What is reasonable and legal?

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mlmcasual

mlmcasual

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Hi,

I have several 100% payment up front (pre orders) for production knives (not custom) from an established respected knife maker. This company's lead time was .. "there is no guaranteed lead time" Because this "pre order pre payment" system is only a year old there was no history to base accurate lead times. However a large increase in demand has lead to longer and longer production times and based off their performance, I am now looking at 2+ years for my pre-purchases made a year ago which is MUCH longer then I anticipated.

My question,

a- is it unusual for a knife maker to require 100% up front payment AND have 2+ years lead times?

b- I am considering asking for a refund(s). Do I have legal standing for refund(s)? Since there was no advertised lead times is there an Indefinite amount of time a knife maker can keep your money without producing a product Legally?

I have not pursued asking for a refund (yet) and have not been denied.. (and is why I am not naming the company) I am just researching this ahead of that.

Thanks..
 
That whole deal is ten ways wrong till next week. Makes no difference if it's an established or a new maker they're selling a pig in a poke.
 
Sorry to hear it, man. Never pay up front. When you do that you're no longer a customer, you're an investor. And yes, you are certainly within your rights to ask for a refund.
 
Asking for money upfront without committing to a production time frame borders on being a scam. If they are confident enough in their ability to justify asking for payment up front then they should be able to put a date in writing. Their use of an open ended time frame is likely to be covering for an inability to meet deadlines, and ultimately, a lack of respect for the customer.

It seems quite common for makers to ask for payment up front but in most cases it's unprofessional and unacceptable. Some do it so they're not out of pocket when a customer cancels at the last second, and that I understand. This case seems a bit different if they presumably have a long list of pre-paid customers waiting.

I wonder what they're doing with your money? If it's anything other than "holding it in a trust account" I think it's basically a scam.
 
If it's a Makers Stated Policy please tell us their name?

Pre-payment is probably the second most consistent cause of problems behind F&F PayPal Payments.

If the maker takes pre-payment on all the knives they make and have a 2 year wait- Does that mean they don't bring in any new revenue for those 2 years while building the pre-paid knives?

Bail and get a refund. You've probably already waited too long to have any recourse with PayPal or a Credit Card Company.
 
braillediver said:
If it's a Makers Stated Policy please tell us their name?

Pre-payment is probably the second most consistent cause of problems behind F&F PayPal Payments.

If the maker takes pre-payment on all the knives they make and have a 2 year wait- Does that mean they don't bring in any new revenue for those 2 years while building the pre-paid knives?

Bail and get a refund. You've probably already waited too long to have any recourse with PayPal or a Credit Card Company.
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The company is one of the established manufactures here on Bladeforums Manufactures Forums.. Thier policy is ,
"Models available for preordering have not started production yet. As such, there is No Guaranteed Delivery Date."
Thing is.. they only way to buy from them is "preorder".. there is no regular ordering, they just have 2nd's and overstock once in awhile that sell off more like a lottery.

I don't consider it a scam as I have purchased and received knives from them over several years and the owner has been very honest and are still taking orders, making knives etc.. It appears demand vs. production has just run away from them and they stated they will not grow the company to accommodate demand.. it's basically a one man outfit with several helpers... If I start looking at their past years performance my (already) one year wait by my math looks like it could esily take 2 to 3 years.

I haven't asked and they haven't denied me a refund.. I was just curious if there are other precedents for this, and what a seller is "legally" obligated to with a non specific lead time.
 
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Ahh I see. So perhaps some benefit of the doubt is in order? There are a few makers on here who charge up front but who I would also trust completely.

Having said that, if a refund is requested it should still be paid. As long as they have your money they have an obligation.
 
Mlmcasual, I actually just requested a refund from said company, I actually need it as I have other things that are priority. I don't expect to hear back until next week, but I'll UPDATE and let you know what happens.

I respect the company fully, and it's not anything to do with them, I simply have other things I have to pay for and am consolidating what I can. However, I say that to say that if you are doubting the company, I would suggest that you don't. The company is upstanding in every way I've experienced. Yes, it's taking them time to produce the knives, but I would have no restraints on trusting them. That's my opinion of course, but maybe it'll give you peace of mind.
 
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Thanks for the response..

It's not so much I don't trust them (iv dealt with them for years).. it's I don't want to tie up money for 2+ years. A lot can happen in 2+ years to a one man run outfit.. health, finances, etc.. And that's a gamble Im not sure I want to take. And all good intentions aside, me paying 100% up front has shifted the risk and vestment completely lopsided to me..
And to be honest.. it concerns me if the management has gotten that far outa whack where it's gone beyond a one year lead time where does it end. If a company can't manage lead times by that much how can they manage getting paid in full years in advance?? It's effectively like a credit line that is getting out of hand - and you know that's what has ruined countless well intentioned businesses.

Let me know how it goes.. thanks..
 
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mlmcasual said:
And to be honest.. it concerns me if the management has gotten that far outa whack where it's gone beyond a one year lead time where does it end. If a company can't manage lead times by that much how can they manage getting paid in full years in advance??
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..... this is probably the most concerning part. If their production/management structure is so far behind it is probably time to stop taking orders and holding OTHER people's money till you are back at a point where you can provide a reasonably accurate delivery window.
 
Looks like they have way more demand than is manageable and that's being used as a barrier to reduce requests. Maybe not the best way to do it.
 
The company is SURVIVE! if anyone's interested (not really a secret considering the OP quoted language from their site). Thought that they should be named so that others who have experienced them could chime in.
 
mlm, I would bet they would cut you a refund no questions asked.

Your concerns are shared by many, and I have no doubt they are legitimate.

I would go ahead and ask if that is what you really want to do. I'm gonna email you.
 
Has anyone sent a link to this company so they can come and give their say seems like the fair thing to do. My concerns here would be 1 they are or have gotten upside down on orders . 2 just don't ever pre pay as said before 2nd to f& f bad issues. 3 stuff happens if a company gets in the hole guess what they got your money and your money is the last they are going to give back hope that's not the case here.
 
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Waiting 2 years for a production knife? Forget that. Numerous other makers who can give you a full custom in less time. Full payment up front? Forget that, you should pay a deposit at most up front, the full amount doesn't give the maker a carrot to strive for, it also increases the chances of a bad situation occurring.
 
I'm a bit confused. It would appear that OP went into this with his eyes wide open. Rather than ask us, why not send an email or make a phone call to the maker? "Hey, just wondering - if I were to decide that I no longer wanted to have my money tied up waiting for a knife, can I get a refund?" TaDa! Question answered.
 
Yup. I pointed this out when they switched to this new "policy". Got smacked around by the hard core fans a bit. The quality is unquestionably good. The price is actually fair. The problem is the business model. If you pay for a knife from them now you are an investor except you don't get any of the benefit an investor gets in the normal business world, you just get what you paid for. There are custom makers that do the same level of work but understand their own business model. Don't sell knives you haven't made. Selling things that don't exist yet is trouble waiting to happen.
 
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