What is it about Survive! knives?

[mtangent]

LOL. Sometimes ambiguity is worth a giggle.

 

[Cobalt]

I know companies in the past have sold seconds. But prices need to match it not sure how these were priced. At the end of the day people do not need to buy something if they feel they don't like how the business is done. It is a free enterprise. I feel they make a quality product with designs I like and I also feel their prices are reasonable. Aside from the seconds issue, lol.

 

[wazu013]

I know companies in the past have sold seconds. But prices need to match it not sure how these were priced. At the end of the day people do not need to buy something if they feel they don't like how the business is done. It is a free enterprise. I feel they make a quality product with designs I like and I also feel their prices are reasonable. Aside from the seconds issue, lol.

Their website sells seconds at a 10% discount. They get snapped up quickly as well.

 

[GREENJACKET]

At this scale of production seconds turn up anywhere along the production line. Why put them aside to build up when its more efficient to finish them with the rest; heck, most probably only come to light right at the end. Sounds like not a lot wrong just not perfect enough. Sell them on fast to those who don't mind and would prefer a bit of a discount. Better that than let them accumulate in some big bin and get in the way; and at some point someone is going to have to sort them out.

Seems pretty sensible to me. Seems to me people reading far too much into something pretty straight forward and practical.

All my knives are now well used. Sure aren't factory fresh perfect anymore. I'm generally pleased someone actually makes something I want, and can't see the point in questioning their reasoning as if everything and everyone is trying to get something over me. Not everyone is living to find a con. Most are trying to do their best. So I don't get the fishing for negatives. Don't think there is anything to find with tis company other than growing pains; there doing their best and their products speak volumes that their best is plenty great. Well I think so.

 

[chiral.grolim]

So you're an investor, promoting a company? Sounds like a shill.

Already posted the definition, doesn't apply. I don't work for them, and call myself an "investor" because I've already paid for knives that I haven't yet received Read here: http://surviveknives.com/starter/

The SURVIVE! Starter is designed as a crowd funding source to help us grow our production capabilities. With your investment ...

I'm one of those guys, a "sucker" with money tied up who is waiting for his returns. And I have that "luxury" (more commonly considered a "virtue") - patience. And in this thread, most of my posts have not been promoting, they've been defending, is that the same thing? Anyway, as I am neither an employee nor paid by the company (even indirectly), and am solely a customer (like many others), the term doesn't apply. *shrug*

I stopped reading at the bolded part. I made no such claims. You can't even keep who you're arguing with straight. Secondly, who are you to attempt to dress others down for, as you put it, "making assertions" when that is literally all YOU have done. You are a water-carrier, that much is clear. Therefore, to expect objective discourse with you ... is impossible.

Well, below is a paragraph of some of your claims (specific here, the "your" in my last post was plural to encompass the "I, Ratman, and others," that you presented below), and you have made others elsewhere, silly to pretend otherwise.
And yes, I DO make assertions, but you don't challenge them on any factual basis, you simply attack me (ad hominem), which certainly does make rational discourse difficult. *shrug*

This entire paragraph can be broken down thusly:

"All of the flaws in the maker's business plan can be forgiven because I like his product. You should ALSO have no issues with his poor business model, because the product is worth it." So, you are essentially an apologist for Guy's inability to run a timely business, which I gotta tell you, that's ridiculous, man. You can attempt to downplay the very real concerns that I, Ratman, and others have, but at the end of the day, they ARE valid, and it looks to me like nothing is going to change at S!K anytime soon. I frankly think there'll be a point where they close their doors. But that's just me. Also, it's nothing personal. I don't know anyone at S!K. I just have a general understanding of how businesses work, and there just seem to be a lot of questions here. I watched Skylar in that other thread get bashed, but he asked a pointed question that was never answered, which I think says it all, really: "I find it interesting that you are making knives to sell on Mondays, while people are waiting years for their knives."

That was conveniently overlooked in multiple responses from Ellie.

