What is going on with the ABS?

Juat a quick comment for lwrhea before I head back out to the shop. You are absolutely correct in that no one is responsible for my advancemeny or training/education than me. I take full responsibility for that and have come a long way since I left them. The school started a learning process that I have personally continued, as it should be.

With that in mind, we live in a society where we pay for goods and services. When no services are rendered, we are reluctant to pay. If the ABS is a non profit charity, maybe I could write the dues off as a deduction.

Others may come from all over the world to test or attend their school. I travelled 2000 miles to it 3 times. If someone wants JS or MS behind their name as a marketing decision, more power to them and I wish them well. They can pay whatever that costs them to do so.

I don't feel that need. I will make the knives I want to, however I want to and do so happily. I'll learn as much as I can whenever I can because that is my responsibility. I will turn out the best knives I can because that is a commitment to excellence.

I made the marketing decision to not need the initials. My choice. I made the decison to leave because no goods or services were being rendered. I regret none of my decisions. I love making knives and learning to better myself however I can. The path is entirely my own. I expect others will follow their own paths, as things should be.

Regards,

Gene
 
reply to TROUT TAMER you don't know squat about bringing your five knives to be tested for ms and js. the performance test is done passed, when you submit your 5 knives for judging. fit and finish are the most important issue looked at. and the bar has been raised alot in the last years. why don't you guys spent as much time putting work into your knives as you do on this forum you might be able to raise that bar a little higher.
 
Hey Dickie, how are you doing? It's great to see you taking part in this thread.

I don't think that I have come away from this thread with the impression that people are saying the bar hasn't been raised. I think that just the opposite has been stated. In fact, people have been saying that the bar has been raised to the point that there are JS that are producing knives that are better than many of the old time MS. That was the reason that many have stated that it would be a good idea for MS to have to re-certify every once in awhile.

Starting a new organization would be a daunting task. It would have to be made up of highly respected members of the knife community to be taken seriously. It would be starting from nothing and would probably take years to mature into an organization that would make a difference. It is easy to say that people should start something themselves. It is another thing to actually get it off the ground. Are there enough people willing to put out the huge effort that will be necessary to make something like that work?

The reason that people are looking to the ABS to do it is that they are a well established and respected organization. It would be much easier for them to move in the directions mentioned than it would be for a new organization to get a foothold. What it is, is a lot of hopeful thinking.

What I do think the ABS should be willing to do is to not only promote the forged blade, but to also promote the members that are making the forged blades. They should also take an active part in educating their smiths on sound business practices. If they were to do that I firmly believe that they would also be doing a better job of promoting forged blades.

Anyway, this may all just be pie in the sky.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
What I do think the ABS should be willing to do is to not only promote the forged blade, but to also promote the members that are making the forged blades. They should also take an active part in educating their smiths on sound business practices. If they were to do that I firmly believe that they would also be doing a better job of promoting forged blades.
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Amen.

Roger
 
Lots involved here that I am not in tune enough to comment on, but I have a hard time understanding the website not being kept up to date. That shows a lack of interest in any promotion of the makers or the organization. What a small step it would be to begin with that situation? Look what the Bladeforum bowie auction group accomplished in a short period of time! It just takes some energy directed in the right way.

- Joe
 
I don't think starting a new organization is the answer. That is not what I started this thread to accomplish, nor to intimate that the ABS was not doing a good job.

The ABS is doing a good job, when it could be a GREAT job!

Instant recap of recommendations:

1. Update the website, regularly. It is currently an embarassment, even A.G. should be able to agree with that.

2. Develop a program for ongoing certification of MS's, and POSSIBLY develop a higher ranking of smith than MS.

3. Recognize individual acheivement occasionally, even if it is by those that are not "popular" with the Board. A monthly web spotlight would be a nice start.

4. Bring in more collectors by developing a comprehensive marketing approach to the ABS as an organization by utilizing all resources available.

5. I'll say that there is a forging world going on independent of Arkansas, would be nice if we got to see that. ABANA shows a bit, but they are not knife oriented.

IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK??

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I think it is a misconception that the A.B.S is about promoting the forged blade in a universal sense.

It is about promoting a certain limited interpretation of what a forged blade should be. I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it doesn't become misleading.
 
Tai Goo said:
I think it is a misconception that the A.B.S is about promoting the forged blade in a universal sense.

