What Is "Expensive"?

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I'm with Stacy, I've got most of the tools I bought 30 years ago still running today,
I spend 2500-3000 a year on steel and belts, Expensive? not when the return is all your bills are paid and you're making a living at it.
Ken.
 
I just wanted to throw my thoughts in here on what I feel is expensive in knife making.

When I first started knifemaking, I had about $250 in extra cash to spend however I wanted. I bought a metal cutting band saw ($160) and a 1x30 belt sander ($30). So then I had about $60 left before I'd be cutting into my money. I got some mild steel to try it out, and then finally got some O1. That was where I was out of the extra cash. I had some free scales from Tracy, and then I proceeded to make my first knife. It turned out okay, especially after making a device to hold an angle (which I sold to other people for extra income) and then I blew over $350 on exotic and USA woods. Then I needed some steel. Looked up where I can get some cheap, bought closeout prices of 1084 from Admiral. Another $80 down. To this point, I'm still out about $100-$150 of my own money, but I tested the waters before I went head first.

So what's expensive to me? The tools are. I don't have any source of income, aside from wood blocks and any knives I sell, so dropping more than $200 on anything is difficult.

The only things I can really justify buying at this point are things to help with the wood blocks, parts for a homemade 2x72 grinder, and a forge. I use blowtorches and canola oil for heat treating, because that's all I have right now without spending money that I don't have. My quench tank is my dad's old ammo case with 3 gallons of canola that we got at Sam's club.
 
bladsmth said:
We don't think twice about going out with friends and dropping $15-30 each on dinner ( which goes down the toilet tomorrow), but complain about spending the same amount for a year's worth of good quenchant.

Stacy
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Who is this we Stacy? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? You may want to rethink that. You can say that you have no problem spending $15-30 each on dinner. These days that would cause me serious emotional distress.:(
 
Making stupid mistakes that cost you money because you didn't come to BF first: Expensive

Coming to BF to learn from seasoned pros and newbs and the miriad shared experiences and scientific data: Free

Supporting your steel addiction and learning a new trade: Subjective

Enjoying a new hobby and having something to do besides watching brain melting television: Priceless!
 
I think this is a great thread.

And myself, having made 1 1/2 knives, bring that newbies perspective to the table.

I am going up to my fiancee's family's ranch to rummage through their farm dump for the parts to make a charcoal forge, slake tub, ash can and a can to make charcoal. I have already been gifted with an anvil made out of rail welded to an I-beam for mass, luckily the guy who did this, also ground a horn on one end.

And I will probably prevail upon a friend to help me with the welding.

I live on my two brother's couch, in their apartment.

Now, at some level, I chose where I am at. And I will have a regular job here shortly, as there are jobs. But, in order to accomplish what I needed, I went without a job awhile.

So, a KMG is far, far away.

And, while I may buy some bar stock, I will more likely try to work a barter, cutting up some of the cars in the farm dump for the coil springs and such that I can scrounge.

Will I end up with a blade that stacks up to a Cashen, Caffrey, Apelt, or anyone else you might want to mention? No.

But, I will be able to build a knife that will stand up to the standard of village blacksmiths all over the world. And I am happy with that, for now.

And then, as soon as I can figure out how to accomplish hamon like Stacy does, and heat treat like Kevin does, I will.

So, in conclusion, I will do things as best as I can figure out, but I am going to starting at the brute/caveman end of the continuum. shrug

Marion
 
bladsmth said:
I don't understand the economy of this?

Here is what is expensive per gallon:
Beer is form $4 to $15.
Coffee is cheap at home, but $25 at Starbucks.
Scotch is $40-4000
House paint is $15-30
Cough syrup is $100-200
Printer ink is $5000

And so on.

We don't think twice about going out with friends and dropping $15-30 each on dinner ( which goes down the toilet tomorrow), but complain about spending the same amount for a year's worth of good quenchant.

Not really a rant, just thought I would put some food for thought up.

Stacy
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I understand 100% what you are trying to say. It's all in how it's viewed. Perception.

I used a 1x42 and a 4x36 to mod lots of production knives and attempted to make my own knives. I knew I wanted the Bader , but it was out of reach. I continued modding knives and selling them , or doing work for others. Each time I made $$$ , it went in the Bader bucket. I quit drinking , more $$ for the Bader bucket. No more going out for lunch at work , brown bag it..more saved $$$. Not much on it's own , but together it added up. I got the Bader.

I still don't drink anymore , seldom go out for lunch , seldom do anything extravagant , it all adds up .

