What is going on with the ABS?

[Joss]

If I understand correctly, the Board appoints new members. Some of you have commented that collectors are not members and don't get a vote. the factof the matter is that members who are knifemakers do not get a vote.

If this is true, this is completely self destructive over the long term. I understand the need to control the philosophy of an organization for the first few years, but beyond that you need to allow it the flexibility to react to the real world.

 

[fisk]

gene
I oversee the MS judging. On that day Bill H did not submit MS quality knives. period. Attitude has nothing to do with whether a person passes or not, neither does the style of knife he submits. There are two people I voted yes for their stamp, and they did get it, that I would not pee on if they were burning. I did not like them personally but the judges put their personal feelings aside in that room. Its about the work submited that they layed on that particular judging table.
I also saw the knife in question with the tang layed out at the Reno show. That had nothing to do with his judging in Atlanta.
You got anymore questions about this just ask me.

 

[RogerP]

Whoa......you mean this objection was unsolicited? I thought the guys went to them first to ask if it was ok.

Yes and no. An esteemed member of our group ran a draft flyer by some board members as a courtesy. Each maker was descibed as I indicated: ABS Journeyman / Mastersmith X. Which, in fact, they are. That's it.

Roger

 

[jdm61]

gene
I oversee the MS judging. On that day Bill H did not submit MS quality knives. period. Attitude has nothing to do with whether a person passes or not, neither does the style of knife he submits. There are two people I voted yes for their stamp, and they did get it, that I would not pee on if they were burning. I did not like them personally but the judges put their personal feelings aside in that room. Its about the work submited that they layed on that particular judging table.
I also saw the knife in question with the tang layed out at the Reno show. That had nothing to do with his judging in Atlanta.
You got anymore questions about this just ask me.

LOL....you cleaned up that little colloquialism a bit, Mr. Fisk, but it was still as funny For the group, another story that I heard from an MS involved one of his knives that had a hollow ground blade. He told me that one of the judges remarked that he didn't reallt care for hollow grinds on forged blades. But the upshot was that he gave the smith a pass vote on his knives that he submitted. including the one that he personally didn't care for

 

[jdm61]

Yes and no. An esteemed member of our group ran a draft flyer by some board members as a courtesy. Each maker was descibed as I indicated: ABS Journeyman / Mastersmith X. Which, in fact, they are. That's it.

Roger

There ain't no esteemed members of this group....what you talkin bout? Like I said before. I am a bit more "aggressive" in the legal area than some, so from my personal experience with such matters, the not-for-profit issues seems like a tempest in a teapot. The one time that my old trade group acted really conservative on a matter like this, all it did in the long run was create unecessary expense and paperwork.

 

[Les Robertson]

HTMD,

Good to hear your experience has been one of the "warm fuzzy" persuasion.

However, don't lump me in with the ABS Board. HTMD, I am a C Corporation...a profit based business entity. As such I am responsible every day to my organization.

Hopefully the next group will be attuned to todays market, the collectors who create it and do as much as they can to help the membership that provides them with the organization that they are on the board of.

Then again maybe you do need to brush up on the Heimlich maneuver. Seems the ABS is choking on a big piece of "This is the way we have always done it".

WWG

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thank you, Derrick. I am glad you see the efforts.

www.BFBBowie.com

What you DON'T see on the flyer or the website is a mention of the ABS. Four of the BEST makers supporting the ABS, donating their time and work for a completely charitable reason, Five others who either own scads of ABS knives or help to promote them, and they were advised NOT to use the term ABS in any of the promotion. This came by way of the board...

Someone had to say this, and Roger was holding back....

Sure, we live in a litigious society, but this is letting the tail wag the dog.

Coop

Well you guys know how pro ABS I am. Sometimes to the point of some of you wanting to run me out of here

But the above incident bothered me and still does.
I don't think we asked for too much. In fact it would have been to great advantage to the ABS to be associated with such a well done and worthwhile project.

 

[jdm61]

HTMD,

Good to hear your experience has been one of the "warm fuzzy" persuasion.

However, don't lump me in with the ABS Board. HTMD, I am a C Corporation...a profit based business entity. As such I am responsible every day to my organization.

