What is going on with the ABS?

steven....first let me say that i do not post very often but i enjoy reading all of your threads and thank you for contributing to forums like this.......i am a collector of knives and have to put in my two cents.....i think that the level of ms stamps should be tested every few years...i think it would be a great idea ....probably not too feasable though.....i talked with a very famous ms recently and he said quote.....one day i hope to attain the level of fit and finish that jerry fisk has......it is not a bash on that ms or is it a huge compliment to fisk......it is respect for your job and wanting to do better at it....i mean this coming from a ms that sells out at shows etc,etc.....that is what is wrong i think.....i think alot of people....especially js's get comfortable and just slap a thousand dollar price tag on knives....and somebody will eventually come along and buy them.....they are pricing collectors like myself out of the market.....saying this....i do not claim to know alot or anything for that matter about the abs.....however from talking to several people and hearing stories of js's dropping out of the abs etc....i feel like it is alot like other organizations......just my two cents ....agree or disagree.....p.s......coop...i'd like to hear what tai says too........
 
RogerP said:
Simply put, they take this whole "not for profit" bit much too far, much too often.

Roger
Click to expand...

I that sums it up rather nicely Roger.

The ABS should be run for the benefit of of its members. If it is not, then why bother?

I think that within the ABS, there is some serious confusion, about the meaning of, and distinction between the words BENEFIT & PROFIT. They are not one in the same. The Unites States is packed with hugh "not for profit" organizations and trade groups that constantly promote and lobby on behalf of their members and for their benefit. They have replaced baseball as our national pastime, for crying out loud. There is absolutely no reason why the artisan makers of forged blades should not enjoy the benefits of an organization that promotes and expands the public's appreciation of their work.

Now I will shut up. For the record I am not a member of the ABS, and do not have a dog in this dispute.
 
Starkman1 said:
I have come to accept and rely upon the judgment of ABS, and focused my efforts on makers who have earned their JS and MS stamps to ensure I was purchasing a quality product. However, on several occasions I have had some disappointing experiences where some ABS makers: have not lived up to the standards of their respective rating, used the stamp as a marketing tactic to increase prices, or have poor customer service (see Hall of Shame, GBU …names need not be mentioned). Thus, I have come to question the credibility of the organization.
Bob
Click to expand...

The MS and JS stamps have ONLY one meaning. In a particular place, at a particular time, the maker submited five knives that met or exceeded the ABS standard. Every knife must be judged upon its own merit by the buyer.

They are NOT a guarantee or a seal of approval for future work.
 
The ABS is a Non-Profit Organization whose only concern is the "Education of people about forging an edged utensil (knife, hatchet, sword, etc.).

That is it.

They provide guidelines to attain the JS and MS status in their organization.

The School in Old Washington provides "Education" in the craft and techniques of forging.

The ABS does not care about collectors (unless they are paying to take a class or want to become a member as a AS, JS or MS).

The ABS does not care about marketing, in fact they do not allow its paid up members to use the ABS logo on the makers business cards. As their Lawyers have determined some (read IRS) may misconstrue this as the ABS somehow is receiving a portion of the sale.

Many, to include myself, at first glance assume the ABS is there to support the maker and/or collector. They are not...they are there to EDUCATE.

As the ABS approachs the 120 MS mark (probably this year) and an equal number of JS makers. The ABS will start down the path the Knifemakers Guild made so long ago. Eventually the question went from who is a voting member to who isn't a voting member. The organization became impotent as a force in custom knives,the very market they created! Their problem was their focus was on the makers. It was only after years of decreasing show attendance and membership that the Guild tried with too little to late to show the collectors that they care.

The ABS Board is primarily concerned with what the board feels should be done to help the board. The politics of knives has become more important than the knives, those who make them and those who buy them.

Hopefully the ABS will learn from the cautionary tale of the US Knifemakers Guild. One thing they did do following the Guilds lead is reduce the number of days for Reno Show.

Boys and Girls, take the politics out of it. Do your homework, learn the makers position in the market and purchase knives with value pricing and the potential to at least break even if you decide to trade or sell the knife.

WWG
 
This thread seems to come up every year or so. I agree with its general tone but am at a loss at what we should do, either within or without the ABS to help promote the craft. Maybe the knifemaking world needs a collector's organization?

JD
 
What about the NKCA? Stating that, I have only seen their various club knives for sale at different shows, and know nothing else about them.
 
I've never joined beyond the associate level, for my owe personal reasons.

I have a lot of friends in the ABS and think it's a fine organization for what it is... but it isn't everything.

It seems to be evolving into something other than what it started out to be,… but I guess that’s to be expected. :)
 
I think a little more energy and enthusiasm would go a long way. If you've ever attended the annual banquet dinner you'll probably agree that energy and enthusiasm are a bit scarce...

