What is going on with the ABS?

[Kohai999]

Rusty Polk has been awarded ABS JS Knife of the Year? Jeez, doesn't he still have a pending Hall of Shame knife order that hasn't been resolved? ABS: Who's watching out for the collectors if no one is paying attention to ethics?

Coop

This is an edited response that I got concerning the Knives of the Year-(emphasis, mine)


"The MS and JS knives of the year were made by James Walker and Rusty Polk and given to the ABS for the auction in Atlanta to support the organization. Their names were drawn from a hat containing the names of
those stamp holders who had volunteered to make said knives. Again, they were made to benefit the ABS, and the makers received no financial reward for their generosity."

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

So in the case of someone like Don or John White or Rik Palm, to name a few, do they immediately pass 'Go" and collect $200 because, in my opinion, their work is a fabulous as some of the other guys you mentioned, but they have not been around the ABS as long or waited a while to get their JS stamp Maybe my problem is "historical" The rating sytem we currently have comes from the old guild system. There is nothing above master other than leadership positions. Once you are a master, it is up to you to elevate your work. What would the test be? The current tests are fairy subjective, but have objective criteria, at least in the performance test. Are you suggesting a whole new type of test......or no "test' at all? It seems to me that what you are proposing is less of a rating and more of a "lifetime achievement Oscar", which is precisely what I proposed, but with broader criteria.

I agree with you in that Don would currently fit into that "GMS" clan, however IMO would have to come up through the ABS ranks just like Jerry, Harvey, Steve and Tim etc. as he is doing.

And yes rigorous testing. And I would like to see veteran collectors judging along with other masters. Now I'm not talking collectors like me, but collectors that know something.

 

[Kohai999]

I agree with you in that Don would currently fit into that "GMS" clan, however IMO would have to come up through the ABS ranks just like Jerry, Harvey, Steve and Tim etc. as he is doing.

And yes rigorous testing. And I would like to see veteran collectors judging along with other masters. Now I'm talking collectors like me, but collectors that know something.

I think that you meant to say "not like me", but I may be confused.

I am going back to the "instructor" designation. It makes more sense to me-Instructor Master Smith-IMS-......teachers should be some of the most respected members of our society. I'm all for rigorous judging, but a performance test would have to be designed by people like Jerry, Kevin Cashen, Harvey Dean....a technical committee, presented to the board....something that was mutually agreed upon.

After the weekend, I will distill the salient points made in this thread, and e-mail them to some "concerned" parties, and see if there is any action taken.

I would like to remind readers, AND posters, that the majority of those weighing in LOVE what he ABS has accomplished, and many have tens of thousands of dollars tied up in ABS member forged blades. This is not some group of disenfranchised malcontents(well, maybe me and Joe-)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Wulf]

Rusty Polk has been awarded ABS JS Knife of the Year? Jeez, doesn't he still have a pending Hall of Shame knife order that hasn't been resolved? ABS: Who's watching out for the collectors if no one is paying attention to ethics?

As I understand it (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the maker of the JS knife is selected via a drawing of eligible makers at the annual banquet dinner.

[Edit: Seems STeven already clarified this point as I was reading/typing...]

 

[Starkman1]

This is an edited response that I got concerning the Knives of the Year-(emphasis, mine)


"The MS and JS knives of the year were made by James Walker and Rusty Polk and given to the ABS for the auction in Atlanta to support the organization. Their names were drawn from a hat containing the names of
those stamp holders who had volunteered to make said knives. Again, they were made to benefit the ABS, and the makers received no financial reward for their generosity."

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Yes, they should definitley be applauded for thier generosity. But now look who gets to represent the ABS and its fellow members. By the way, I wonder if that was Leo's knife? Sorry if that comment was in poor taste ......its late and I couldn't resist, and I thought some humor was needed.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think that you meant to say "not like me", but I may be confused.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

STeven, to be very specific, I meant collectors like you should judging, but not collectors like me.

 

[jdm61]

I think that you meant to say "not like me", but I may be confused.