Hopefully the next group will be attuned to todays market, the collectors who create it and do as much as they can to help the membership that provides them with the organization that they are on the board of.

Then again maybe you do need to brush up on the Heimlich maneuver. Seems the ABS is choking on a big piece of "This is the way we have always done it".

WWG

The ABS has been somewhat of a contradiction from the start. If you think about it, the art form that it is tasked with preserving is quite archaic, yet the concept of an organization being founded in the latter part of the 20th century to preserve such an art form is fairly radical. Thepoint that I seeyou and others making is that the ABS needs to keep that spirit alive. Both the Guild and the ABS applied a modern twist to what most people thought was an ancient and obsolete craft and boy, did it work. But we as makers, collectors and geeral knifeknuts cannot rest on our laurels. Let's not let our organizations become as ancient and obsolete as people once thought our hobby was.

 

[Darby]

Here is my observation.....

It is my opinion that much that has been said about the qualifications for JS and MS status is true and something needs to be done on a continual basis.

But I believe that there has been a greater evil at work behind the scenes in the leadership of the ABS. If you have been paying attention to the ABS Journal you should have noticed that Fisk was demoted!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever asked why?

It is my opinion that the ABS needs JERRY more than Jerry needs the ABS.

 

[Kohai999]

Here is my observation.....

If you have been paying attention to the ABS Journal you should have noticed that Fisk was demoted!!!!!!!!!!

Have you ever asked why?

It is my opinion that the ABS needs JERRY more than Jerry needs the ABS.

Damn, Darby!!!!

I don't know about evil, but am aware of the Fisk dilemma.

I didn't want to call attention to it, because that puts Jerry in the hot seat, ABS-wise, and was SPECIFICALLY trying NOT to do that.

Too much drama, as it is, for someone considered an amigo.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Gene Martin]

Mr Jerry,

Just so you remember me, you called me the possum sheriff. I haven't seen or talked with you in years. You are a fantastic maker and epitomize Southern Hospitality. I spent 6 weeks at the ABS School and saw you nearly every week. I also met a number of other MS and saw their work. Soem impressed me, some did not.

So, I do have some questions for you. We'll start with the ABS. Since the stated purpose appears to be education about knife forging, why does anyone need to be a member after experiencing the school? THe school was a fantastic learning experience and changed my life as far as knifemaking goes. I paid my dues, got an annual update on the rules, but little else to further educate me.

In earning JS or MS, where someone comes from has little effect on what the ABS does with them as members. The Montana Mafia, as they have been referred to, are a bunch of dynamos, that, pointed in the right direction, work among themselves to learn new things. The ABS has allowed them to earn letters behind their names, verifying that they knbew how to meet certain standards, but only gave them the basic tools to do so. They had to go to Atlanta for their letters, the ABS certainly didn't allow them anywhere more geographically convenient. They did what they did from passion, not because of the ABS. That they are there and the ABS is not validates my point.

As the ABS has grown and expanded westward, ironically from Washington, AR where the wagon trains headed westward, the ABS has stayed very centralized. If the ABS was interested in expanding and moving forward, there might be more than a hammer in down in So Cal, where most of the smiths aren't.

As to Bill, I was in awe of his work long before I saw yours. He was and is one heck of a maker. The shows he took awards at were attended by ABS smiths, yet Bill won them. So, was Red invited to chat with Bill about an attitude problem over a welder? Page 64 of Wayne Goddard, MS book The Wonder of Knifemaking, shows how to make a short tang stronger. Where is the problem?

I certainly will not call your judgement into account, but my personal observation is that Bill does better work than some of the MS I have seen. I wasn't at that confab, I've heard one side and there are probably two oithers.

I appreciate the personal interest you have taken in helping and educating new makers. I've benefitted from it and have tried to emulate that example. There were many others who helped me along my way and I do try to give back. BUut as an organization, what effort does the ABS make, other than Washington, AR? When all the members pay their dues, what benefit does that member, who has attended the school, gain? Most makers help newbies with the craft, it doesn't tyake an ABS member to do that.

Why is there no more Western area ABS sanctioned training? There are many MS in Montana, a few in Wyo, many in Oregon. Where is the ABS? When I asked Ed Caffrey for help with a project recently, he helped me as a fellow maker who loves knifemaking. I don't think the ABS had anything to do with it.

