What is reasonable and legal?

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Couple of companies do this . MKT for one . I would be more concerned about in the amount of time it takes from order to knife in hand how are my tastes are going to change.

I would contact the maker asap now before this blows up .
 
Thanks for your input..
I am on fact finding mission not here to name/shame or even complain..
 
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I have heard of some ridiculous scams (send me a Rolex and I'll happily keep it, send me money and I'll happily keep that too, etc etc) and they usually involve the maker going through some personal tragedy and using that as an excuse to keep your assets. This is so rote that I imagine it is actually written in some playbook.

However, in your case, I don't think the situation is a scam. I think some companies are a bit unorthodox when it comes to the amount of trust they require from future customers. One person here said it - you're more an investor than a customer at this point. They can make a lot of compound interest off of a 100% deposit for 24+ months.

Is it ethical and legal? Well, as long as they are honest then yes.

Is it reasonable? That's up to you.
 
Thanks for your input.. I should clarify.. I didn't mean to imply what they were doing was illegal.. Oh god no!!

More specifically I was curious for curious sakes, what is "legal" in regards to refunds past a year.. In other words is it a "legal" requirement that a manufacture would HAVE to grant you a refund upon request for a 100% up front "pre purchase" that dragged on well beyond a year even though they had the disclaimer "there is no guaranteed delivery time". Can a company keep your money (refuse refund) legally indefinitely if they say "no guaranteed delivery time" up front?

BTW.. I haven't asked nor been refused a refund- I am just asking this scenario out of curiosity.
 
mlmcasual said:
Thanks for your input..
I am on fact finding mission not here to name/shame or even complain..
And why I have refrained from names. I am looking to get unbiased input outside the manufactures own fanbase and people who have much more experience dealing with various manufactures then I do..
I apologize if I have come to the wrong forum contextual - just figured this thread knows the best and worst cases so can help me..
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^ The GBU, is the sub-forum you come to, to get feedback & answers to questions like this. It's normal for you to get a wide range of responses, so take each (including mine) with a grain of salt. IMO- you're handling yourself very respectfully. :thumbup:

I see this topic of discussion, as being a very useful, to both new & old member's alike. And as you stated: this subject isn't intended just for one specific knife maker (Survive!), rather to all knife maker's, whom ascribe to this rather unique type of business model.

I for one, typically enjoy reading the vastly different perspectives from some of the very savvy, much more experienced member's here. I've learned a lot from them! :thumbup:

Survive1 knives, seems to make very nice quality knives, & it appears they're very popular; which leads to these sometimes very long wait times we see. Some people want a knife so badly, they're willing to wait a very long time, & pay up front...

There isn't any knife that I want badly enough. to do either.

I'll be very interested, learning the outcome of that Fuzzy Balls guy, & his refund.
 
braillediver said:
My tastes change and I don't know what I'd be interested in 1 or 2 years from now.
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This. If I found some amazing knife that I just had to have, ASAP and found out there was a 2 year wait, I'd probably just buy something else the following week. I waited a long time on a Direware knife once, but maker cost was 1/2 of secondary market and I thought I'd give it a try. For a regular fixed blade, 2 years is a definite no. There are too many great fixed blades out there, in stock, at dealers or with reasonable lead times.

I'd wait for an RMJ or a Winkler, but they have stated estimates, and they are no where near 2 years.
 
Here's an update, got a reply today (which I certainly wasn't expecting during Memorial day!) And I was told that they can issue a refund. However, they do not keep credit card info on hand, and so it will either be a check in the mail or online via Paypal, etc. I do think if it was an issue that they would be willing to do it a different way, they have always been outstanding in customer service. I told her I'd like to do it through paypal, so I will update again when it is done!
 
I had to cancel a GSO 5.0 at one point due to some unexpected medical bills and had no issue. Just call them, it's faster. Their customer service is great.
 
It is an obvious negative cash flow issue and an unstable business model that is highly likely to implode at some point. Think about it. It's not something that can be fixed by just continually taking in more orders. Hundreds upon hundreds of prepaid orders? No delivery date other than I don't know we haven't got there yet? Couple years worth of materials costs, operating costs, labor, profit all paid in advance?

Sure sounds like a solid business plan if ever I heard one. Hope it works out though, the 4.1 is in my top 5 favorite knives.