 

[Quiet]

Already posted the definition, doesn't apply. I don't work for them, and call myself an "investor" because I've already paid for knives that I haven't yet received Read here: http://surviveknives.com/starter/



I'm one of those guys, a "sucker" with money tied up who is waiting for his returns. And I have that "luxury" (more commonly considered a "virtue") - patience. And in this thread, most of my posts have not been promoting, they've been defending, is that the same thing? Anyway, as I am neither an employee nor paid by the company (even indirectly), and am solely a customer (like many others), the term doesn't apply. *shrug*




Well, below is a paragraph of some of your claims (specific here, the "your" in my last post was plural to encompass the "I, Ratman, and others," that you presented below), and you have made others elsewhere, silly to pretend otherwise.
And yes, I DO make assertions, but you don't challenge them on any factual basis, you simply attack me (ad hominem), which certainly does make rational discourse difficult. *shrug*

I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said (and I quote from you):

It wasn't your "concerns" that i challenged, Quiet, it was the assertions. The BS about deliberately under-producing to drive demand and create hype when, sheesh, these people are having a hard enough time pumping out the numbers that they already produce!

Now, that HAS been said, but it wasn't me. Therefore, you still have it wrong. People who use Strawman attacks should really refrain from claiming that others are making ad hominem attacks. So, take your BS condescension and watercarrying back to your sub. No one here wants to hear that nonsense. Survive! Knives makes a good knife, but with a terrible business model. I candidly think that if enough people came to understand this truth, and all asked for refunds, S!K would fold like a cheap card table.

I can't speak for anyone else. HOWEVER. If I had paid for a product, and instead of producing my product with what is obviously a super bottle-necked, limited line of production, they decided to offer another product to new customers and service THOSE orders instead, I'd be super pissed. That is what they have done, to my understanding. People are still waiting for their orders back from the "Invest in us! Here's how!" event, yet people who placed orders AFTER that have gotten knives.

Is that incorrect? Are the people who are saying they are still waiting for order fulfillment while this super small company with its super bottlenecked means of production makes new products for new customers lying? I mean, you seem to be super close with Guy and Ellie, so why don't you set us all straight?

 

[timichango]

I can't speak for anyone else. HOWEVER. If I had paid for a product, and instead of producing my product with what is obviously a super bottle-necked, limited line of production, they decided to offer another product to new customers and service THOSE orders instead, I'd be super pissed. That is what they have done, to my understanding. People are still waiting for their orders back from the "Invest in us! Here's how!" event, yet people who placed orders AFTER that have gotten knives.

I guess it ultimately kinda depends how the blems for sale are coming about: if they're second-grade blanks (ie. they get identified early in the process stream as being blems) and those are receiving subsequent attention in subsequent steps (ie. pulling focus from delivering first-grade products to the preorder customers), then yeah, that's a problem. That energy should be getting spent on finishing original orders, no doubt.

If, on the other hand, you have blems coming up later in the process (eg. a batch comes back with bad coatings), and it's trivial to get them out the door and out to folks who don't mind, then that actually might be a pretty practical thing to do:

• gets bad stock out of the shop, out of the way, and satisfies some product demand in the process for the salivating masses
• injects some cash into the coffers — hopefully that cash can get put towards securing qualified help to uncork the apparently severe sharpening/finishing bottleneck
• potentially gives someone who preordered but is fed up a way to get a blade faster (ie. buy the factory second, cancel their preorder, and save a bit of cash in the process — and end the wait sooner)
• probably actually represents a more reasonable Q/A stantard for the price point of the product (as much as I like the extreme attention to detail in theory, I reckon too much perfectionism is actually hurting them a bunch).

None of this is to say that there aren't very real issues — I just reckon that the Monday sales are the least of their problems (or transgressions, depending on how you look at it), in light of the overall clown-car phenomenon of their lead times.

Anyways, I kinda get the impression that the factions emerging around the Survive scenario kinda fall into two camps: those who think they're screwing up, but want them to succeed (and still think that's viable somehow), and those that think that it's about to implode, and that the ethical thing to do is to sound the alarms and get everyone to pull their money out before it goes supernova. Wouldn't it be hi-frickin-larious, though, if all the alarm sounding was actually the straw that broke the camel's back?

What a mess.

 

[Quiet]

I guess it ultimately kinda depends how the blems for sale are coming about: if they're second-grade blanks (ie. they get identified early in the process stream as being blems) and those are receiving subsequent attention in subsequent steps (ie. pulling focus from delivering first-grade products to the preorder customers), then yeah, that's a problem. That energy should be getting spent on finishing original orders, no doubt.