So after the basic education, a couple of periodic tests to determine proficiency and an award, what does the ABS do? I know the ABS is active politically in Arkansas and a few other places back that way. Why not North and West of the Mason -Dixon line?

You and I once spoke about the Guild and how the ABS was something to become what the Guild once was. Has that goal been met?

I'll quit with that. I personally saw no future benefit to membership and left. I have not spoken to anyone about this and in this manner since. Knifemakers, with some exceptions, are the greatest people in the world. It is a remarkable brotherhood, one that I am proud to be a member. The ABS started with lofty goals, but from my perspctive, fell by the wayside, pr just lost sight of those goals. Since I live farther out in the sticks than you do, I was unaware of these other issues. I don't need to be aware of them. I made my choice.

I hope you have a great show. You live by your own advice of striving for excellence and I try to emulate that. It's good advice. I hadn't even thought about this thread and its timing to the show, but this may be a realy good topic of discussion for the board. Where is the ABS going, or did they miss?

My best to you and Terese.

Gene

 

[Kohai999]

.......Why is there no more Western area ABS sanctioned training? There are many MS in Montana, a few in Wyo, many in Oregon. Where is the ABS? When I asked Ed Caffrey for help with a project recently, he helped me as a fellow maker who loves knifemaking. I don't think the ABS had anything to do with it.

Gene, I am not Jerry, obviously, think that you have met me, he is much taller, and better looking, more polite.

There is an ABS Hammer-In, located in Washington State.

...

.. Knifemakers, with some exceptions, are the greatest people in the world. It is a remarkable brotherhood, one that I am proud to be a member. The ABS started with lofty goals, but from my perspctive, fell by the wayside, perhaps just lost sight of those goals. ....
I
Gene

Knife people, amigo, not just Knifemakers....Steve Dick pointed that out to me about 6 years ago.

The ABS ABSOLUTELY sticks to the goals of education, the charter is simply not far thinking enough to address what is currently required.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Gene Martin]

Steven,

I has to do with lagtime between posts. I was unaware of the hammer in in Washington. Who hosts it? I know Lyle has one, but I didn't think it had to do with the ABS. There are more non ABS hammer ins in the NW than the ABS deals with, but thanks. I stand corrected. Heck, mebbe I should join to get their newsletter, you think?... And thanks for knife people. Without collectors and users, this would be awfully lonely.

Thanks also for the other things I have learned from reading a lot and posting little. You are outspoken and starightforward. I appreciate that.

Gene

 

[Kohai999]

Steven,

I has to do with lagtime between posts. I was unaware of the hammer in in Washington. Who hosts it? I know Lyle has one, but I didn't think it had to do with the ABS.

I know that Matt Diskin started doing one, but I think that Lyle and Tom Ferry have sort of taken over. There is a link on the ABS site to Lyle's from 2002, so I figured that was sanctioned.

Thanks also for the other things I have learned from reading a lot and posting little. You are outspoken and starightforward. I appreciate that.

Gene

Thank you, sincerely. We all learn from each other, and I am really not a Kumbaiya sort of person, more of a "Kill 'em all, and let G_d sort 'em out" kind of person.

Michael Kleid, Micheal Reape, A.G. Russell, Phillip Baldwin, Dan Maragni, Jim Schmidt, Hugh Bartrug, Wayne Valachovic, Don Fogg, Jim Siska, Butch Vallotton, Bill McHenry, Jason Williams, J.D. Smith, Michael Bell, Ed Fowler, Wayne Goddard, Ed Schempp, Paul Champagne, Thomas Welk, Sal Glesser, Les DeAsis and many others have all helped me along the way.

I would not be outspoken if I had no knowledge, and would not have understanding of knife things if it was not for the patience and help of those mentioned as well as the regular Forumites who help every day.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[lwrhea]

I've been reading this and holding my tongue. Not that I have anything much to add that has'nt already been said.

I would like to comment on one thing. This a quote from Mr Martin

We'll start with the ABS. Since the stated purpose appears to be education about knife forging, why does anyone need to be a member after experiencing the school? THe school was a fantastic learning experience and changed my life as far as knifemaking goes. I paid my dues, got an annual update on the rules, but little else to further educate me.

