What is going on with the ABS?

ptgdvc said:
That is a very nice idea, but everything I have heard tells me that, the current Directors of the ABS, have zero interest or desire in "taking the ABS to a whole new level". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You also can't give them imagination and vision.

BTW, who exactly is on the Board of Directors of the ABS?
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Yep Peter, just what I was thinking while writing the post.
As a member, I would like to see the ABS going in that direction, but then I'm just one member and just a collector or associate member at that.
As I stated earlier, would like for collectors to be able to take a larger role in the organization.
 
This thread comes up every year on BFC for the last 5 years. It is appparent that the ABS has no interest in taking ny of our suggestions or advice.
Lets just go to the Blade show and buy some knives :)
 
Kevin Jones said:
Yep Peter, just what I was thinking while writing the post.
As a member, I would like to see the ABS going in that direction, but then I'm just one member and just a collector or associate member at that.
As I stated earlier, would like for collectors to be able to take a larger role in the organization.
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I can list the board members. Most of them will be recognizable names.

Joseph Keeslar - Chairman
Jerry Fisk - Vice-Chairman
B. R. Hughes - Secretary & Founder
Greg Neely - Treasurer

Board of Directors

James Phillips
Jeffrey Harris
Jay Hendrickson
Johnny Perry
C. Houston Price
Bert Gaston
Rick Dunkerly
Steve Dunn
Harvey Dean


The above list comes from the winter 2006 issue of the American Bladesmith journal. I haven't received my spring 2007 issue yet.
 
You know, after reading all the preceding posts, I have noticed something interesting. There are two distinct factions represented here. Well, three. There are those who think the ABS is all good and doing a great job as it. Status quo.

But among the dissenters, there are two camps. The first is saying that the ABS is not doing enough for them. They have to travel too far to test. There is no support where they live. There are not enough hammer-ins or shows or events close to them.

The other camp is saying that the ABS is not doing enough to further the craft and perpetuate the species, so to speak.

This is an interesting social commentary. Even those complaining about the status quo and begging for change have two distinctly different motives. One is interested in personal gain, and the other is interested in group gain. This is a deep-seated motivation that cannot be changed in my experience. There are those who will do what it takes to succeed and grow with or without help. There are those who relish a challenge and embrace the opportunity for struggle. Others will always wait for someone else to reach out their hand before they act.

In the last few years, smiths have come from Australia, South Africa and Brazil to test. They clearly gave up a lot more than a smith living in the southeast to test, but I would argue that their reward is greater as well. They went through a greater struggle and therefore their accomplishment is worth more. They all passed with flying colors, by the way.

As to the ABS being unfair in judging, that’s just bull. No one makes a perfect knife, and knives with flaws pass all the time. But if you see a failing knife next to a passing knife, there is a noticeable and clear difference. I think it’s a shame that most people who fail never re-test. They get their ego involved and they come up with all these reasons why people don’t like them, or their knives or the state their from or their haircut. Losers will always look for an excuse.

Ray Rybar failed his first attempt at MS. He was advised that if he just take the same knives home and clean them up a little and re-test the following year, he’d pass. He didn't. He went home and made five new knives and the next year he not only passed, but he won best in show at the Blade show. That’s the way a winner does it.

The only way to improve the ABS is to get our heads right about our motivation first. Then there's hope.
 
Burt Foster said:
The only way to improve the ABS is to get our heads right about our motivation first. Then there's hope.
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I totally agree Burt, but isn't that always the problem whether addressing politics, corporate direction/policy or just where to dine?

I thoroughly believe we could all come to a consensus as to a unified direction if we all agreed to dedicate ourselves to that end. Corporations are forced to and succeed at it on a regular basics.
 
Burt Foster said:
The only way to improve the ABS is to get our heads right about our motivation first. Then there's hope.
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Even if the motivation is to improve the ABS as an organization, will suggestions presented to the board be looked at objectively, or with closed minds? Will ideas presented to them by associate members hold any importance, or will they be summarily rejected? Is the board open to change, or is it happy with the status quo? Do it's members opinions and thoughts matter to the board? Is there any impetus for change, or do members of the board think that things are just fine the way they are?
 
