What is going on with the ABS?

[Kevin Jones]

I would disagree. I have thought about the Grand Master Smith concept in the past, but in the context of Master Smiths who have gone above and beyond the call of duty to promote the craft and the organization and to assist their fellow knifemakers. Guys like Bill Moran, Jerry Fisk, Jay Hendrickson and a number of others come to mind.

I don't understand Joe.
What do you disagree with???

 

[OldPhysics]

One can certainly be considered a serious maker, and not be ABS. That said, the ABS ranking confers a certain weight, and trust that basic tenents of honor, methodology of production and accountablity will be held.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I am only now learning how to be a collector. Quite new at it.

I am, as I suspect many collectors are, a professional. As a professional, I hold a number of certifications and professional affiliations. It's one of the hallmarks of professionalism.

So naturally, I tend to look for similar behaviors in professional knifemakers. That lends ABS ranking that 'certain weight' mentioned by Mr. Garsson.

Looks like I need to be a little more careful.

 

[Kohai999]

I'm not sure if anyone has ever been thrown out of the ABS like a couple of Guild members were. The stated mission of the ABS has never been to promote OR police the business activities of individual knifemakers. And while the JS and MS rankings may have come to be accepted by some people as some kind of "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" for smiths, I don't think that was necessarily the intent. But realistically, the market balances everything out. The proof of that is seen in the demand for knives by Journeyman Smiths like Don Hanson, John White and others who have never bothered to submit knives for judging like Tai Goo and yet their knives sell for what some might call "Grand Master Smith" prices.....

I believe that the ABS continues to carry on with it's mission of preserving and promoting the art of the forged blade. Any suggestions that I would make for changing the organization would be ones that make it more inclusive at all levels, including at the MS testing level. And maybe some that would let the organizations hair down a bit....lol.

1. Any organization should certainly police itself the the point of stripping "thieves" of their ranking. It looks bad to a good organization that is even remotely attached to those that would discredit it, by taking someone's money, and not making the knives, like Harvey Draper and Rod Chappel did back in the day.

2. Don Hanson makes a great knife, maintains high visibility, and has impeccable work ethic. He is also a great guy. He has never used ABS/no ABS to advance himself, has squarely taken responsiblity for his own success. Some guys are not that talented, driven or lucky. They NEED the ABS to help advance them. I am just suggesting that the ABS make this support more of a priority, than simply teaching them how to make a knife(which may or may not be the actual case)

3. Less inclusive, good, more inclusive bad. That is my final answer!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

1. Any organization should certainly police itself the the point of stripping "thieves" of their ranking. It looks bad to a good organization that is even remotely attached to those that would discredit it, by taking someone's money, and not making the knives, like Harvey Draper and Rod Chappel did back in the day.

2. Don Hanson makes a great knife, maintains high visibility, and has impeccable work ethic. He is also a great guy. He has never used ABS/no ABS to advance himself, has squarely taken responsiblity for his own success. Some guys are not that talented, driven or lucky. They NEED the ABS to help advance them. I am just suggesting that the ABS make this support more of a priority, than simply teaching them how to make a knife(which may or may not be the actual case)

3. Less inclusive, good, more inclusive bad. That is my final answer!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

"less inclusive, good" to me means that you end up with something like a guild in the medieval sense of the word where the unspoken purpose IS to exclude. Something like "there are 120 Master Smiths and we can't make enough money so lets raise the standards so we only get a new Master Smith every 2 years or so instead of 5 or 6 per year." As for statement 1, I was not aware of Chappel and Draper. I did remember hearig about Dan Dennehy having a similar problem. Oe of the underlyong issues in this whole argument is what I would call the art-business nexus. Sometimes they don' play well together....lol There was a discussion about "excentric" makers a while back at part of a question of wether D.E. Henry shouldbe admitted to the Blade Hall of Fame. All of the arguments against revolved around his legendary reputations as a flaming a**hole. But at the end of the day, he made fabulous knives are raised the bar as far as expectations for fit and finish. Bad business sense and possbily a useless human being in some people's opinion, but a great artist. I guess the opposite would be the Mick Striders of the knife world. I think that the ABS has gotten around the "policing" function by saying that you can't use the logo in your ads, etc. Maybe not the most effective way to do it and probably not the primary reason, but arguably an unintended consequence. There arguably is a downside to "policing" I hear people talk about the ABS 101 Bowieand edge quenching being useless for anything other than your performance test blade. etc. But the ABS pretty much stays out of your bidness otherwise and tome that is a good thing. If hsitory teaches me anything, it is that I'm not so sure that I want the ABs to become the American Knifemakers Baldesmithig Guild Society......lol I like the stated mission of the ABS. There may be some ways to tweak the process so that the mission can be succesfully accomplished, but i am not all that keen on chaging that basic mission. Unfortunately, the ABs may have had a bit of that other mission foisted on it as the organization grew and the Guild imploded.

 

[jdm61]

I don't understand Joe.
What do you disagree with???

