What Is "Expensive"?

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have recently seen several posts commenting on things being expensive.
Yes, a KMG or Bader BIII is expensive, especially compared to a HF 1X30.

The thing that gets me is the folks who say, :
" I use crowbars, I can't afford good steel, it is too expensive."
"I use ATF/peanut oil/motor oil/etc., Park's #50 is too expensive."

The cheapest part of a knife is usually the steel. A high grade steel costs about $10 per knife. Good steel, like 1084, costs a few dollars a blade.
Motor oil is about $5-8 a gallon, ATF a little more, peanut oil around $7 a gallon, Vet grade mineral oil about $7/gal., Quench oil is $7-15 per gallon.

I don't understand the economy of this?

Here is what is expensive per gallon:
Beer is form $4 to $15.
Coffee is cheap at home, but $25 at Starbucks.
Scotch is $40-4000
House paint is $15-30
Cough syrup is $100-200
Printer ink is $5000

And so on.

We don't think twice about going out with friends and dropping $15-30 each on dinner ( which goes down the toilet tomorrow), but complain about spending the same amount for a year's worth of good quenchant.

Not really a rant, just thought I would put some food for thought up.

Stacy

 

[galadduin]

Mr. Stacy, I guess no one in this community who is seriously in the bussiness of making knives and meeting the customers' expectations (if not exceeding) won't be thinking the same way as you. Nothing is expensive compared to what we want to achieve. Also no one is silly enough not to add the costs involved to a knife he/she intend to sell anyway. If you make a knife and try to sell it for 10 bucks I guess even 1080 is very pricey or he would choose to use water or brine to quench as ATF would be too expensive...

For me, the sandpapers and belts are my main expense but even them costs only 10 - 15 bucks per a large knife which is sold at least 100 - 150 bucks. I would leave a machine finish at lets say 240 or 400 if I wanted to produce a cheap knife, but would it satisfy me? I don't think so....

 

[deker]

I think "expensive" is a state of mind Stacy. Around here at least, vet grade mineral oil is closer to $15/gal, but I still went that route before buying Parks #50...not quite sure why. It's a perceived economy thing. There are some things in life that no matter how much I can rationally understand the price behind, seem "expensive". I think everybody has this type of blockage somewhere.

For example, beds seem "expensive". Go to a mattress store to find something that isn't a torture rack to sleep on and you're looking at $1000-4000 for a bed. MY brain screams "that's highway robbery!" for no good reason. When you stop and think about it though, a good bed lasts 10 years and is used for 8 hours a night. That's almost 30000 hours of use out of a thing that costs just a few thousand dollars. Compare that to the use most folks get from a car (for which they'll happily drop $30k or more) and it's just lunacy to complain.

Sadly people don't make sense. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't a rational false-economy with some of them, or that some simply haven't really thought about it, but some stuff just seems "expensive".

I dunno....

-d

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I'm with ya', Stacy.
I built custom homes for almost 30 years and learned early on that it is beneficial in nearly every situation to just get the right "stuff" to do the job.
Better quality.
I doesn't come back at you later.
The job goes smoother.
Customer is happier.
Etc.
When a fellow just tries to get by and use shortcuts, ultimately everybody loses time/money/quality.
It truly, truly, truly IS cheaper to just get the right "stuff" in the first place.
And if you don't know what the right "stuff" is, just ask here!
Somebody'll tell ya'.

 

[69_knives]

We don't think twice about going out with friends and dropping $15-30 each on dinner ( which goes down the toilet tomorrow), but complain about spending the same amount for a year's worth of good quenchant.

Not really a rant, just thought I would put some food for thought up.

Stacy

If I could get Parks#50 here, or another commercial quenchant that I didn't have to buy in 45 gallon quantities, I would.

People have done scientific tests on all sorts of non-commercial quenchants and published the speeds of the various fluids that offer a plethora of speed ranges; so, I need to work with what I can actually obtain in a reasonable manner.

 

[Ed Caffrey]

I think you folks are missing the point. I assume this thread is an offshoot of the "Whats just fine" thread.