I am going back to the "instructor" designation. It makes more sense to me-Instructor Master Smith-IMS-......teachers should be some of the most respected members of our society. I'm all for rigorous judging, but a performance test would have to be designed by people like Jerry, Kevin Cashen, Harvey Dean....a technical committee, presented to the board....something that was mutually agreed upon.

After the weekend, I will distill the salient points made in this thread, and e-mail them to some "concerned" parties, and see if there is any action taken.

I would like to remind readers, AND posters, that the majority of those weighing in LOVE what he ABS has accomplished, and many have tens of thousands of dollars tied up in ABS member forged blades. This is not some group of disenfranchised malcontents(well, maybe me and Joe-)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

LOL......Actually, I think it is th greatest knife organization of them all, even when compared to the Guild in it's glory days:thumbup: But every organization, even the best ones, will have times when they are not absolutely sure what to do next and sometimes they decide to do nothing.One of the things that I meant by "more inclusive" was my previously comment about giving the MS candidate a list to choose from for their "master knife" I think that a guy who does traditional Japanese cutlery should be allowed to submit a full house tahamagane (sp?) katana as his "master knife" In addition, I think that all judging should be done exclusively by Master Smiths...........sorry collectors and associates...lol

 

[Starkman1]

I certainly don't want to come across as bashing the ABS:foot: . I have nothing but respect for most of the members I have come in contact with. The world is not a perfect place and perhaps the ABS is doing the best they can with what they have. Change is slow to occur wherever tradition is deeply rooted and many traditions are deeply rooted here in the South .

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I support now, and will continue to the ABS in the future, but there are things that I think they could do better. One thing that drives me nuts is that the last membership directory was published five years ago. How much has the membership changed in that time. Don't the board members think it would be a good idea have this booklet updated yearly so that people will be able to get the knifemakers' contact information? Maybe this is part of the lack of interest in promoting the knifemakers, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I have been told that they are working on it, but that it is a big job. They have been telling me that for the last three years. I don't believe it is that big a job. In my opinion there is just no urgency.

 

[Les Robertson]

Anthony wrote:

The ABS is needs a world class website, world class message board, and world class marketing. Everything it has is fairly "third world class". I don't get it.

What is it you guys don't get????

The ABS is about educating people about forging....PERIOD.

They don't care about the web site, they don't care about a message board and they don't care about marketing...world class or otherwise. The fact that they did nothing to update the site with ABS events at the Blade Show is proof of that.

To you collectors out there, stop banging your head against the wall. The ABS does not care about you, your thoughts, your opinions....NOTHING.

There are JS makers who blow away MS makers. Currently there are 112 MS Makers, maybe 30 are currently viable in today's market.

The stamp at either level is just letting people know you have a grasp of those qualifications. Just like a Shodan in any martial art. After years of study you finally know the basics and are now ready to learn.

Do your homework, learn how to identify value pricing and a makers position in the market. Take any knife organization out of the equation...they don't care about you.

WWG

 

[Kohai999]

To you collectors out there, stop banging your head against the wall. The ABS does not care about you, your thoughts, your opinions....NOTHING.

WWG

Don't know about that WWG, got a couple e-mails from some biggies, and the Board is paying attention to this thread, have you not seen some of the names at the bottom of the page?

The written word is very powerful, if for nothing else, getting attention, and creating discussion....here, it is also pretty permanent.

My guess is that this thread will be a topic of discussion in Atlanta, and the timing was NOT a mistake on my part.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Les Robertson]

Keith wrote:

Don't the board members think it would be a good idea have this booklet updated yearly so that people will be able to get the knifemakers' contact information? Maybe this is part of the lack of interest in promoting the knifemakers, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Keith, what is it you don't understand? The ABS Board does not care about promoting their makers in any way, shape or form.

They care even less about you and the other collectors posting here.

The board only cares about what he board can do for the board. That is it.

The market is taking care of the makers in the ABS. Last year the thread after the Blade Show was a collection of posts by collectors who were stunned by the prices at the show. I believe Anthony started this thread.