Don';t agree with the GMS tag being awarded based solely on fit and finish. My idea was to make it more of an honorary thing based on contribution to the art, etc. I used the term originally to describe Bill Moran, who, in the opinion a number of collectors, did some fairly "casual" work in th F & F department and would not qualify under your proposed standard

 

[Kohai999]

"less inclusive, good" to me means that you end up with something like a guild in the medieval sense of the word where the unspoken purpose IS to exclude.

In order to make a higher priority of mentorship/salesmanship training....it MAY very well be advantageous to become MORE limiting/discriminating in who gets in.

Joe, I mean this in the most honest way...if you are a barely passable JS candidate who now makes sucky knives, but again, BARELY PASSABLE for JS, maybe the ABS is doing you, possible customers and the ABS a great favor by NOT admitting you.

Food for thought.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

In order to make a higher priority of mentorship/salesmanship training....it MAY very well be advantageous to become MORE limiting/discriminating in who gets in.

Joe, I mean this in the most honest way...if you are a barely passable JS candidate who now makes sucky knives, but again, BARELY PASSABLE for JS, maybe the ABS is doing you, possible customers and the ABS a great favor by NOT admitting you.

Food for thought.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Barely passable is still passable. The market will sort out the rest. The standards for JS are pretty darned high. Many a decent looking servicable user would flunk, including one that I am holding right now. Yes, I resemble that "barely passable" remark as i speed toward my eligibility in '08. But I happen to be "self policing" ............or paranoid and/orembarrassed if you will I have seen some JS knives that were not pleasing to my eye because of their design. Not sure if they passed or not, but design is subjective, evenin the judging standards it would appear as long as the knives are functional and proportional.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

The ABS is needs a world class website, world class message board, and world class marketing. Everything it has is fairly "third world class". I don't get it.

 

[jdm61]

The ABS is needs a world class website, world class message board, and world class marketing. Everything it has is fairly "third world class". I don't get it.

Now THAT I will agree with wholeheartedly!!!!!!!!! And we wouldn't have to stage a palace coup to get it done

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I find it very easy to figure out which ABS makers are at the top of their field, and which ones have sat back on their laurels. I do feel however that every MS should have to adhere to the same standard. It just doesn't make any sense to me that just because someone has been an MS for a long time that he/she should be able to get by with substandard work. Though it will probably never happen, I believe that recertification would be a good thing.

It is also my opinion that the ABS should do more to promote the makers, not just the knives. A change of mandate would not be a bad thing, but is there enough will within the organization to adapt to change? I haven't seen it. It seems like the status quo is good enough. It would also be good for the ABS to start to educate their members on being good business people, but it is unlikely that they have the resources, or the will to do so.

Maybe the ABS board is happy with the way things are. Maybe it will take the introduction of another Association that is willing to be innovative in their approach to guiding, educating and promoting their members.

Though the ABS has many of the finest bladesmith as members, many of the best are not members. I think that politics is the reason for many. They just can't be bothered with the BS. At least that is the impression that I have been left with.

 

[jdm61]

I find it very easy to figure out which ABS makers are at the top of their field, and which ones have sat back on their laurels. I do feel however that every MS should have to adhere to the same standard. It just doesn't make any sense to me that just because someone has been an MS for a long time that he/she should be able to get by with substandard work. Though it will probably never happen, I believe that recertification would be a good thing.

It is also my opinion that the ABS should do more to promote the makers, not just the knives. A change of mandate would not be a bad thing, but is there enough will within the organization to adapt to change? I haven't seen it. It seems like the status quo is good enough. It would also be good for the ABS to start to educate their members on being good business people, but it is unlikely that they have the resources, or the will to do so.

Maybe the ABS board is happy with the way things are. Maybe it will take the introduction of another Association that is willing to be innovative in their approach to guiding, educating and promoting their members.

Though the ABS has many of the finest bladesmith as members, many of the best are not members. I think that politics is the reason for many. They just can't be bothered with the BS. At least that is the impression that I have been left with.

If I had to come up with one problem that the ABS has, it would be that there is no mechanism for changes that a majority of the general membership might desire other than going with hat in hand to the Board and hoping for the best.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Don';t agree with the GMS tag being awarded based solely on fit and finish. My idea was to make it more of an honorary thing based on contribution to the art, etc. I used the term originally to describe Bill Moran, who, in the opinion a number of collectors, did some fairly "casual" work in th F & F department and would not qualify under your proposed standard

You are right Joe we don't agree here. I do think support and contribution to the art are extremely important, however I do believe that certification is solely about the maker's skill and the performance, fit, finish of the knives he makes.

 

[Kohai999]

You are right Joe we don't agree here. I do think support and contribution to the art are extremely important, however I do believe that certification is solely about the maker's skill and the performance, fit, finish of the knives he makes.

Ditto that, they have the Hall of Fame for the founding greats, right?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

The ABS is needs a world class website, world class message board, and world class marketing. Everything it has is fairly "third world class". I don't get it.