It is about promoting a certain limited interpretation of what a forged blade should be. I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it doesn't become misleading.
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I must disagree just a tiny bit, Tai. Admittedly, a lot of ABS smiths have gravitated toward the styles of some of the more famous smiths, but in theory, the only stylistic requiement I can see for the test knives (as opposed to the performance test blade) is that they must be "usable", even if they are too nice to actually be used. From what I have seen of your work, even your most elaborate and fanciful blades are, generally speaking, still highly usable pieces of cutlery, albeit not likely to be used for fear of scratching them up:D
When I hear people talking about "ABS 101 bowies" (which generally means Fisk 101....lol) my response would be "in contrast to Loveless 101 hunters, Walker 101 liner lock folders, or Randall 101 fighters?" I am even seeing some "Goo 101 socket bush blades" on some of the forums nowadays:thumbup: :D
 
No need to rub salt in!

What if all bladesmiths were required to wear blue jeans, a sport coat, neck tie, cowboy boots and a Stetson? Hee hee :D
 
Tai Goo said:
No need to rub salt in!

What if all bladesmiths were required to wear blue jeans, a sport coat, neck tie, cowboy boots and a Stetson? Hee hee :D
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Well, I, for one, would have to buy the hat and boots. I am currently overstocked in the coat and tie department:D
 
jdm61 said:
Well, I, for one, would have to buy the hat and boots. I am currently overstocked in the coat and tie department:D
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I’d have to go out and buy the whole outfit. :D

Hey!
Seriously, It’s no secret that I’m not a big fan of the whole “standardized testing” and “smith ranking” concept. But, If you are going to do it,… it needs to be done right.
 
Tai Goo said:
I’d have to go out and buy the whole outfit. :D

Hey!
Seriously, It’s no secret that I’m not a big fan of the whole “standardized testing” and “smith ranking” concept. But, If you are going to do it,… it needs to be done right.
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Yeah, Tai, but you don't HAVE to be a fan of testing or ratings. You just sit out there in the desert being all artistic and eccentric and people come by and throw money at you whenever you make something:D Now admittedly, you had to work very hard for many years to get into this postion, but the fact remains that it's great work if you can get it....lol;)
 
Got my Spring 2007 ABS journal today.

I really like the 2007 colaborative Board Knife and Master Knife made by James Walker. I also think the 2007 Journeyman Knife is pretty darn nice. The look is basic, but the steel and ivory look great and so does the fit and finish.

Buddy's article is classy and well written, as always.

The is a little snippet in the Chairman's Corner about the 2007 ABS directory being at the printers. I was wondering if we were ever going to see onother directory.

So, what are the chances that Greg Neely will bring some new ideas to the Chairmanship?
 
Neely is very sharp and will have a big impact (for the better) on the ABS....if the board will support him.
 
Now...I am not the great beater of the ABS drum, however I am proud to be a member and will continue to do my part. I am also not comparing the ABS to the Guild, but I was a prob. member of the Guild, and droped out because of the strife going on at the time. I decided to put my energy into the ABS as it had more to offer me in furthuring my career. It has been a great asset to me. I also believe the ABS is at a turing point in it's existence. Not a bad thing, it has done a fine job of fullfilling it's misson of promoting the forged blade. Even for makers like Tai, the efforts of the ABS in bringing awareness of forged blades has helped all of us hammer guys. I certainly don't think that just because you forge, that you need to be a member.

Like Steven, I would like to see more buyers being brought in and educated, and less emphasis on more makers. ( The problem is that if you show someone how to forge, as many will want to do it themselves as not). I would also like to see more stylistic diversification in the makers up and coming. Much of that is up to the buying public anyway. Lots of Fiskish bowies, but someone has to be giving them a home....

I DON'T want to see a recertification or higher rating than MS. The MS test is stressfull enough, and it isn't suposed to be a "Good houskeeping " seal of approval. It is a rating awarded to a maker who exhibits the level of work worthy of passing the requirements of both performance and quality. If Maker X passes once and then puts out low quality work, then it is HIS problem.....the ABS. I would hate for the ABS to become a policing entity, and so would the ABS.

Bottom line is this....if you want change.....get invloved and change it. You want to see something other than Arkansas Bowies.....order soemthing else. Promote the style you like to the makers you feel worthy of owning.

From a makers point of view, if you make something that isn't an order....it is a risk, so you want to appeal to a broad market. The Arkansas bowie market is...pretty broad, so it is a safe bet.
 