I still use that 1x42 and 4x36 for stuff. Not as much as the Bader but they still get used.

Like Ed said ( basically ) , get what you can to get ya going and build from there.

It's not about how fast we can get there , it's about getting there someday , your way. Most important , get something , and get to grindin'.

:D
 
I know a new maker that sold his truck and walked 6 miles to work to pay for his tools... it's all a matter of how bad you want.

I mention this a lot but I started out with crap for stuff because that's what I could afford. I say this because I want people to understand I have been in your shoes in the lower levels of knifemaking hell. I had a forge made from a barbeque grill that I found on the side of the road, my anvil was a sledge hammer in a bucket of concrete and my grinder was a thrift store 2x24 sander upside down in a vise. I've been there and can assure you that with hard work, thriftiness and caring about every knife and especially every person that drops a penny on one of your blades, you WILL get the money to buy the upper end stuff. I look around my shop now and am amazed at the stuff I have compared to how I started.
 
All good comments.

The thing that really gets me is that I would be willing to bet that nearly every person who posts that something is too expensive and thus they have to use a cheaper alternative ( which often is barely any cheaper), uses a cell phone with unlimited minutes and texting, has cable with the extras, drinks/smokes/eats fast food/coffee or some non-necessity,.......well you get the idea. It is those things that are actually expensive, but many folks don't see it.

One of the gals at work started bringing her lunch recently. She said she realized that she spends about $5-7 dollars for lunch, three days a week. That is $1000 a year. She makes a nicer lunch for about $2. Now most of the gals bring their lunch.

My wife is an attorney. She does a lot of bankruptcy work for Tidewater Legal Aid. These folks are poor and hurting to say the least. When she does the worksheet with them she looks it over, and asks about their other expenses. They look clueless, until she asks:
Do they eat out and how often - usually McD's,BK,KFC and the bill is usually $20 at least two or three times a week.
Why is their cable bill $180/mo? - because we watch PPV, four movie channels, etc.
Why is their cell phone bill $240/mo - Because my three daughters ( age 9,11,15), my husband, my son, ands me all need a internet capable texting phone with unlimited minutes.
Why do you have three cars? - Because my husband needs one, I need one (works one mile from the house), and my son (High school junior) needs one to drive to school.
Do you smoke? How much? - About a pack a day.
I see you have a Sears bill for $90/mo what is that for? - The wide screen TV and home entertainment system.
Etc, Etc.


Once she works out a budget the trustee will approve, they suddenly find that there have several hundred dollars a month to spare. Sadly, many are back in a year or two with money problems.


Don't get me wrong, I realize that there are many on this forum who have virtually no expendable cash, and that any hobby projects are done on the cheap. The point of this thread was that some folks complain ( on the forum) that steel or oil is expensive, but spend far more on things that they never think twice about, and often use substitutes that are nearly as expensive.

I got an email once from a forumite that thought I was an elitist. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am far from it. I came from very simple immigrant stock, had no frills growing up. Worked hard, played harder, and paid my own way. I have a comfortable life, but not fancy ( beyond a good single malt now and then). I don't have any premium channels on the cable,text on the phone ( which is a plain freebie),eat out too often, out two cars are a 1998 Escort and a 2001 Voyager ( saved up and paid cash for both) My smithy and back yard look like those of a lot of other members of this forum...stacked full of stuff (stuff is the polite word for a lot of junk). I turn down job offers nearly every year that would double my income...because I don't want to work in a Mall for a big chain store, dealing with snob customers. Some of my favorite customers wear old jeans, drive a (nice by usable) truck, deal with us as equals, aren't demanding,......and could probably buy the whole store inventory in cash.

Stacy
 
We don't always notice how good we have it here. There are professional full time smiths in South America, Asia, Africa who make working tools for farmers and craftsmen. Their steel stock are leaf springs, quenchants dead motor oil, manual
grinders, charcaol forges, manual bellows. compose their shops. Saw some knives last summer from a North Vietnamese knife maker the finish was rough, the handle wood seemed about as dense as pine, but the forgings were as thin and elegant
and dead straght. I bet they cut like anything. Asked the importer what they were made of, he did not know but guess what ever the guy was able to scrounge.
A old saw blade knife will probably still out perform most any new knife I can buy at the the local hardware or department store. The funny thing is even here in the richest country most of the population uses a cheap 420 stainless knife.
 
bjalongi said:
"beginners are better served to use good materials/tools, but it's ok to start with what ever you can scrounge up. However, after you're past the learning curve and ready to step it up a notch, spend some money and get the right materials." That can be applied to this thread as well.
Click to expand...