The organization needs to step up its visibility and PR a bit. Get a young, smart, talented, energetic new maker or collector in charge of public relations and marketing. Revamp the website, improve its content, promote the craft in a more visible and public manner. Reach out to non knife publications like Popular Science, Mens Journal, Outdoor Life, National Geographic, etc. and invite journalists to hammer-ins and shows.

The Reno show, the Bladesmithing School, and the Hammer-ins are all very good ways for the ABS to promote the handforged knife but I think the organization could benefit from broadening its vision a bit and getting some new blood on the board.

As far as re-testing JS and MS makers every few years, it'll never happen so don't even go there. Some have suggested creating some sort of super-MS designation to recognize the most exceptional makers, but that won't fly either. Nothing that would diminish the past accomplishments of good, established makers would be welcomed by the ABS establishment and I personally don't think it would do much good anyway. The craft is evolving and the market and the knife community recognizes which makers are producing the best contemporary work. I think that's sufficient. Peter said "The MS and JS stamps have ONLY one meaning. In a particular place, at a particular time, the maker submited five knives that met or exceeded the ABS standard. Every knife must be judged upon its own merit by the buyer." He couldn't be more right about that.

It's great that newer makers are raising the bar, and that their fit and finish in some cases surpasses that of some of the older generation of makers, but that's normal for every craft and its a testament to the ABS success in promoting the craft and educating makers. Again, let's not diminish the past accomplishments of the previous generation of makers (many of which, I might add, can still teach the young whippersnappers a thing or three).

Like I said, a little fresh blood and an injection of enthusiasm will go a long way in keeping the ABS moving forward. Absent that, the organization will stagnate.
 
SharpByCoop said:
I'm in no position to comment, nor do I have knowledgable facts on the ABS. I'll learn some here.

That said, I am anxious to hear what Tai Goo has to say.... ;)

Coop

PS: Thanks for the mention, STeven.
Click to expand...


Is the A.B.S. losing the larger “VISION” of it’s founder?
… if so, who’s job is it to fix it?
 
Hi Wulf,

Good suggestions. Sadly they will not work. The current board of directors has no interest in turning over any control/power to anyone.

The other problem is you need to find someone with the combination of a custom knife and marketing back ground. Oh, don't forget this person is not going to be paid.

If you get the chance sometime ask Bruce Voyles, who was hired by the Guild for his very unique qualifications, how his suggestions were accepted.

Unfortunately, the business of custom knives is of little or no concern among most knife makers. Apparently it is of even less concern of the current ABS Board.

Wulf if the membership of the ABS is not going to push for change. They will deserve whatever organization they get.

WWG
 
Let me begin by saying that I am quite fond of th ABS and have learned a LOT from fellowmemeber both on here and at the couple of hammer-ins Ihave attended. With that said, I do think that it is time to reexamine the concept of the members having no vote. I would be prefectly content to have tha guys with MS behind their names have either some kind of "super vote" or even the only vote. There are enough of them nowadays to stir the pot if it needs it. Also, I think that the Board is a bit timid in the legal area. After talking with Joe Keeslar at Batsons, I kind of understand why they Board voted to stop sponsoring cutting competitions.......at least the insurnce argument. Joe told me what the normal premiums were for a show and I can see why there was some sticker shock. As for the "not for profit" issue, they are arguably too conservative. As a recovering lawyer and someone who was a member and adviser to a newspaper trade organization for a number of years, I have seen this before. My former organization set up a separate corporation to run it's moneymaking endeavor which sold "network" ads and ran them in member publications. It later proved unecessary because anything that could have been construed as profit was either going back to the individual "for profit" member companies in the form of sales commission or was being used for the benefit of the members for such things as funding conferences and training. None of the earnings were "retained' in the traditional sense, so the IRS didn't have a problem.
 
I guess I have mixed feelings about the bar being raised. Interest is high the way it is now and I rather like having numerous guys out there in the study of this field taking it to the level they do and talking to some of the guys that have done it it does not sound easy or cheap. I'd hate to see anything happen to take interest away from it or tarnish what Mr. Moran started.

I may regret saying this but I've often thought to myself that had it not been for D2 and Damascus coming along with its eye candy appeal and beautiful patterns that carbon steel may be few and far between in knives at all if not near extinct in this day and age. I think it is near extintinction in productions at this point, or at least nearer than it has been in recent memory. Many companies these days are stainless only and want little or nothing to do with carbon steels. I think that is a bit of a shame personally.

I'm not trying to catch flack but to myself I've often thought these things. I may be way off. I know carbon steel is out there but finding it in a quality folder can be a challenge, especially if you want it in a more modern locking style folder. Many times a good ole boy comes in from the oil fields here in my part of the world with a knife needing work or sharpening and will ask me stuff like, "doesn't anyone make good high carbon blades anymore? I'm so tired of all this stainless." The Sears guy did this last time here installing a new lock on our sliding door that I broke. I started the conversation when I saw his Schrade 80T with half the big blade missing and asked him about it. His response was that 'if I could replace it with another one I'd stop carrying it.'