Bailey Bradshaw said:
Bottom line is this....if you want change.....get invloved and change it. You want to see something other than Arkansas Bowies.....order soemthing else. Promote the style you like to the makers you feel worthy of owning.

From a makers point of view, if you make something that isn't an order....it is a risk, so you want to appeal to a broad market. The Arkansas bowie market is...pretty broad, so it is a safe bet.
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For awhile I tended to order fairly standard bowies, but the last three or four knives that I have ordered are anything but.

It's not easy to effect change unless you have the ability to become a part of the group that makes decisions.
 
Bailey Bradshaw said:
(The problem is that if you show someone how to forge, as many will want to do it themselves as not).
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That's not a problem, that's a good thing. Nothing educates a collector like making a few knives themselves. I should know. :D
 
Bailey Bradshaw said:
Now...I am not the great beater of the ABS drum, however I am proud to be a member and will continue to do my part. I am also not comparing the ABS to the Guild, but I was a prob. member of the Guild, and droped out because of the strife going on at the time. I decided to put my energy into the ABS as it had more to offer me in furthuring my career. It has been a great asset to me. I also believe the ABS is at a turing point in it's existence. Not a bad thing, it has done a fine job of fullfilling it's misson of promoting the forged blade. Even for makers like Tai, the efforts of the ABS in bringing awareness of forged blades has helped all of us hammer guys. I certainly don't think that just because you forge, that you need to be a member.

Like Steven, I would like to see more buyers being brought in and educated, and less emphasis on more makers. ( The problem is that if you show someone how to forge, as many will want to do it themselves as not). I would also like to see more stylistic diversification in the makers up and coming. Much of that is up to the buying public anyway. Lots of Fiskish bowies, but someone has to be giving them a home....

I DON'T want to see a recertification or higher rating than MS. The MS test is stressfull enough, and it isn't suposed to be a "Good houskeeping " seal of approval. It is a rating awarded to a maker who exhibits the level of work worthy of passing the requirements of both performance and quality. If Maker X passes once and then puts out low quality work, then it is HIS problem.....the ABS. I would hate for the ABS to become a policing entity, and so would the ABS.

Bottom line is this....if you want change.....get invloved and change it. You want to see something other than Arkansas Bowies.....order soemthing else. Promote the style you like to the makers you feel worthy of owning.

From a makers point of view, if you make something that isn't an order....it is a risk, so you want to appeal to a broad market. The Arkansas bowie market is...pretty broad, so it is a safe bet.
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Dead on,Mr.Bradshaw. However, I think that the custom and semi-custom pistol market might be a good example to look at when thinking about how many more makers will be coming into the fold and how to find customers for them. Who would have thought 20 years ago that there would be enough of a market for hot rodded 1911 pistols that there would be a number of brand new companies like Kimber, Springfield Armory and Para Ordnance making them and Colt competitors like Smith and Sig would be knocking out their own versions, not to mention the big custom operations like Les Baer, Ed Brown and Wilson Combat.. The trick is to discover how to get that "critical mass" of demand. I stated earlier in this VERY long thread that for guys like me, one potential market could be folks who are paying $300 plus for these factory knives like Strider and Busse, or even the Randall guys. The one thing that we can offer that even smaller manufacturers can't is personal service and CUSTOM work. One way that we may attain this critiical mass is if, as the demand for high end knives continues to go up, the "mid tech" guys cnoose to no longer compete on price. We are kind of seeing that now with Strider's pricing. I bought one of Craig Camerer's field grade fighters from a purveyor a while back and paid the same that I would have paid for a paracord handled Strider. Who would have thought that the majority of the smiths in the ABS could compete on price with a glorifed factory knife? Much of the discussion here has been about collectors and collectable knives. That is a limited market. The usermarker is much broader, but someone isgoing tohave to educate the buyers because for a lot of people, Buck, Gerber, et al. good enough even though they shell out thousands of dollars for their firearms.
You are correct when you say that the ABS is at a crossroads. It has done a very good job, but it may be getting to the point where it is getting too big for the current structure.
 
Mr Jerry,

You were informative but said that if I had any more questions, ask them. I did. Was that just to placate or did you mean it, because it's the same answer I got from Red. Silence. I know you're getting ready for the show, but you were following this fairly closely. If you want to PM the answers, fine, but I did tke you at your word.

Mr Gene
 
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