If, on the other hand, you have blems coming up later in the process (eg. a batch comes back with bad coatings), and it's trivial to get them out the door and out to folks who don't mind, then that actually might be a pretty practical thing to do:

• gets bad stock out of the shop, out of the way, and satisfies some product demand in the process for the salivating masses
• injects some cash into the coffers — hopefully that cash can get put towards securing qualified help to uncork the apparently severe sharpening/finishing bottleneck
• potentially gives someone who preordered but is fed up a way to get a blade faster (ie. buy the factory second, cancel their preorder, and save a bit of cash in the process — and end the wait sooner)
• probably actually represents a more reasonable Q/A stantard for the price point of the product

None of this is to say that there aren't very real issues — I just reckon that the Monday sales are the least of their problems (or transgressions, depending on how you look at it), in light of the overall clown-car phenomenon of their lead times.

Anyways, I kinda get the impression that the factions emerging around the Survive scenario kinda fall into two camps: those who think they're screwing up, but want them to succeed (and still think that's viable somehow), and those that think that it's about to implode, and that the ethical thing to do is to sound the alarms and get everyone to pull their money out before it goes supernova. Wouldn't it be hi-frickin-larious, though, if all the alarm sounding was actually the straw that broke the camel's back?

What a mess.

Just my opinion only, but the bolded should be the ONLY way that seconds and other immediately available knives should be sold by this company. I mean, they have books, right? There should be lists. If they have those names and emails, and they have, say twenty seconds, then an email should go out to that first batch of waiting customers with a message exactly like you describe. "Hey guys, we got these 20 knives, they're pretty decent. If you'd like to cut down the wait time, they are first come, first serve, and your preorder will be cancelled." Easy.

I would be candidly in the second camp. I think people should take a close look at exactly how things are run before giving this company a dime. They are using the "money up front" model as an interest free loan to fund their other operations, not to make you a knife. That's the thing I take issue with.

Your whole post is spot on. :thumbup:

 

[timichango]

Just my opinion only, but the bolded should be the ONLY way that seconds and other immediately available knives should be sold by this company. I mean, they have books, right? There should be lists. If they have those names and emails, and they have, say twenty seconds, then an email should go out to that first batch of waiting customers with a message exactly like you describe. "Hey guys, we got these 20 knives, they're pretty decent. If you'd like to cut down the wait time, they are first come, first serve, and your preorder will be cancelled." Easy.

I would be candidly in the second camp. I think people should take a close look at exactly how things are run before giving this company a dime. They are using the "money up front" model as an interest free loan to fund their other operations, not to make you a knife. That's the thing I take issue with.

Your whole post is spot on. :thumbup:

Actually, what you're suggesting as a modus operandi for how the seconds get offered up is a pretty good idea. That'd go a long way towards reestablishing (or retaining) some goodwill with bummed out preorder customers, and would be a pretty stand-up way to go.

I have a 4.7 factory second monday-special on order myself, as a quick stopgap given the vagueness around the timeline on the 4.1 I ordered at presale a few months back, and I'm seriously contemplating cancelling the 4.1 — both because it'll be redundant, given the 4.7, and because I'm a virtueless impatient man — by the time I get it, I expect I'll be half a year or more into using the factory second, and don't care about the supposed quality difference, as I'll be beating the knife to hell anyways.

That said, I'm still in the first camp, for the time being. I've said this elsewhere too, but I do get the impression that there's a lot of genuine work ethic over at Survive, and that does count for a lot. I'm rooting for them to pull out of the backlog tailspin... I really am. If they can fix the delivery model and backlog, they stand a chance at being a great company that brings some cool stuff to the market.

Limiting my exposure, though. I'm 'In', but I'm not "All-In".

 

[timichango]

They are using the "money up front" model as an interest free loan to fund their other operations, not to make you a knife. That's the thing I take issue with.

That's actually the part that baffles me the most: given the demonstrable demand, why can't they just take on some financing or an angel investor to let them throw more manpower at the backlog, and right the ship? "Organic growth" is often code for a failure to scale a business appropriately, and if they're going to survive (hyuk) their own popularity, they need more product throughput, fast, plain and simple.