Burt,

Wouldn't the charter of the ABS, that is educating people about the forged arts include introducing itself to as many people as possible? Isn't part of the education process giving information to any and all who want it. Examples of that information would be contact information for JS Makers and The Board. Neither of these categories of information is available on the web site...why not? How about the Reno Show? Shouldn't the ABS be providing information as to where, when and the hours their Show will be? Simple things that are not being addressed.

If the answer is no, then I misunderstand what the charter is.

If the answer is yes. Then the ABS owes it to those who are helping in the education process to help them in any way they can.

No camps, no dissension, just looking for which director(s) is going to step forward and revisit the Charter and upgrade it to account for the changes that have occurred and will continue to occur.

It should be obvious to all reading this thread that the collectors who are reading this and posting are not happy with the ABS, specifically those in charge. Wouldn't the smart move be to reach out to collectors like Kevin, Peter, Roger, Anthony, STeven, Stephen, etc. Like it or not it is the collectors that provide the money for these makers to continue perpetuating the forged arts.

Rating judging, Hammer-ins, etc. this "dialog" is between the makers and the board.

The "Status Quo" is no longer acceptable today. If you doubt that give a call to some of the former Guild officers.

As the saying goes "The only constant is change"

WWG
 
I have some questions

What specific changes do people want the ABS to make?

How is the board selected?

Are there paid positions within the ABS?

What is the budget of the ABS?
 
Keith,

In the Spring 2007 ABS Journal in the Chairmans Corner section, Kessler announced the new officers. Neely is Chairman, Gaston is first vise-chairman, and Jerry is 2nd chair.
 
Les,

I still believe that the purpose of the ABS needs to be education. However, that is a dynamic, multi-faceted approach to education, not a static single focused approach. See, I believe that one of the greatest tools we as makers have in our marketing approach is education. But there's an effective way to do that.

If the ABS had a dynamic, modern web site with lists of both JS and MS smiths, heck, a list of all active members that would be educational. If it had photos and video of events, shows, demos, that would be educational. If there was a forward thinking approach to hammer-ins that focused as much on selling knives and taking orders as it did on forging and heat treating, that would be educational. If they offered classes through Texarkana College at the school on marketing, photography, etc., that would be educational.

I think that there is an untra-conservative approach that syas that anything related to sales cannot be educational, and I don't agree.

They are doing some new things next year for Reno that are probably a step in the right direction. I see this as a willingness to change if need be. Any organization run by committee will be a slow moving beast, and in some ways that's not a bad thing.

One problem is that the whole board is volunteer. Jan Dubois is paid, but she's not on the board. I wonder if they had a paid director, either a current maker from the board or an outside individual, they would be able to dedicate the time to inplimenting ideas, rather than a volunteer who sees time invested in the organization as time away from the shop and their own business.

The BFB bowie team was / is all volunteer, and I think we did a lot with what we had. But we all knew we were in it for the short haul. We would not be as energetic and creative in 5-10 years when it was cutting into our productive time.
 
How hard would it be to put up a professional website ala Atlanta Virtual with a UBB bulletin board?

I was an associate member of the ABS. I didn't renew.
My mag delivery was spotty, and email communication with whoever their contact person was at the time was non existent.

I want to support this organization but not until they get organized. I would assume that a few decades would be enough time to work out the bugs.
 
Burt Foster said:
Les,

I still believe that the purpose of the ABS needs to be education. However, that is a dynamic, multi-faceted approach to education, not a static single focused approach. See, I believe that one of the greatest tools we as makers have in our marketing approach is education. But there's an effective way to do that.

If the ABS had a dynamic, modern web site with lists of both JS and MS smiths, heck, a list of all active members that would be educational. If it had photos and video of events, shows, demos, that would be educational. If there was a forward thinking approach to hammer-ins that focused as much on selling knives and taking orders as it did on forging and heat treating, that would be educational. If they offered classes through Texarkana College at the school on marketing, photography, etc., that would be educational.

I think that there is an untra-conservative approach that syas that anything related to sales cannot be educational, and I don't agree.

They are doing some new things next year for Reno that are probably a step in the right direction. I see this as a willingness to change if need be. Any organization run by committee will be a slow moving beast, and in some ways that's not a bad thing.

One problem is that the whole board is volunteer. Jan Dubois is paid, but she's not on the board. I wonder if they had a paid director, either a current maker from the board or an outside individual, they would be able to dedicate the time to inplimenting ideas, rather than a volunteer who sees time invested in the organization as time away from the shop and their own business.