That thread was initiated by an individual who is just now thinking about getting started in knifemaking....which makes the question of "what's expensive" very relative to each individual's situation and experience level. Looking at my insurance policy today, my two shops and the included equipment/materials shows a value of just over $240,000....but it wasn't always so, and I doubt it was for anyone. I started with a an old picnic table for a bench, a brake drum forge, and a container of ATF. At that time in my life, those items where expensive....because I was still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my kid! So at that time, $15 for a gallon of mineral oil was unthinkable. The fact that the ATF was free, and it worked, made it the best choice for me.
Knifemaking/Bladesmithing is a journey, just like life, and everybody must start at the beginning. First I had to crawl, then I walked, and later learned to run. What I consider "just fine" today, will likely not be what I consider "just fine" tomorrow...because tomorrow I will have gained a bit more knowledge, garnered a bit more experience, and hopefully evolved a bit more in my skills.
I think that those of us who have been doing this for a while, often fail to remember what and where we came from, and how we have evolved, when answering questions posed on the forums. When we answer those questions without considering the current evolutionary state of the individual asking them, without intending, it comes off as arrogant.

Our job as "experienced" makers is not to bring everyone to our level all in one shot...thats impossible. What is possible is to put yourself in the individual's position, offer what you consider the correct information, and let the indvidual make the decison, without being critical of their choices because its not what you would do.

So what's Expensive? Thats going to be different for each individual, based on not only income, but where they are in their knifemaking journey, and the level of committment to it.

 

[steelshaper]

I got a second job to help out with the bills and hopefully soon I will be able to afford to make knives. get this, my part time, 25 hours a week, job brings in about $650.00 a month. that is he morgage payment for my house, with nothng left over. Yep my house is actually cheap. When I have ANY extra cash I put it right back into knife making. However when the car needs new brakes (like it does now) the extra money has to go to that instead. If you think this is bad logic well talk to my wife!

I have to go to work now I will post more later.
take care all.

 

[AcridSaint]

I think you folks are missing the point. I assume this thread is an offshoot of the "Whats just fine" thread.

That thread was initiated by an individual who is just now thinking about getting started in knifemaking....which makes the question of "what's expensive" very relative to each individual's situation and experience level. Looking at my insurance policy today, my two shops and the included equipment/materials shows a value of just over $340,000....but it wasn't always so, and I doubt it was for anyone. I started with a an old picnic table for a bench, a brake drum forge, and a container of ATF. At that time in my life, those items where expensive....because I was still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my kid! So at that time, $15 for a gallon of mineral oil was unthinkable. The fact that the ATF was free, and it worked, made it the best choice for me.
Knifemaking/Bladesmithing is a journey, just like life, and everybody must start at the beginning. First I had to crawl, then I walked, and later learned to run. What I consider "just fine" today, will likely not be what I consider "just fine" tomorrow...because tomorrow I will have gained a bit more knowledge, garnered a bit more experience, and hopefully evolved a bit more in my skills.
I think that those of us who have been doing this for a while, often fail to remember what and where we came from, and how we have evolved, when answering questions posed on the forums. When we answer those questions without considering the current evolutionary state of the individual asking them, without intending, it comes off as arrogant.

Our job as "experienced" makers is not to bring everyone to our level all in one shot...thats impossible. What is possible is to put yourself in the individual's position, offer what you consider the correct information, and let the indvidual make the decison, without being critical of their choices because its not what you would do.

So what's Expensive? Thats going to be different for each individual, based on not only income, but where they are in their knifemaking journey, and the level of committment to it.

Hi Ed - I don't think this applies quite so well to the quench situation. If I buy peanut oil locally, it costs $10/GA, if I buy oil from McMaster-Carr it costs $15/GA. I think what Stacy is saying is, why would we not spend an extra $15-$25 for a better product that we can use over and over.

No one gets on folks here for suggesting starting with a known steel. Although scrap yard knives can come out rather well, you don't know what you're using or how to heat treat it.

I ask, what good is starting with a known steel if we don't start with a known media to quench it in?

 

[Jason Fry]

When I have ANY extra cash I put it right back into knife making. However when the car needs new brakes (like it does now) the extra money has to go to that instead.

That's it for me. If it comes down to groceries or quench oil, or electricity or a heat treat oven, or gasoline or an anvil, well, you get the idea. If I could get my wife to stick with the budget, then all of those things just out of reach will be much more reachable.

Expensive is a relative term that means "just a little more than I want to spend."

 

[jacqueeagonsr]

Stacy asks " What Is "Expensive"? "

If 'it' costs more than I want to pay, then, 'it' is expensive. I've found that, on most things in life, you get what you pay for. And, my Dad always said that it's usually best to buy the most expensive that you can afford. The best example I can give are the Craftsman tools he bought 50+ years ago that I am still using.

And, Stacy, thanks for your help on my pewter project. It came out great!