I will be curious to see if the prices are more in line this year.

Keith, stop pestering the ABS about a directory. They are obviously busy with, um, the web site...no that's not it, marketing their makers....not that is not it. Oh, it is making sure that ABS Members do not put the ABS logo on their business cards and wear the correct hat at the Reno Show.

Speaking of the Reno Show which was such a success that the ABS had a great review on their web site:

3/12/07 The Reno Show was exciting. The winners of the raffle knives were Mike Rudik of San Ramon, CA who won the Bowie by James Rodebaugh and Brian Heyer of Gaylord, MI who won the Bowie by Ed Caffrey. Congratulations.

WOW.....AWESOME REVIEW!!!! See Keith it is extensive reviews such as this that take up the web masters time. As well they utilize so much band width that the ABS cannot put contact information for JS Makers!

Want to know more about the 2008 Reno Expo....sorry only 5 month old information for the 2007 show is available. No show dates or times for 2008. I can tell you that the show is now only 2 days long. Stay tuned there will probably be an update in early January 2008!

The great thing about banging your head against the wall is that it feels good when you stop!

WWG

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi STeven,

I see who is reading this. The Board does not care about you, me or anyone else who does not have a vote in the organization.

They are not going to change the charter. They are going to maintain the status quo. Why? Because that is always how we have done it.

Don't be fooled, reference Keith and his 3 year quest for an updated membership list.

Virtually nothing written about on the web site about the Reno Show.

No information on the show for next year. After all why would you let collectors know when the show is so they can make reservations! Why? Because they don't care about you, me or anyone else who does not have a vote in the organization.

This is not unusual, the Knifemakers Guild is exactly the same way. How did that work out for that organization? Not to good.

STeven I applaud your faith and hope for change. Those who expect nothing are seldom disappointed.

WWG

 

[Keith Montgomery]

WWG, I have discussed much of what you have pointed out here with a slightly disillusioned fairly high up member of the ABS. It seemed that he was getting frustrated with much of what is happening in the organization at this time. If there were more like him in the ABS, there would be changes, but I fear that he is much in the minority. Like I posted earlier, maybe it is time for something different.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Keith,

I have had numerous conversations with MS and JS makers who are frustrated as well.

This dialog has been going on with these makers for over 2 years. Nothing has changed.

I think many makers feel speaking out will get them ostracized by the ABS, so they bite their tongue.

I know JS and MS makers who don't even put that stamp on their knives. They obviously feel their work stands alone.

There is no greater threat to a board of directors than for their membership to finally understand they don't need them.

WWG

 

[jdm61]

Do you know what I want to see happen with the ABS? I want to see it grow a lot more. I want more MS and JS stamps to be awarded to deserving smiths and I want more new smiths brought in, mentored and educated. I want to see bigger and better shows and hammer-ins. And most of all, I want to see the ABS attain a "critical mass" and image with ALL the knife buying public where lots more people....be they military, law enforcement, hunter, user or otherwise....will start to say "why should I pay x dollars for this laser blanked, mass produced, ovemarketed monstrosity when, for the same money or less, in some cases, I can get a hand forged knife made by a guy who controlled the process from A to Z with an attention to detail that would make an IRS auditor say DAYUM!!! DEATH TO MIDTECHS!!!!!!!!!!!! Am I asking too much?

 

[SharpByCoop]

"The MS and JS knives of the year were made by James Walker and Rusty Polk and given to the ABS for the auction in Atlanta to support the organization. Their names were drawn from a hat containing the names of
those stamp holders who had volunteered to make said knives. Again, they were made to benefit the ABS, and the makers received no financial reward for their generosity."

Thanks Steven. That changes things, rightly. I applaud this generosity, if not at the expense of good ethics. Glad bigwigs are looking.

Coop

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Hi STeven,

I see who is reading this. The Board does not care about you, me or anyone else who does not have a vote in the organization.