The BFB bowie team was / is all volunteer, and I think we did a lot with what we had. But we all knew we were in it for the short haul. We would not be as energetic and creative in 5-10 years when it was cutting into our productive time.
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And Jan is about as overworked as a poor gal can get:eek: After reading posting and thinking a bit, I had seomthing come to me. The mission of the ABs was to preserve the art of the forged blade. It has been wildly successful in that endeavor. Probably MUCH more successful than any of the founding members ever anticipated. I guess that the organization is at the point where they are asking what the next act should look like. The ABS has essentially supplanted the Guild as the big dog in the knife game and on could argue that it is having additional "missions" foisted upon it as a result of the position that it finds itself in 30 years on. The question for us as members is how does the ABS evolve to handle these new circumstances, if it chooses to do so at all? As for the sales/eduction nexus, I agree with you. It is like the courts have said about freedom of the press. The freedo of r a newspaper to write what it wantsmeans nothing if the government passes laws restricting the publishing/distrubution/sale of the paper. I know that Jerry Fisk has a publication on the business side of knifemaking that the ABs sells, but we could use a bit more on that side. ABS smiths and all other custom knifemakers,particularly the guys way up the food chain, tend to compete for a limited market, but with the experience of companies as diverse as Randall, William Henry, Strider, Busse, Tops, Benchmade, etc, we have seen that there is potentially a much larger market for us guys who have less experience and name recognition. That is one of the big challenges for us over the next decade. To tap this growth market and hopefully dominate it. I know that there are a number of ABs smiths that have been able totap the military narket on their own, but I thinkthat if we really want to expand our customer base, it will have to be through some kind of concerted joint effort.
 
Reading the last couple of pages of this thread I have to wonder if it is wondering a little off point. If the purpose of the ABS is and has been the preservation and propagation of the forged blade, it has been an unbelievable success. How could it be called anything else? If it had existed 40 years ago when Bob Loveless and I met his life and mine would probably have been changed.
I had given up forging and learned that he had also. I have to admire the ABS and reading this thread have found that some of it's leaders are friends of mine. Some of you may know that with two friends I founded the Knife Makers Guild, enticing a dozen people into the first meeting in 1970, you may also know that my Founding Membership was taken from me and that I was in effect expelled from the Guild, which is now reduced to a pitiful 130 or 140 table show and is a regional Florida, rather than a national organization.
The Guild lost it's focus on promoting handmade knives and became a platform for the directors to become knife designers for the Benchmades and Spydercos of the knife world.
My point is: The ABS is florishing and doing the job it started out to do while the Guild changed course and has totally lost focus.
Instead of beating up on the ABS which has and is doing a great job (of what it does) Start a new organization that will do just what you want it to do? Be sure that you agree beforehand on just what it is you want your new organization to do and put it into precise form so you can achive what it is you want. Good luck A. G.
 
HI Burt,

Your entire post was well put, I agree 100% with you. There's a first! :D

The ABS does not have to stray from its original concept. However, as you pointed out it is a fluid situation and issues on several fronts need to be addressed.

You and I are both full time at this would both benefit from an increased information/marketing presence. As well the other makers and collectors who make, buy, sell or trade Forged blades would benefit.

In short it would be a win-win for everyone involved. It seems a slight modification of the non-profit status would be in order.

The ABS can have their attorney contact the Guilds attorney to find out what wording they are using. The Guild is a Non-Profit, but does a lot more advertising.

It appears that everyone agrees that the ABS needs to do some kind of marketing, even if it is only bringing their web site up to speed.