Regards,
Jacque

 

[Justin.Mercier]

I've always been a firm believer both of 'you get what you pay for' and the old addage "only a rich man can afford cheap tools"

That said, i've only got McMaster 11second quench oil, and not parks, more due to availability than cost =P

 

[delbert ealy]

I think you folks are missing the point. I assume this thread is an offshoot of the "Whats just fine" thread.

That thread was initiated by an individual who is just now thinking about getting started in knifemaking....which makes the question of "what's expensive" very relative to each individual's situation and experience level. Looking at my insurance policy today, my two shops and the included equipment/materials shows a value of just over $340,000....but it wasn't always so, and I doubt it was for anyone. I started with a an old picnic table for a bench, a brake drum forge, and a container of ATF. At that time in my life, those items where expensive....because I was still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my kid! So at that time, $15 for a gallon of mineral oil was unthinkable. The fact that the ATF was free, and it worked, made it the best choice for me.
Knifemaking/Bladesmithing is a journey, just like life, and everybody must start at the beginning. First I had to crawl, then I walked, and later learned to run. What I consider "just fine" today, will likely not be what I consider "just fine" tomorrow...because tomorrow I will have gained a bit more knowledge, garnered a bit more experience, and hopefully evolved a bit more in my skills.
I think that those of us who have been doing this for a while, often fail to remember what and where we came from, and how we have evolved, when answering questions posed on the forums. When we answer those questions without considering the current evolutionary state of the individual asking them, without intending, it comes off as arrogant.

Our job as "experienced" makers is not to bring everyone to our level all in one shot...thats impossible. What is possible is to put yourself in the individual's position, offer what you consider the correct information, and let the indvidual make the decison, without being critical of their choices because its not what you would do.

So what's Expensive? Thats going to be different for each individual, based on not only income, but where they are in their knifemaking journey, and the level of committment to it.

Ed I am astonished,
I could really not imagine a shop and contents with a value that high.
I have a brand new shop and contents that I consider complete for knifemaking and forging including making damascus; my primary business.
I know the value of my shop since it is new and I also know the replacement value of all my equipment and it comes to just over 10% of the figure you named. I DO have a digitally controlled kiln and several varities of commercial quench oil. I am able to heat treat any of the steels available to knifemakers up to 36" long. This is not the most expensive equipment in my shop.
Del

 

[Ed Caffrey]

Delbert,

YOUR RIGHT! I made a typo....I had to go back and double check my previous post when I saw that number.....its acually 240,000! Man, you must have thought that I was a career criminal or something to have that much stuff!
Even that figure put me back on my heels when it was all said and done. I was shocked at what replacement costs would be for all this "stuff" at today's prices. Thanks for catching my error!

Saint: I agree and understand what your saying. For guys like you and me, that only makes sense, but looking back to when/how I started out, it wouldn't. At that stage, my only thought was that I can't afford ALL this stuff, so I have to compromise. I still remember my wife asking me why I was spending all this money (which was nothing by my standards today, but was a good chunk in those days), when I would just want to do something else in a month.
What I'm saying is that just like all of us, these folks getting started today, have to start somewhere, and in most cases their priorities are very different than what yours and mine are...and we need to consider that. Maybe its only my viewpoint, but many times I have dropped out of a thread because it seems that arrogance and egos take over, and the point of helping folks goes out the window. We're never going to beat our points of view into anyone...all we can do is make suggestions, and let the individuals make their own decisions.

 

[bjalongi]

Where do you find quench oil for $7-15 a gallon? I'd sure like to know. I'll be all over it, man!

Thanks.
BJ

 

[jawilder]

I will openly confess that I am one of those guys who looks at the quenchant and thinks "that's expensive". I haven't bought Stabright solder yet online b/c I'm not yet ready to eat the shipping costs. I haven't ordered any good 1084 yet b/c although it may be cheap per pound, right now I have several FREE files and other unknowns that I'm able to work on.

I am not a professional knife maker. I may not ever sell a knife. For me it is an art and a hobby... one that costs money well before I make money. I am still trying to figure out some basics and learn to forge/grind well enough to justify $50 for this and $100 for that.

At this point, I am the one rolling pennies to buy milk for the baby while my wife is saying "why do you need to buy 20 Mule Team this month?"

I understand that everyone is at different levels and if I were professional I would want nothing but the best for my blades. But at this point, since I am only a weekend grinder I have more time than money (not even much of that) and am investing in experience rather than top dollar oil, steel, or wood.

Hopefully one day I can invest in both.