This is a production knife were talking about. If there is that much demand for them then perhaps they should be expanding the people lineup for production of all these prepaid orders rather than their non existent pre order doodle renderings.
 
mlmcasual said:
a- is it unusual for a knife maker to require 100% up front payment AND have 2+ years lead times?
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This is highly unusual, and is usually a clear sign that you should avoid the maker.

The only time up front payment could possibly be considered reasonable would be if you were requesting extremely rare/expensive materials.

Otherwise, asking for payment up front tells me that the maker can't afford to make knives.

Get your money back. This seems like a scam.
 
I do not know what is or is not legal under the circumstances. I do not necessarily think based on the information that you have presented that they are doing anything illegal or will do anything illegal. I also do not know whether they will or must refund your money if you ask for it back. That said, think about a few scenarios:

Survive! files for bankruptcy protection. Where is your money now and will you ever get it back? Will it even be worth trying to get it back at that point? Or they have somehow, in the hustle and bustle of rapidly successful company growth, misplaced or lost your order. What then? What proof will you even have that they ever received your money (which by the way is different than your proof that you sent the money). How about they say, "Hey, you want your money back? Sure, that's cool. However, 25% of your up-front payment is non-refundable as a penalty." Or, "Sure, we'll get that refund right out to you" and then they drag their feet until you finally give up.

I think you get it. The possibilities for a bad outcome are endless. Again, I'm not saying that is where this will end up, but in my line of work, I see this kind of stuff go on literally all day long. Sobering to say the least.

Good luck with whatever path you take.
 
I don't want to dump on them- they seem to have a great product and a dedicated following. But none of that matters without a good business plan.

My concern after 14 months would be they aren't getting caught up. Instead they seem to be getting further behind.
 
The knife maker doesn't have to go bankrupt to start the dominoes falling.

Say they have a fire in their workshop. They loose huge ground on production and maybe they loose the records of the pre-sales.

Like I said before this just seems like a sales disincentive to make sure some one really really really really really wants the knife.

It's a tough hole to dig out of. They can't just ramp up/grow production to meet demand since what makes them desirable hinges on their small size and attention paid to each blade.
 
Update 2, yesterday, they contacted me and refunded my money, no hassle and alot faster than I expected. I hope they can pull through the preorder successfully, I hope to own their product in the future
 
mlmcasual said:
Thanks for your input..
I am on fact finding mission not here to name/shame or even complain..
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First of all, no need to freak out ver the thread. If you are in this situation others walking in your shoes might benefit from stating the facts from your experience. The reason is, people need to be able to make informed decisions, and the company may not have any idea how easy it is to get in over your head and basically drown in unfulfilled orders. It's happened to a lot of makers over the years. Things going really good, great product, great price, the. Things get too good,ntoo much popularity too fast and no feasible way to deliver is a problem.
That isn't a complaint, rather an onservation from a concerned customer base. I've wanted a Survive knife for a while, but they are never in stock, never available, no timeframes, etx. So I just passed. I'm sure Guy and company are great folks, but ther seems to be a huge obstacle keeping the wheels from rolling smoothly. As long as people adhere to facts and refrain from insults, nothting to be secretive about. I've been following their forum for a while and spoke to his wife via the forums and gave them some pointers on managing their forums. Haven't heard mich news innthe last 8-10 months though.
 
AdamFuzzyballs said:
Update 2, yesterday, they contacted me and refunded my money, no hassle and alot faster than I expected. I hope they can pull through the preorder successfully, I hope to own their product in the future
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^ This is great, very enlightening news to hear for a change. It's refreshing to see Survive! knives, not only take your situation into account, but to also issue a refund in such an expeditious manner! :thumbup: :thumbup:


Skystorm said:
It is an obvious negative cash flow issue and an unstable business model that is highly likely to implode at some point. Think about it. It's not something that can be fixed by just continually taking in more orders. Hundreds upon hundreds of prepaid orders? No delivery date other than I don't know we haven't got there yet? Couple years worth of materials costs, operating costs, labor, profit all paid in advance?

Sure sounds like a solid business plan if ever I heard one. Hope it works out though, the 4.1 is in my top 5 favorite knives.