Others have suggested that it seemed to them that one had to get a custom made and just spend more to get carbon steel or forged blades. I know many don't trust when they see 'Hammer Forged' on productions anyway but personally it would be a great thing to see a big production company do a collaboration with one of the ABS guys doing damascus or 52100 or both. Maybe they have and if so please correct me.

Also, I know a few of these same type guys (guys like me by the way) that would love to see more carbon steel knives available at the local Wal-Mart in the display case. I think many people would buy the knives based on the fact that it was carbon steel without needing to hear anything else. I know that was one of the big complaints when Schrade went under that I still hear quite often.

People liked that Old Timer stuff. Can't say I blame them. I like that "old timer" stuff myself and am currently carrying a 52100 ABS MS blade in my folder that Ray Kirk did up special just for me.

STR
 
severedthumbs said:
should there be a higher level than ms for makers like fisk?
Click to expand...

Interesting idea. In the martial arts that I study, "instructors" are not only senior students, but they are at the top level of proficiency, attested to by competition outside of our "box". In other words, they are judged by outsiders and still ROCK! Our Sensei has given "officia" instructor designation to these senior students. Something like this WOULD work for the ABS.

ptgdvc said:
.....There is absolutely no reason why the artisan makers of forged blades should not enjoy the benefits of an organization that promotes and expands the public's appreciation of their work.
Click to expand...

Totally agreed, Peter. Let us not forget as well that the "artisan makers" as INDIVIDUALS are what bring the glory and attention to the ABS. You would think that the ABS Board should be spelled BORG by the way they try to minimize individual accomplishment recognition.;)

WoodWorkGhost said:
The ABS is a Non-Profit Organization whose only concern is the "Education of people about forging an edged utensil (knife, hatchet, sword, etc.).

The ABS does not care about collectors (unless they are paying to take a class or want to become a member as a AS, JS or MS).

The ABS does not care about marketing, in fact they do not allow its paid up members to use the ABS logo on the makers business cards. As their Lawyers have determined some (read IRS) may misconstrue this as the ABS somehow is receiving a portion of the sale.

Many, to include myself, at first glance assume the ABS is there to support the maker and/or collector. They are not...they are there to EDUCATE.

The ABS Board is primarily concerned with what the board feels should be done to help the board. The politics of knives has become more important than the knives, those who make them and those who buy them.

WWG
Click to expand...

We all agree that there can be no question that the ABS has done a great job of perpetuating the forged blade, the goal that the organization was founded to do. It is CLEARLY time to expand on that goal, and move forward.

IF the Board cannot/will not proactively grasp this expansion as a whole, than it will take the full will of the Member Artisans to rise up, and force change. If half the MS Smiths quit in frustration(probably would not happen, lotta good ol' boys there) that would force change, as an example.

Educating collectors is as if not MORE important than educating makers. The more savvy members of the ABS get this, up to having smaller shows with invited makers and collectors.

STR said:
I guess I have mixed feelings about the bar being raised. Interest is high the way it is now and I rather like having numerous guys out there in the study of this field taking it to the level they do and talking to some of the guys that have done it it does not sound easy or cheap. I'd hate to see anything happen to take interest away from it or tarnish what Mr. Moran started.

I may regret saying this but I've often thought to myself that had it not been for D2 and Damascus coming along with its eye candy appeal and beautiful patterns that carbon steel may be few and far between in knives at all if not near extinct in this day and age.
STR
Click to expand...


Steve, always nice to have you in the discussion.

I'm a forward thinking kind of guy, less interested in history and the past, than what is around the bend. There are plenty of guys, though that love the "old ways".

1. To glance at the ABS "veneer" you would think that all ABS knives look like the "prototypical" bowie with rope filework nickle silver guard, walnut handle, and hand rubbed satin finish carbon blade. All these are good things, but were "hot" 10 years ago. That is stagnation in action, we can see. Those without the ability to "dig" beneath the surface miss the work of makers as DISSIMILAR as Dan Winkler, Cristoph Derringer, Kevin Cashen, Larry Fuegen or Rik Palm(apologies for name butchering in advance).

2. Don't know about productions, always seems like someone is flourishing using carbon, sort of like Bark River, right now. The ABS makers use carbon steels almost to exclusion, and are in no danger of shortage of customers RIGHT NOW. That could change in 30 days, quick as the world works these days. Be interesting to see the feedback from Blade.

Thanks for the thought provoking comments and spirited discussion, everybody, hope we can keep it going without someone getting their "manties" in a wad.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
severedthumbs said:
should there be a higher level than ms for makers like fisk?
Click to expand...