The ABS is , of course, a Society. It has made itself very clear that that is all it is at this time. I to attended some of the courses offered in Old Washington and I understood that ,beyond that, it was up to ME to build on my education and decide whether to use what I learned to support my knifemaing habit. As to whether I need the ABS to further educate me? I guess I'd have to say, No.
But, I dont think I would have made progess at the same rate if I had not stuck with the ABS. I belive that you have to put yourself in the position to learn before you can learn. Are there other places to learn? Of course. I can only say from my experience that the ABS has been very good for me. It has been good because I hav'nt held IT responsible for my advancement in knifemaking and marketing myself. That is MY responsibiltiy. Never once in my association with the ABS or it's members, instructors, etc was I lead to believe that I would be more likely to succeed as a knifemaker because I was a member. I think the ABS needs to make some changes and I get the feeling it will.
The website could use improvement. The makers need more support (as a whole). The Public Relations between the ABS and other art forms and ralated organizations could be better. This may require involving a hired (or not hired as in the case of WWG) Yes. There, I said it. It could be better.

Guys, the ABS has done a good thing. I hope it will continue to do that and will give it my support for what thats worth. Even if it chooses not to make changes. No doubt other groups will spring from or because of the ABS and it will be up to ME then to decide whether I join these too.

This has been a good discussion. Lin

 

[Kevin Jones]

Well you guys know how pro ABS I am. Sometimes to the point of some of you wanting to run me out of here

But the above incident bothered me and still does.
I don't think we asked for too much. In fact it would have been to great advantage to the ABS to be associated with such a well done and worthwhile project.

I've been reading this and holding my tongue. Not that I have anything much to add that has'nt already been said.

Guys, the ABS has done a good thing. I hope it will continue to do that and will give it my support for what thats worth. Even if it chooses not to make changes. No doubt other groups will spring from or because of the ABS and it will be up to ME then to decide whether I join these too.
This has been a good discussion. Lin

I agree Lin.
The ABS has been instrumental in the progression of not just the forged blade but custom knives in general to the thriving and successful entity it is today.

And besides that, the ABS is made up of some of the finest individuals I have met in my life. Individuals that’s main goal is to help their fellowman even at their own expense.

However, everything can't always be looked at as either Black or White. In business, organizations, societies things are quite often Gray, requiring specific attention to insure the overall wellbeing of the organization, members, management, employees, customers or whatever the case may be.

It seems to me that the ABS could be a little more flexible in dealing with issues and policy. Realizing the need to bend a little at times for the good of all, however of course never being wreckless.

And guys, let’s not get Mr. Jerry riled up as he’s engraving this weekend and needs a steady hand.

 

[lwrhea]

I have seen at least two things that, in my opinion, would benifit the forward progress of the ABS. This is one thing mentioned by Wulf:

The organization needs to step up its visibility and PR a bit. Get a young, smart, talented, energetic new maker or collector in charge of public relations and marketing. Revamp the website, improve its content, promote the craft in a more visible and public manner. Reach out to non knife publications like Popular Science, Mens Journal, Outdoor Life, National Geographic, etc. and invite journalists to hammer-ins and shows.

I would also include celebrity appearances at events, etc. Is that politics? The art and gun people already are doing it. Anyway, you get the picture.

The second being a website that is better in tune with the needs of the maker AND collector.

It will take a little time for any or all of the changes to be implimented, if they are. I'm sure the board is aware of this discussion and will do what it thinks best. Lin

 

[Kevin Jones]

100% Correct Lin on both IMO.
not just benefit but take the ABS to whole new level.....

 

[ptgdvc]

100% Correct Lin on both IMO.
not just benifit but take the ABS to whole new level.....

That is a very nice idea, but everything I have heard tells me that, the current Directors of the ABS, have zero interest or desire in "taking the ABS to a whole new level". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You also can't give them imagination and vision.

BTW, who exactly is on the Board of Directors of the ABS?

 

[Les Robertson]

HI Peter,

You wrote:

BTW, who exactly is on the Board of Directors of the ABS?

This is an excellent question for the ABS members here to answer.

Who are they, what are their backgrounds, how were they elected and when are their terms up?

WWG