Amen to that Anthony.
Currently there is no information regarding the Blade Show, ABS auction, auction knives, ABS banquet, on the ABS website.

That's a missed opportunity.......

Excuse me. There is still information on the 2006 Blade Show.

 

[Don Hanson III]

The ABS is needs a world class website, world class message board, and world class marketing. Everything it has is fairly "third world class". I don't get it.

Amen from me also :thumbup:

 

[jdm61]

You are right Joe we don't agree here. I do think support and contribution to the art are extremely important, however I do believe that certification is solely about the maker's skill and the performance, fit, finish of the knives he makes.

So in the case of someone like Don or John White or Rik Palm, to name a few, do they immediately pass 'Go" and collect $200 because, in my opinion, their work is a fabulous as some of the other guys you mentioned, but they have not been around the ABS as long or waited a while to get their JS stamp Maybe my problem is "historical" The rating sytem we currently have comes from the old guild system. There is nothing above master other than leadership positions. Once you are a master, it is up to you to elevate your work. What would the test be? The current tests are fairy subjective, but have objective criteria, at least in the performance test. Are you suggesting a whole new type of test......or no "test' at all? It seems to me that what you are proposing is less of a rating and more of a "lifetime achievement Oscar", which is precisely what I proposed, but with broader criteria.

 

[SharpByCoop]

Since the level of the bar has been rightfully raised through competition and judging in the last years, there can be a third, optional, category for those existing MS's who wish to submit. Grand Master Smith = GMS

I do not believe pulling a recertification would ever happen, nor would it be healthy. As has been mentioned, let the market decide the worthiness of past merits and current work. This is where the education coming from the ABS towards collectors would be an aid. We are doing a good job of it right here in discussion forums.

Rusty Polk has been awarded ABS JS Knife of the Year? Jeez, doesn't he still have a pending Hall of Shame knife order that hasn't been resolved? ABS: Who's watching out for the collectors if no one is paying attention to ethics?

Coop

 

[Starkman1]

*********************************



The above definitely does NOT hold true IMO regarding a "GMS" for these makers that I'm referring to that would achieve "Grand Master" (if it existed) deliver their customer the same quality every time. Their pride in their work will not allow them to offer less.

I have seen Fisk, Hancock, Dean etc. I did not like, but never that are less than their standard of quality.

That's my point; not all JS and/or MS offer consistent quality, however the top MS do. So they should be rewarded for such.

Kevin, the makers you mention are top notch. Unfortunately, their MS stamp looks the same as any other MS......but we know better. Dare I propose instead of rewarding top makers, penalize those that aren't consistent in regards to thier rating or those who's behavior is unbecoming of an ABS JS or MS by stripping them of thier rating?

I am only now learning how to be a collector. Quite new at it.

I am, as I suspect many collectors are, a professional. As a professional, I hold a number of certifications and professional affiliations. It's one of the hallmarks of professionalism.

So naturally, I tend to look for similar behaviors in professional knifemakers. That lends ABS ranking that 'certain weight' mentioned by Mr. Garsson.

Looks like I need to be a little more careful.

We think alike. I was once a member of the American Fisheries Society, and to become certified as a Fishery Scientist you had to meet certain academic requirements and have related work experience. Several years ago the organization adopted a recertification process requiring that new Scientists gain points every year to keep their certification. Scientists that were certified prior to this were not required to go through this process. Points were obtained by attending professional meeetings, workshops, taking additional classes, and publishing manuscripts. This ensures that AFS Scientists remain abreast of new information and technology which strengthens the individual, the profession, and the organization.
Bob

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Rusty Polk has been awarded ABS JS Knife of the Year? Jeez, doesn't he still have a pending Hall of Shame knife order that hasn't been resolved? ABS: Who's watching out for the collectors if no one is paying attention to ethics?

Coop
__________________

The good old boy network is strong and oblivious all at once.

 

[jdm61]

Since the level of the bar has been rightfully raised through competition and judging in the last years, there can be a third, optional, category for those existing MS's who wish to submit. Grand Master Smith = GMS

I do not believe pulling a recertification would ever happen, nor would it be healthy. As has been mentioned, let the market decide the worthiness of past merits and current work. This is where the education coming from the ABS towards collectors would be an aid. We are doing a good job of it right here in discussion forums.

Rusty Polk has been awarded ABS JS Knife of the Year? Jeez, doesn't he still have a pending Hall of Shame knife order that hasn't been resolved? ABS: Who's watching out for the collectors if no one is paying attention to ethics?

Coop

And this raises yet another question. The current standards for MS, particularly for the dagger, pretty much demand something that is not only "art" but close to perfect in the fit and finish department. What would the standard for GMS be? Would you have to lower the standards for MS slightly to make room for this new classification or would it only be for guys who had been around a while who's old MS knives might not pass by today's standards? Would it end up being just being a waiting period before you could submit some more MS quality knives?