 

[mtangent]

Already posted the definition, doesn't apply. I don't work for them, and call myself an "investor" because I've already paid for knives that I haven't yet received Read here: http://surviveknives.com/starter/

Fair enough.
Previous to SK starting the "investment" phase of preorders, I was an interested onlooker. When I read that announcement, my eyes popped & I ran a mile away.I suspect a lot did, simply because of the language, & the attitude it represents.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said (and I quote from you):

It wasn't your "concerns" that i challenged, Quiet, it was the assertions. The BS about deliberately under-producing to drive demand and create hype when, sheesh, these people are having a hard enough time pumping out the numbers that they already produce!

Now, that HAS been said, but it wasn't me. Therefore, you still have it wrong.

You are waiting, but did you at all read the post you just replied to? Here, I'll quote the relevant part and bold what you seem to have missed:

Well, below is a paragraph of some of your claims (specific here, the "your" in my last post was plural to encompass the "I, Ratman, and others," that you presented below), and you have made others elsewhere, silly to pretend otherwise.
And yes, I DO make assertions, but you don't challenge them on any factual basis, you simply attack me (ad hominem), which certainly does make rational discourse difficult. *shrug*

Does this make sense to you? You grouped yourself with "Ratman, and others", when describing "concerns". And read that part of the post that bothers you so much again: (I placed stress on the relevant wording)

It wasn't your "concerns" that i challenged, Quiet, it was the assertions.

See the object to which "your" corresponds? I didn't type "your assertions", Quiet, I typed "the assertions". I made a distinction, but you apparently did not... which begs the question, is it an assertion that you have made before, perhaps elsewhere, that you associated it with yourself??

People who use Strawman attacks should really refrain from claiming that others are making ad hominem attacks. So, take your BS condescension and watercarrying back to your sub. No one here wants to hear that nonsense.

I have not seen a strawman OR an attack on my part, other than asserting that specific claims are BS. I do hope you will point them out, in case they need clarification.

Are the people who are saying they are still waiting for order fulfillment while this super small company with its super bottlenecked means of production makes new products for new customers lying? I mean, you seem to be super close with Guy and Ellie, so why don't you set us all straight?

As a matter of fact, some of those knives (factory seconds and Cf-V blades) are going to OLD customers as well No, i don't think anyone is lying if they state they are still waiting for order fulfillment while other customers are receiving knives - I myself can state that, I am waiting. And for the record, I know less about Guy and Ellie than quite a few folks around here (e.g. Nathan Carothers, Dan Keffeler, Kiah, the folk at Niagra and Peter's HT, etc.). What I do know, I learned because I have no intention of even ORDERING much less pre-ordering blind. I know that the products are awesome, and i know that the company is honest. But to "set straight" those wondering, I did research your question as well, and here you go:

When they kicked off production of the new models, they took the opportunity to throw some new steels into the mix (maybe at the recommendation of the company selling it? I don't know that much). The new steels included CPM154 as well as CruforgeV - there weren't very many made (relative), this was essentially a test-run. These steels were cut and ground along with the other steel for the applicable models and offered for sale to get them out the door. And again, they were available to the "old" customers as well, indeed quite a few seem to have gone that route. So the owner (Guy) was sharpening these knives as well as pre-order knives and also the "factory second" knives as he went along, though it seems knives are often not deemed "factory second" until AFTER they've already been sharpened so it's not like sharpening those is slowing down production.
And that is the bottle-neck there, the sharpening. But sharpening only slows down shipment of the models that are at that state already. Right now, that is 4.7s. If you're waiting on a paid-for 3.5, it's going to be a while since those are still in line at the contractor's production facility. If you're like me and waiting on a 4.7 factory first in 3V, then you want Guy to be sharpening only 3V 4.7s and not 20CV 4.7s or CfV 4.7s, but you're also not the only one waiting. If you demand that Guy strap himself to the grinder 24/7 until all the knives are done, or that he sharpen YOUR knife NOW, then you probably should just ask for a refund *shrug* When you buy in, you check an agreement that there is no "guaranteed" delivery date - why would you do this if you don't trust the company to deliver your knife when it is ready? They are people, just like you and me. Trust them or don't, it's up to you.

Anyway, have I cleared things up / set things straight?