Yes, in my opinion and in the opinion of at lease one veteran MS.

Perhaps a "Grand Master" who would submit a sword, a folder, a dagger, a bowie and a knife of his choice all done with equal quality. That way you would recognize the Fisk, Hancock's, Deans, Dunns, the Larry Fuegen's (and others) for their work. Probably 10% of current masters would fall into this category.

This would be beneficial to everyone; collectors, purveyors, JS smiths, current MS smiths, definitely the top MS smiths and the ABS as it would create more interest for the organization.

I don't see any downside.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Yes, in my opinion and in the opinion of at lease one veteran MS.

Perhaps a "Grand Master" who would submit a sword, a folder, a dagger, a bowie and a knife of his choice all done with equal quality. That way you would recognize the Fisk, Hancock's, Deans, Dunns, the Larry Fuegen's (and others) for their work. Probably 10% of current masters would fall into this category.

This would be beneficial to everyone; collectors, purveyors, JS smiths, current MS smiths, definitely the top MS smiths and the ABS as it would create more interest for the organization.

I don't see any downside.
Click to expand...

Kevin, if the following holds true would this rating be worth anything?

ptgdvc said:
The MS and JS stamps have ONLY one meaning. In a particular place, at a particular time, the maker submited five knives that met or exceeded the ABS standard. Every knife must be judged upon its own merit by the buyer.

They are NOT a guarantee or a seal of approval for future work.
Click to expand...
 
ptgdvc said:
The MS and JS stamps have ONLY one meaning. In a particular place, at a particular time, the maker submited five knives that met or exceeded the ABS standard. Every knife must be judged upon its own merit by the buyer.

They are NOT a guarantee or a seal of approval for future work.
Click to expand...
*********************************

Starkman1 said:
Kevin, if the above holds true would this rating be worth anything?
Click to expand...

The above definitely does NOT hold true IMO regarding a "GMS" for these makers that I'm referring to that would achieve "Grand Master" (if it existed) deliver their customer the same quality every time. Their pride in their work will not allow them to offer less.

I have seen Fisk, Hancock, Dean etc. I did not like, but never that are less than their standard of quality.

That's my point; not all JS and/or MS offer consistent quality, however the top MS do. So they should be rewarded for such.
 
okay.........now I get to play devil's advocate ad point out what is one the BEST features of the ABS. It is perhaps the most inclusive national organization in the knifemaking biz. Think about the others. To be a member of the guild, you must have 4 voting members sign off on your work and then you canbecome a probationary member. I know that there are "associate" members, but as a knifemaker, you must attain that probationary status before you can even say that you are any kind of knifemaking member of the Guild. In comparison, you can join the ABS as a knifemaker and be classified as an apprentice smith right out of the gate and receive the full benefits of membership. It seems to me that even a stock removal maker can join and the forging of bladesis not a reuqirement until you test for JS. And as a member or even an interloper, you can aquire incredible amount of knowlege from the fellow members withno reagrd toanythinglike "trade secrets". All organizations have politics. I know that some folks have quit the ABS and others have chosen not to join in protest (of what, I cannot always be sure) I'm not sure if anyone has ever been thrown out of the ABS like a couple of Guild members were. The stated mission of the ABS has never been to promote OR police the business activities of individual knifemakers. And while the JS and MS rankings may have come to be accepted by some people as some kind of "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" for smiths, I don't think that was necessarily the intent. But realistically, the market balances everything out. The proof of that is seen in the demand for knives by Journeyman Smiths like Don Hanson, John White and others who have never bothered to submit knives for judging like Tai Goo and yet their knives sell for what some might call "Grand Master Smith" prices.
I believe that the ABS continues to carry on with it's mission of preserving and promoting the art of the forged blade. Any suggestions that I would make for changing the organization would be ones that make it more inclusive at all levels, including at the MS testing level. And maybe some that would let the organizations hair down a bit....lol.
As far as the politics go, they are actually quite easy to ignore most of the time. I have heard people gripe about the "good old boy" network and the "in crowd" but that is not really an issue for me. For some it is and they have, as I said before, voted with their feet.
 
Kevin Jones said:
*********************************



The above definitely does NOT hold true IMO regarding a "GMS" for these makers that I'm referring to that would achieve "Grand Master" (if it existed) deliver their customer the same quality every time. Their pride in their work will not allow them to offer less.

I have seen Fisk, Hancock, Dean etc. I did not like, but never that are less than their standard of quality.

That's my point; not all JS and/or MS offer consistent quality, however the top MS do. So they should be rewarded for such.
Click to expand...

I would disagree. I have thought about the Grand Master Smith concept in the past, but in the context of Master Smiths who have gone above and beyond the call of duty to promote the craft and the organization and to assist their fellow knifemakers. Guys like Bill Moran, Jerry Fisk, Jay Hendrickson and a number of others come to mind.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top