This is a production knife were talking about. If there is that much demand for them then perhaps they should be expanding the people lineup for production of all these prepaid orders rather than their non existent pre order doodle renderings.
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Mitchell Knives said:
This is highly unusual, and is usually a clear sign that you should avoid the maker.

The only time up front payment could possibly be considered reasonable would be if you were requesting extremely rare/expensive materials.

Otherwise, asking for payment up front tells me that the maker can't afford to make knives.

Get your money back. This seems like a scam.
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on_the_edge said:
I do not know what is or is not legal under the circumstances. I do not necessarily think based on the information that you have presented that they are doing anything illegal or will do anything illegal. I also do not know whether they will or must refund your money if you ask for it back. That said, think about a few scenarios:

Survive! files for bankruptcy protection. Where is your money now and will you ever get it back? Will it even be worth trying to get it back at that point? Or they have somehow, in the hustle and bustle of rapidly successful company growth, misplaced or lost your order. What then? What proof will you even have that they ever received your money (which by the way is different than your proof that you sent the money). How about they say, "Hey, you want your money back? Sure, that's cool. However, 25% of your up-front payment is non-refundable as a penalty." Or, "Sure, we'll get that refund right out to you" and then they drag their feet until you finally give up.

I think you get it. The possibilities for a bad outcome are endless. Again, I'm not saying that is where this will end up, but in my line of work, I see this kind of stuff go on literally all day long. Sobering to say the least.

Good luck with whatever path you take.
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braillediver said:
I don't want to dump on them- they seem to have a great product and a dedicated following. But none of that matters without a good business plan.

My concern after 14 months would be they aren't getting caught up. Instead they seem to be getting further behind.
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Danke42 said:
The knife maker doesn't have to go bankrupt to start the dominoes falling.

Say they have a fire in their workshop. They loose huge ground on production and maybe they loose the records of the pre-sales.

Like I said before this just seems like a sales disincentive to make sure some one really really really really really wants the knife.

It's a tough hole to dig out of. They can't just ramp up/grow production to meet demand since what makes them desirable hinges on their small size and attention paid to each blade.
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^^^^^ Excellent comments! :thumbup:
 
FWIW, I have three Survive! Knives (GSO 3.5, 4.1, 5.1) and I looked at the Survive! Starter (the pre-order) when it was first announced, and decided I didn't like the open ended terms and didn't buy a spot. IMO, they were very clear and upfront on what the terms of the plan were and that it was a kind of kick-starter with no dates.

Guy and Ellie are stand up people and if you want your money back, just ask them.
 
I still don't understand why OP hasn't just picked up the phone or emailed the folks who have his money and asked them these questions. Seems to me that if they say "you can have your money back anytime you want it," there'd be no need to ask anyone else anything about it. If the answer was otherwise...
 
Alot of people seem to hinge on the good guy bad guy issue. Lots of business' have found themselves way down the rabbit hole and it had nothing to do with whether they were a solid stand up person or not. Just simple economics. If you do not have the initial funding to do your own R&D, prototyping, materials sourcing, etc. for manufacturing then starting off you are already in trouble and need a longer term SBA loan or investors just to make you viable long term so you don't run out of funds somewhere.
Crowdfunding has its place but not for every single product you want to release. I would much rather owe the bank for 15 years on a .gov backed small business loan than non existent products to 10000 individual angry mob crowdfunders.
Personally I don't see the popularity of them lasting long term, you have a better chance of catching a two horned unicorn than obtaining one of their knives from them.
 
Skystorm said:
Alot of people seem to hinge on the good guy bad guy issue. Lots of business' have found themselves way down the rabbit hole and it had nothing to do with whether they were a solid stand up person or not. Just simple economics. If you do not have the initial funding to do your own R&D, prototyping, materials sourcing, etc. for manufacturing then starting off you are already in trouble and need a longer term SBA loan or investors just to make you viable long term so you don't run out of funds somewhere.
Crowdfunding has its place but not for every single product you want to release. I would much rather owe the bank for 15 years on a .gov backed small business loan than non existent products to 10000 individual angry mob crowdfunders.
Personally I don't see the popularity of them lasting long term, you have a better chance of catching a two horned unicorn than obtaining one of their knives from them.
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:thumbup:
 
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