZING damascus billets for sale. 3v/xhp, 3v, Elmax, S30v, S35v, Magnucut. I think those are some of the coolest types of damascus, the san mai damascus, where you can have your favorite knife steel in the center and that's clad with some amazing damascus on the outside.
 
LimpCroissant said:
Checkout Chad Nichols site. He has some AMAZING damascus billets for sale. 3v/xhp, 3v, Elmax, S30v, S35v, Magnucut. I think those are some of the coolest types of damascus, the san mai damascus, where you can have your favorite knife steel in the center and that's clad with some amazing damascus on the outside.
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Can you point out where you are seeing 3v/xhp, elmax, s30/s35 and magnacut Damascus on Chad Nichols' website? I'm just not seeing any mention of those steels anywhere.

***EDIT***- I checked out his Instagram and do see posts of magnacut Damascus bars at least. Maybe they just sell out fast on his website.
 
On this page my friend. There are 3 pages of amazing different choices. Some in stock and some sold out. 🍻
nicholsdamascus.com

Core Damascus

Nichols Damascus is proud to say all our products are manufactured in the USA. We strive to offer a quality product at a reasonable price. A great product and good customer service will keep you coming back for more.
nicholsdamascus.com nicholsdamascus.com
 
LimpCroissant said:
On this page my friend. There are 3 pages of amazing different choices. Some in stock and some sold out. 🍻
nicholsdamascus.com

Core Damascus

Nichols Damascus is proud to say all our products are manufactured in the USA. We strive to offer a quality product at a reasonable price. A great product and good customer service will keep you coming back for more.
nicholsdamascus.com nicholsdamascus.com
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Thanks. I see it now.

I wish the cladding materials were listed. And even on the carbon damascus, the materials used aren't listed.

But Chad has a good reputation and I don't doubt the quality of the billets.
 
J. Doyle said:
Thanks. I see it now.

I wish the cladding materials were listed. And even on the carbon damascus, the materials used aren't listed.

But Chad has a good reputation and I don't doubt the quality of the billets.
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Yea I was thinkin the same thing. I wish it were more of a strict tradition to list what steels you use in your damascus. Usually if I cant find out somewhere then I'm not interested, but ya Chad Nichols has always been a solid player in the game. I've got two of his traditional stainless damascus blades and they've been awesome for me.
 
The knifemakers don't need to make their own pattern-welded steel. It is manufactured, and available in bar stock. The makers just need to fabricate it into blades. I don't think anyone would bother hand layering. You'd lose so much on labor, the knives would cost $1,500!

After grinding and heat-treat, the pattern comes out by etching with acid or some other etching compound. Original Damascus didn't require etching. It had the pattern naturally. It wasn't defined by the patterns, but that was one identifying characteristic. Today, it is defined by the pattern.

In ancient Japan swords were made by layering steel thousands of times, which produces a tough, stong blade. Even after guns came to be, many Japanese preferred their swords, which were rumored to be able to slice through a gun barrel!

Damascus steel is layered steel. The exact composition of the steel remains unknown, but it's the layering that defines it. Only today, many fewer layers are used than in previous eras.
 
awesome14 said:
The knifemakers don't need to make their own pattern-welded steel. It is manufactured, and available in bar stock. The makers just need to fabricate it into blades. I don't think anyone would bother hand layering. You'd lose so much on labor, the knives would cost $1,500!

After grinding and heat-treat, the pattern comes out by etching with acid or some other etching compound. Original Damascus didn't require etching. It had the pattern naturally. It wasn't defined by the patterns, but that was one identifying characteristic. Today, it is defined by the pattern.

In ancient Japan swords were made by layering steel thousands of times, which produces a tough, stong blade. Even after guns came to be, many Japanese preferred their swords, which were rumored to be able to slice through a gun barrel!

Damascus steel is layered steel. The exact composition of the steel remains unknown, but it's the layering that defines it. Only today, many fewer layers are used than in previous eras.
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I really think your posts are just so you can hear yourself click-clack at the keyboard. There’s an entire knife making community that’s making all their own pattern-welded steel. Ever heard of the American Bladesmith Society? Mastersmith’s, Journeysmith’s, Apprenticesmith’s? Wait for it….ever watched Forged in Fire to see everyday people make it?

The thousands of craftsmen making their own knives know exactly what steels they’re using and you can get many high quality, hand forged, pattern welded damascus blades for much less than $1500, exceptions do apply depending on the level of maker or the intricacy of the knife however.
 
awesome14 said:
The knifemakers don't need to make their own pattern-welded steel. It is manufactured, and available in bar stock. The makers just need to fabricate it into blades. I don't think anyone would bother hand layering. You'd lose so much on labor, the knives would cost $1,500!

After grinding and heat-treat, the pattern comes out by etching with acid or some other etching compound. Original Damascus didn't require etching. It had the pattern naturally. It wasn't defined by the patterns, but that was one identifying characteristic. Today, it is defined by the pattern.

In ancient Japan swords were made by layering steel thousands of times, which produces a tough, stong blade. Even after guns came to be, many Japanese preferred their swords, which were rumored to be able to slice through a gun barrel!

Damascus steel is layered steel. The exact composition of the steel remains unknown, but it's the layering that defines it. Only today, many fewer layers are used than in previous eras.
Click to expand...

This is just all kinds of wrong.
 
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