 

[chiral.grolim]

Just my opinion only, but the bolded should be the ONLY way that seconds and other immediately available knives should be sold by this company. I mean, they have books, right? There should be lists. If they have those names and emails, and they have, say twenty seconds, then an email should go out to that first batch of waiting customers with a message exactly like you describe. "Hey guys, we got these 20 knives, they're pretty decent. If you'd like to cut down the wait time, they are first come, first serve, and your preorder will be cancelled." Easy.

I would be candidly in the second camp. I think people should take a close look at exactly how things are run before giving this company a dime. They are using the "money up front" model as an interest free loan to fund their other operations, not to make you a knife. That's the thing I take issue with.

Your whole post is spot on. :thumbup:

Really, that's "easy"? It sounds like a pain to have someone go through all the orders and connect them to the e-mail addresses and contact each of those individuals... Instead, they simply send out a newsletter letting everybody (not just waiting customers) know about the availability of other knives as they come up, folk can then place an order for one through the website, and can then cancel/alter their previous order.

As to the pre-orders being an "interest free loan", they lose 5-10% minimum on those, just like they lose 10% on the "seconds" and more on "ugly bettys". And again, 10% interest on an 18-month loan? Can you present me with a comparable 18-month investment with that kind of return? And remember, the company has, as far as I've ever heard, not failed even once to deliver a knife that was paid for... EDIT TO ADD... or sent a refund on demand.

 

[chiral.grolim]

If, on the other hand, you have blems coming up later in the process (eg. a batch comes back with bad coatings), and it's trivial to get them out the door and out to folks who don't mind, then that actually might be a pretty practical thing to do:

The way I understand it, some don't get identified until the final inspection, i.e. they've been sharpened and built and are ready to ship, then get tagged and have their scales pulled and a divot put in the tang and then set aside for listing on a Monday. Ad remember, each knife like this represents a monetary loss to the company. You can understand why other companies simply ship out most of their stock without regard for specific quality assessments unless it's really obvious. *shrug*

None of this is to say that there aren't very real issues — I just reckon that the Monday sales are the least of their problems (or transgressions, depending on how you look at it), in light of the overall clown-car phenomenon of their lead times.

Anyways, I kinda get the impression that the factions emerging around the Survive scenario kinda fall into two camps: those who think they're screwing up, but want them to succeed (and still think that's viable somehow), and those that think that it's about to implode, and that the ethical thing to do is to sound the alarms and get everyone to pull their money out before it goes supernova. Wouldn't it be hi-frickin-larious, though, if all the alarm sounding was actually the straw that broke the camel's back?

What a mess.

Yeah, it's the "camel's back" thing that worries me. We've seen good American production companies close up shop before, and in this era of internet flame-wars it's easy to drown a company with negativity. But to sound alarms before there is even smoke? So far, the only "smoke" is coming from people looking at the aforementioned lead-times without taking into account the history of the company actually delivering everything promised. That is wholly UNethical. And it's the history of delivering excellent product that puts me in the first camp. The "loan" through my pre-order is probably the lowest-risk / highest-return investment I could make. *shrug* And again, I'm not telling anyone that they should do likewise, just telling the gloomers to keep it real or have something substantive to report.

The company has "problems" with slow production, but the only ways to see them end are:

a) stop taking pre-orders... which they did, then started again by customer demand, and now are ending again, so that's already in play
b) stop taking ANY new orders... which would piss off potential customers (y'know, the ones that asked for pre-orders in the first place), and probably won't speed up production all that much, except for whatever model happens to be in the shop awaiting sharpening at any given moment...
c) refund all un-fulfilled orders and close-up shop, which would be really sad but would please folk like Quiet for some reason...
EDIT TO ADD:
d) move production elsewhere (http://surviveknives.com/knives/sk-series/ they may contract another company with higher capacity) but that only helps with future orders, not the current ones...

EDIT: Another option! it was mentioned in a post below:

e) Raise Prices to put more capital into production (maybe by interviewing and hiring more candidates?) and maybe also quench some of the demand, though again this wouldn't impact the pre-orders so probably not much help until all those are done with. *shrug*

 

[wazu013]

I'm a little confused and I'm not trying to start an argument.
Who actually makes the knives? I get the impression the S!K staff simply sharpens the finished product. Do they heat treat and finish the blade other than put an edge on it? Do they form and finish the handles? Who exactly does the fit and finish? I keep seeing the term "outsourced" being used. Once again I'm only trying to fix my ignorance since I haven't followed the company at all.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Riz!]