This is quite possibly the most balanced, wisest statement I have seen yet in these threads about these subjects. Way to drive it home. :thumbup::)



Jason
 
Oh, heck, might as well weigh in. What's expensive is bottled water when compared to gasoline. Gas starts in Saudi Arabia or Alaska, is drilled, pumped, shipped, refined, trucked, and pumped again, and we get it for $2.79 a gallon here in little ol' Winthrop Washington.

Bottled water is usually water from a tap that has been put in a bottle. Filtered, chlorinated, and bottled. Very little bottled water is really spring water that has been untreated. Check the label. And bottled water costs anywhere from $1-2 per quart, which would compare to gasoline at $4-8 per gallon. Plus you then have a plastic bottle to recycle or dump in the landfill.

Go figure.
 
I have read this thread and the other one Ed referred to. There is some good information on both threads. I have always believed that using the best you can afford is going to be the cheapest way to go in the long run and you want to be there for the long run so don't go with better than you can afford. Many people just starting out want to focus on the equipment and not on making the knife. I much rather help someone just getting started, if they show me a knife they have made, instead of a list of equipment they are accumulating. It doesn't matter if it is just with files and a piece of scrap steel clamped to the kitchen table, if it is the best knife they can make with what they have…. we have a point to start from. I think sometimes people use knife making as an excuse to acquire equipment which is fine, but they are doing it because they love the equipment not the knife. It takes desire to make a knife not a shop full of equipment. That can come later and likely will.

These kinds of threads are good because they not only point out the consequences of trying to get by with what you have, but also help to point out different methods of solving the problems you run into. If you can't match the quenching oil to the steel, then match the steel to the quenching oil. It might be a little cheaper and you still end up with a good knife.
 
Stacy an elitist? I should think not. While I have never had personal interaction outside the forum and email, he has always been helpful to me. I also see him chiming in with advice on everything from Japanese techniques to jewelry making techniques that might help a knife maker. If people like Stacy and Kevin stop posting due to people reacting harshly to them trying to give accurate info and advice, where would this forum be? We are supposed to be knife makers and blacksmiths. Lets all go pound a beer, slug our best buddy in the arm and relax a little (female makers feel free to join us or substitute your favorite beverage).
 
If I ever need advice with something involving knives, I turn to Tracy or Stacy. If I have questions about heat treating or steel composition, I turn to Kevin Cashen. All three of them have helped me more than words can describe. And without this forum, I wouldn't be making knives at all.
 
Stacy, it's expensive because many knifemakers are students doing it as a hobby. Steel is too expensive, when you can use an old file. Quench oil is just too much, when you can just use beer.
 
COTDT, ummmm this is expensive when you have a family of 3 and don't make much money. I don't know any students poorer than a working man raising a family. The family comes before the hobby and so the hobby goes lacking. That being said, a piece of 1080 from Admiral is cheaper PER BLADE than using an old file. I'm far from knocking either approach because I've been on both sides. I just want people to FINISH knives. I would like for people to understand why others get exasperated of answering the weekly "made a knife from som unknown steel, quenched in badger fat and motor oil, why doesn't it harden and what temperature do I temper it at?" When you ask questions full of unknowns then you'll get no answers or answers full of unknowns.
 
BikerMike,
I agree. Lets start a new thread on making a home still that looks like a forge and quench tank.
Since this is an old thread, hijacking it isn't a bad thing. cotdt must sit up all night looking for old threads to resurrect. Sort of reminds me of pimpinsquee.
On the topic of Scotch, I find many of the mid age single malts to be as good as the older malts. For example, Macallan 18 year is just as good ( sometimes better) than the Macallan 25 year. With the 25 year being about four times the cost ($700 vs $170), that is too expensive for what you get. Even the 18 year is really too expensive for what it is. The 10 year and 12 year are perfectly fine for most folks, and are $40 and $50.I often check out the smaller distilleries that don't have the name recognition ( and the huge advertising budget to pass on to the customer) for good deals at reasonable pricing.
Stacy
 
Stacey im with you im a firm believer in that you get what you pay for. If your goona do it do it right as far as pinching penny s most of the time it kicks you in the @ss. I always say suck it up, if you want quality be ready to pay for it. The funny thing is IS most of the time it pays to pay the extra few bucks. Please note I said MOST and thats important sometimes you can get away with a lower priced item but may be equally as good in quality.
 
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