WWG
 
A. G. Russell said:
Reading the last couple of pages of this thread I have to wonder if it is wondering a little off point. If the purpose of the ABS is and has been the preservation and propagation of the forged blade, it has been an unbelievable success. How could it be called anything else? If it had existed 40 years ago when Bob Loveless and I met his life and mine would probably have been changed.
I had given up forging and learned that he had also. I have to admire the ABS and reading this thread have found that some of it's leaders are friends of mine. Some of you may know that with two friends I founded the Knife Makers Guild, enticing a dozen people into the first meeting in 1970, you may also know that my Founding Membership was taken from me and that I was in effect expelled from the Guild, which is now reduced to a pitiful 130 or 140 table show and is a regional Florida, rather than a national organization.
The Guild lost it's focus on promoting handmade knives and became a platform for the directors to become knife designers for the Benchmades and Spydercos of the knife world.
My point is: The ABS is florishing and doing the job it started out to do while the Guild changed course and has totally lost focus.
Instead of beating up on the ABS which has and is doing a great job (of what it does) Start a new organization that will do just what you want it to do? Be sure that you agree beforehand on just what it is you want your new organization to do and put it into precise form so you can achive what it is you want. Good luck A. G.
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wow! well put. As I have attempted to say in previous posts, my questions is what's next for the ABS? I remember going to my first knife show back in the early 90's. It was the Guild show back when it was held in Orlando for the first time and it was a sight to behold. Go forward to 2005 when I attended my first Blade show. Even more wonderous even if it was not the same new experience that the original was. Then I went to the Guild show later that summer.......ummmm........my first question was what happened? The Guild show had gone from taking up the biggest meeting room in the biggest hotel in the largest hotel market in the world (and waiting for Marriot to open their larger room the following year) to what Mr. Russell described. Yes, the ABS continues to grow, but I hope that it doesn't become, through discord, disillusionment, etc, the knifemaking organization version of a Ponzi scheme. Replace the 3 guys who quit with 4 new guys and you are growing by 25%. Hopefully, we can learn not only from the ABS's experices of the last 30 years, but also from experiences of other organizations that have not had as much good fortune and when we all gather at Blade in 2017, maybe there will be 200+ Master Smiths, 2500+ members, including many more from the rest of the world and an exponentially larger market for custom knifemakers of all "schools". So, how do we get there?
:D
 
quote from A.G.:

Start a new organization that will do just what you want it to do? Be sure that you agree beforehand on just what it is you want your new organization to do and put it into precise form so you can achive what it is you want.

Jerry, Lombardo, Les ?.....I'm in.;)
 
Reading to catch up, I began having the same idea that A.G. posited. What if we agree that the ABS exists as a single focused entity that educates and nothing more. No marketing, no promotion of the business or the collecting end of the craft, just education. Well, basically what it is now.

Maybe the problem is that we (makers and collectors alike) are wanting more, and because the ABS is the big dog right now, we're looking to it to provide more. Would it not be potentially more beneficial, rather than to wrestle with the ABS to make it into this huge umbrella organization that relates to every different facet of custom or forged knives, to just begin something new?

The ABS could remain what it is, and it would not have to be diminished in its influence. It could still certify JS and MS smiths, still have a show (expo), and still host hammer-ins to continue to grow the pool of new makers, and therefore perpetuate the craft. Then, not as a replacement, but as a compliment, we create another organization that is designed to address the need that the ABS charter is fuzzy on. Something, well, like the Guild was.

If fact, what if the real problem is that with the collapse of the Guild, there is a vacuum created by the absence of a "business" organization. Maybe the answer is the creation of a new incarnation of the Guild.

Rather than try to add onto our parents house, we just build a new place down the road. We'll still come and visit, of course, it's just that we need space for things that Mom and Dad don't understand.
 
I have to agree with Mr Russell. If the ABS chooses to leave things the way it is, what would keep the collectors from forming an association to do the things pertaining to marketing of makers, educating new collectors, etc?
Can a non-profit entity like the ABS have a subsidiary that is set up to make a profit? Not saying the ABS would. I'm just curious. Lin

Burt,
I should have waited. You said it better.
 
lwrhea said:
I have to agree with Mr Russell. If the ABS chooses to leave things the way it is, what would keep the collectors from forming an association to do the things pertaining to marketing of makers, educating new collectors, etc?
Can a non-profit entity like the ABS have a subsidiary that is set up to make a profit? Not saying the ABS would. I'm just curious. Lin

Burt,
I should have waited. You said it better.
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That is what a number of NFP's did in the past Lin. Not because they actually wanted to make a prfit, but because the tax code was screwy (big surprise) and nobody wanted to run afoul of the law. That law has been fixed a bit, but it has been so long since I was part of any discussions about this topic that I am not up to speed on what the current situation is. Typically, the question is not necessarily whether a NFP brings in money above and beyong what it needs to survive administratively (up to a point), but what it does with it.
 
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