The blanks are laser cut and primary grinds done by a contractor (used to be White River Knives, but is different now and I do not know who), sent to the shop where Guy inspects them, sent to be heat treated by peter's, sent to the shop where Guy media blasts them, laser engraves them, adds handle scales (manufactured by a contractor, i belive the same one who makes Bark River scales and The Knife Connection's custom after market ESEE scales). Then he sharpens them, adds a sheath, packages and ships them. Yes he does not do a lot of the actual manufacturing). The company is producing Mid Tech type knives at higher production company cost. I personally think that Guy could charge and extra $100, make the same amount of profit, alleviate some of the super high demand and eliminate the inevitable bitching by impatient people. I would still buy them

 

[wazu013]

The blanks are laser cut and primary grinds done by a contractor (used to be White River Knives, but is different now and I do not know who), sent to the shop where Guy inspects them, sent to be heat treated by peter's, sent to the shop where Guy media blasts them, laser engraves them, adds handle scales (manufactured by a contractor, i belive the same one who makes Bark River scales and The Knife Connection's custom after market ESEE scales). Then he sharpens them, adds a sheath, packages and ships them. Yes he does not do a lot of the actual manufacturing). The company is producing Mid Tech type knives at higher production company cost. I personally think that Guy could charge and extra $100, make the same amount of profit, alleviate some of the super high demand and eliminate the inevitable bitching by impatient people. I would still buy them

Thank you.

 

[jdm61]

Someone said that the blanks are now water jet cut. As for who does the grinding, maybe Larkin? Typically, the grinders want the blanks to be hardened before grinding on the big Berger machine. I wonder if Nathan is doing their handle scales? He brought in a couple of new CNC machines inch the last year or two to handle (pun intended) that end of his business. t

The blanks are laser cut and primary grinds done by a contractor (used to be White River Knives, but is different now and I do not know who), sent to the shop where Guy inspects them, sent to be heat treated by peter's, sent to the shop where Guy media blasts them, laser engraves them, adds handle scales (manufactured by a contractor, i belive the same one who makes Bark River scales and The Knife Connection's custom after market ESEE scales). Then he sharpens them, adds a sheath, packages and ships them. Yes he does not do a lot of the actual manufacturing). The company is producing Mid Tech type knives at higher production company cost. I personally think that Guy could charge and extra $100, make the same amount of profit, alleviate some of the super high demand and eliminate the inevitable bitching by impatient people. I would still buy them

 

[Velitrius]

I've been watching the Exchange, and it seems more than any other brand, they sell really quickly and for what I consider a hefty amount? What am I missing by not trying one? What makes them in such demand?

I don't know the answers to "what you are missing" or "what makes them in such demand" as I do not own one.

I don't own one because I find that they are difficult to obtain and I see better value in other products. Not a slam, just the way I see it.

But if I clicked on an item on a manufacturer's website that stated "In Stock", I'd expect that it would be in stock and shipped promptly. If my credit card was charged for the full amount and I subsequently received a message that told me my knife would be here "next year or later", I'd be a bit peeved.

So I suspect that I won't be clicking on any "in-stock" items anytime soon.

To answer the thread title... "What is it about Survive! knives?"... I don't know. And I don't think this thread is going to answer it definitively.

 

[KingMC]

Really, that's "easy"? It sounds like a pain to have someone go through all the orders and connect them to the e-mail addresses and contact each of those individuals... Instead, they simply send out a newsletter letting everybody (not just waiting customers) know about the availability of other knives as they come up, folk can then place an order for one through the website, and can then cancel/alter their previous order.

As to the pre-orders being an "interest free loan", they lose 5-10% minimum on those, just like they lose 10% on the "seconds" and more on "ugly bettys". And again, 10% interest on an 18-month loan? Can you present me with a comparable 18-month investment with that kind of return? And remember, the company has, as far as I've ever heard, not failed even once to deliver a knife that was paid for... EDIT TO ADD... or sent a refund on demand.

The effort it would take to do as Quiet has detailed is pretty insignificant if you're a company handling hundreds of year-long back orders, but minimal effort seems to be their business model so you are probably right that it's too much effort for them when ignoring their 'investors' is so easy.