 

[AcridSaint]

BJ - McMaster-Carr has two quench oils for under $15/GA, they might work for you.

Ed - I know what you're saying, I started with not even enough money for my 4x36 belt sander, we all do have to start somewhere. I also don't think your first knives have to be perfect in any respect. I've quench many knives in Canola oil, Vegetable oil, Motor Oil and Mineral Oil, they all seemed to come out OK. I don't think I'd want to send them for analysis, but that's a different story

I try to avoid recommending high-dollar items to newbies starting out, for newbie carbon steel I like 1084 and canola oil or brine if you're a little more daring. I'm also one who prefers to recommend files over buying a cheap sander or expensive grinder.

When we move out of newbie status, I think we can also start to move into better tools and techniques. There are always steels that can use less precise oils and there's always brine available for folks who want to use more demanding steels, so we don't have to spend a lot of money to get good results.

All that being said, I'd prefer newbies just start on 440C and send it out for heat treating

 

[Whoever Wherever]

I can certainly hear what you are saying Ed. For me, when I was starting it wasn't so much the cost of individual goods, but the whole of what I needed. I could afford steel, I could afford sandpaper and I could afford a drill bit. However add up all 3 together along with clamps, epoxy, solder and a vise and it became overwhelming. I can see how quench would be something newbies view as "well I already have some oil". there are plenty of other things to spend said money on. Even today I can think of dozens of things I could really use in my shop but don't have the scratch. But I do hope that we are making the case to new comers that a. heat treat is crucial to performance and b. quench is a good investment and lasts a long time. I never fail to tell aspiring knife makers to get $50 knife shop, anyway you can start will plant the seed.

 

[David Schott]

You know, I think a big part of this whole discussion revolves around a change in attitude.

I think the key problem here is that some people don't like "paying dues" by slowly building a shop, starting simple, adding tools slowly, refining skills to know what tools they need, etc etc.

Instead, the instant gratification syndrom causes people to think they need it all just to get started. I think this is more their fault than anyone elses....

For example, if someone asks what the best milling machine for knifemaking is, then what a good heat treat oven is, then what grinder, people are going to answer them openly and honestly. Does it mean that new maker NEEDs those things? Course not! The problem comes when those new guys turn around and get frustrated by the sheer volume of information and money that could be spent. Suggesting they get the $50 knife book is probably the best advice but is often skipped, scoffed, or dismissed by people wanting to be making 15" bowies as their first knife.

I think if some of these folks followed a logical path to learning a new trade, the questions would answer themselves. Its silly for someone to be stressing over the myriad of scientific data surrounding quench mediums when they havent even tried to HT a single blade. The wealth of knowledge here is SO GREAT that a newbie can quite literally start a knife and ask each question as they come across it rather than making sweeping questions before they've even laid their hands on a piece of sandpaper.

Contrast the instant gratification types with those that come to the forum, buy a bar of steel and a file, and get going. The ones jumping right in with what they have, even if its basic, are the ones who seem happiest, making the fastest progress and receiving the most support.

 

[David Schott]

I understand that everyone is at different levels and if I were professional I would want nothing but the best for my blades. But at this point, since I am only a weekend grinder I have more time than money (not even much of that) and am investing in experience rather than top dollar oil, steel, or wood.

Hopefully one day I can invest in both.

+1 this is the best attitude to have. Additionally, the more you invest in experience, the less you end up wasting buying the wrong tools or tools you don't need.

 

[bjalongi]

Thanks acrid, I've stayed away from ordering that particular oil because I thought it was too slow for cooling blades. Am I wrong? I've read other knife makers say it wasn't good enough and that food oils were actually better if you're trying to buy quenching oil on a tight budget.

~$60 for 5 gallons seems reasonable to me.


Thanks for the perspective on this guys. I have been noticing that these types of threads go round and round. I remember an unknown steel thread a few months ago that made several people go nuts! In the end the thread merely concluded: 'beginners are better served to use good materials/tools, but it's ok to start with what ever you can scrounge up. However, after you're past the learning curve and ready to step it up a notch, spend some money and get the right materials.' That can be applied to this thread as well.

There's nothing wrong with beginners starting with cheaper materials/tools. They could invest in good tools from the get go and then discover knifemaking isn't for them. Same thing goes for any hobby actually. Why buy a $15,000 hand made kayak, only to realize six months later that you hate it. A $400 plastic kayak or a few rental fees would've answered the question without breaking the bank.

I also think that a lot can be said about starting simple and building up. It gives one a sense of accomplishment as they progress.

Take care,
BJ