WWG

As someone sticking their toe in the ocean that is the world of custom knife collecting, this comment does not sit well with me. If there is any truth to it WWG, no matter what their goal is, they are serving artisans who make their living, most of them, from knifemaking, and collectors and users are the ones who are supporting these knifemakers. Now, these knifemakers don't owe the collector/user anything at all, but then neither do the collectors/users. I have no dog in this, I only know that the ABS has journeyman smiths, and master smiths, and you need to pass a test to get that stamp. Thats all I know, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, I have mainly bought from makers who have not gotten an ABS stamp, or who really don't care one way or the other if they have an ABS stamp. Remember, I'm just starting out in the custom market.

While I realize that having too many voices to be heard can cause havoc, and while I don't know if this is the boards stand or not, I hope that they pay attention to those who are not on the board, mainly their monetary supporters, because if they don't, then the ABS stamp that is so highly revered will not mean much.

I have much respect for knife makers, when I first read an article by Ed Fowler in Blade, I thought that he must be a millionaire living on his big ranch, and admittedly, embarassingly, I posted as much. I learned from him, and others, that while they are not paupers, they are not living the high life. These makers come to the ABS seeking guidance. I'm starting to ramble, I was really bothered by that remark, not angry at you WWG, but if that is the truth, then that does not bode well. I'll leave my comments at that, they have been said already by others with more experience and weight than I.

Dan

After re reading WWG's following posts, maybe this is just his idea. My comments are just made to reinforce that I hope the ABS cares about their supporters, both makers, collectors and users. Since I do not know many ABS smiths, and none well enough to call friends, I will state that I have yet to pass judgement on this issue. My comments above may come off as inflammatory, but they were not intended to.

 

[STR]

Anthony wrote:



What is it you guys don't get????

The ABS is about educating people about forging....PERIOD.

They don't care about the web site, they don't care about a message board and they don't care about marketing...world class or otherwise. The fact that they did nothing to update the site with ABS events at the Blade Show is proof of that.

To you collectors out there, stop banging your head against the wall. The ABS does not care about you, your thoughts, your opinions....NOTHING.

There are JS makers who blow away MS makers. Currently there are 112 MS Makers, maybe 30 are currently viable in today's market.

The stamp at either level is just letting people know you have a grasp of those qualifications. Just like a Shodan in any martial art. After years of study you finally know the basics and are now ready to learn.

Do your homework, learn how to identify value pricing and a makers position in the market. Take any knife organization out of the equation...they don't care about you.

WWG

This quote above reminds me of many things I saw in dentistry setting up new practices during my career and even consulting with some very established ones too now that I think about it. Like the ABS MS, in the business of dentistry you have the dentist. He knows his stuff, can do anything regarding the dentistry itself so long as all he has to deal with is teeth but he/she knows very little or nothing about how to draw in patients, how to deal with customers outside of dental needs, how to handle billing, book keeping, scheduling and on and on. Little if any of these topics is covered in school with exception to some superficial surface brazing of the subjects.

For many once out of school its a rude awakening. Its a matter of delegation. Perhaps its time that part of the ABS start delegating some outside help for at least the scheduling and orgainizing of events. Does the person or persons doing these tasks for the ABS really need to be one of the smiths? Its obviously apparent to at least some that while the smiths know knives they may not have mastered other tasks related to running such things.

I don't know how your dues are set up, or if they are part of the initial costs, or what. I really am not at all familar with how its done. It would seem a simple matter to set up a % of that to pay someone skilled in such things as orgainizing and scheduling to take the load off so the smiths can focus on what they specialize in though.

STR

 

[Don Hanson III]

The ABS could benefit greatly from a world class website and world class marketing (as Anthony mentioned). This is really all the ABS needs to do to move forward or it would be a great start anyway.

I will say, the ABS Journal has much improved over the black and white news letter of years past. If we want to see better/more knife photos, we need to send them in.

I joined the ABS to support the organization, nothing more, nothing less. I,m a full time knife maker and I support the custom knife community anyway I can. The ABS has been very good for custom knives and I would like to see it prosper.

It's up to the individual maker to promote his/her self/work and up to the knife buyers to weed out the bad ones.