What is the point?

[Kevin Jones]

I am one of STevens biggest fans on the forum simply because of posts like this. I am a knife guy. I have sold knives for a LIVING..I have designed knives...I have consulted with major knife companies..I have written dozens of magazine articles.. I buy knives. I sleep knives. I eat knives...BUT...I couldn't make a knife if I went to school for 4 years in old Warshington to do it. I have no interest in making knives. Yet, I know more about knives than most makers of knives. There. I said it. I spilled the beans.

I have probably owned close to one thousand knives. I have tested hundreds of knives. I have critiqued hundreds of knives and gone to dozens of shows, handled thousands of knives and still buy many per year. I know damn well what I like, too.

When makers start listening to their best collectors, they will, in turn become successful. People know what they like. They really do.

D. Lisch, as a new maker I hope you eventully make some good copies of Wheeler knives. You know why-?-Wheeler knives are in HIGH demand. If Nick were a full time maker he would probbaly have a realistic 3-5 year backlog. Someone needs to step in and make some Wheeler knives, just like half of Arkansas makes FISK Knives(and some Crowells too)! After you make a few hundred of them, then go get creazy and follow your muse. I bet she looks a whole lot different then.

People want Wheeler knives(and Fisk knives)! Its simply marketing! If you want to make a living selling knives, make knives people want and stop getting offended when people suggest changes or modifications to what you make! You can't eat knives! I have tried! They f-ing hurt going down!

Good post.
Nick markets like Harley Davidson used to; the less you make the more people want them.

 

[Hmathews]

I have read this thread with interest from the start. As a maker the knives I make will always be judged and found wanting by some and desirable by others. They always have been and always will be. I don't expect any difference here. It is just that here the judge (all of us) is free to comment and expected to. It might not be appropriate in other locations.

It has been said that criticism, that is constructive, is good, but that the source should be looked at to determine the level of knowledge or experience. I don't have a clue who most of the people are on these forums or what their experience level is. Some I suspect is relatively high and some is pretty low. As a maker I have to give consideration to all the comments made by people on the forums because he just might be on to something, no matter what his experience level is. You certainly don't have to be a maker to recognize quality in a knife or problems in one either. I have heard makers say "let him make one" or "where is the knife you made?" when someone points out a problem with one of their knives or suggests a change. Wrong attitude!

The forums are full of advice. Some is good and some is bad. Sorting it out is what makes this business interesting. I appreciate comments on knives I post and understand that not everybody will like the style of knives I like to make. I firmly believe that as soon as the maker stops trying to improve his skills or stops listening to the customer, it's time to sell the grinder or forge and go home.

 

[HTMD]

I don't have a clue who most of the people are on these forums or what their experience level is. Some I suspect is relatively high and some is pretty low.

This forum offers fairly useful tool for assessing the credibility of any given poster. Simply click on the poster's name in the upper left corner of the post. A drop down menu will let you find all posts by that individual. This can be a very helpful experience in judging the worth of a given poster's comments. If someone responds to one of my posts with a rant of one sort or another, I'll check for a pattern in their other posts. If they're frequently negative pot-shot sorts of comments of a hit and run nature, then I won't bother to respond. If they seem to frequently make good points and can engage in a useful dialogue, then I'll offer to reconsider my position and thank them for suggesting an alternative view. It's a very useful tool and I suggest a thread like this one represents an especially good opportunity to explore the usefulness of that tool.

 

[Stephen F]

There have been some good points made in this thread, Megalobytes and RAN's strike a chord with me. What we need is balance!

On the matter of critique then I think my biggest issue is that sometimes it is NOT critique that you see, it is merely a re-iteration of personal preference. Take the Gann knife posted by Senator ....... we know that some people don't like spanish notches, and we know some people prefer stag and ivory to wood, so what has the so called "critique" actually done except reiterate a few peoples personal preferences? The size of the spanish notch .... that is an interesting critique, would it be better aesthetically sligly smaller is a good question.

Personally I think it will be a very sad day if a maker who wants to add a Spanish notch or blackwood chooses not to because of what a few keep saying ........ there is a REAL danger that the forums end up creating a "marketing" orientated ethos in much the same way as record labels create bands and music that will sell to the masses! When that happens we have lost the heart and soul, the very essence that is the individualism of custom and hand made knives.

To avoid this I have realised that we should not try and censor or curtail the comments, we have seen that some can be very valuable, but rather we should add differing views and ideas, openly, and regularly. We should have balance, and that means the people who don't like the comments or disagree, speaking up!

As far as true critique is concerned then it is not surprising that makers are in support of it - they have the most to gain and the least to lose ...... if they have a piece slammed, they learn from it and try again, if they succeed the previous piece is forgotten and of little consequence to them, BUT the person who may pay the price is the collector who bought the piece but now may face difficulties if they want to resell .............. the collector pays the real price of public criticism every time ...... now I am not advocating protectionism, but we have to bear this in mind, or it could end up that we see fewer and fewer knives being posted. This cycle will eventually lead homogenous style of knife, which causes over supply and eventually a lack of interest due to saturation ....... in much the same way as innovators and entrepreneurs lead by doing something different, savvy collectors are not necessarily following the latest trend.

I personally would love to see a makers "unsold" gallery, which is genuinely opened up for a "why do you think this didn't sell quickly" debate. That would be a real learning exercise!

Cheers,

Stephen

 

[RogerP]

It has been said that criticism, that is constructive, is good, but that the source should be looked at to determine the level of knowledge or experience. I don't have a clue who most of the people are on these forums or what their experience level is. Some I suspect is relatively high and some is pretty low. As a maker I have to give consideration to all the comments made by people on the forums because he just might be on to something, no matter what his experience level is.

This is something that comes with time, as you get to know the forum membership. As Buddy mentioned, you can also peruse the prior posts of any member - though if there are many thousands of those, that will take time, too.

Roger

 

[Keith Montgomery]

This thread has opened up a great dialogue, and I guess that is the point.

Criticism should not be taken as an insult, unless that is the way it was intended. It should be taken as a way to enter into a dialogue that can be beneficial for everyone that takes part in, or even just reads that thread. When someone points out something that they don't care for in a design, that is an opportunity for the maker to give the reasons for why it was made that way.

 

[Hmathews]

Some of the guys aren't hard to figure out at all. Some are more difficult. There is obviously a wide range of valuable experience present on this fourm and in nearly all cases the willingness to learn is refreshing. While as a maker I like posting pictures of knives, but it's not done for the critique. It is done to let the world know what we are making. It is amazing what posting one picture on this forum will do to the number of hits on a website. We never post a picture unless we are willing to make more knives that are very similar.

I often want an honest opinion of the knives I make. When I do, I'll ask a someone for that opinion that I know and respect for the knowledge of knives he posseses. This frees him up to say what he needs to say without fear of insulting me. My worst "voluntary" critic is my twin brother. He has been collecting knives for 45 years and made his first one about that time too. Charlie doesn't mind hitting me right between the eyes whether I'm ready or not. In fact I think that he enjoys telling me that it will look good once I'm finished. Criticism is always easier to accept when it is expected, followed by helpful comments and when done with respect.

Just saying that you don't like something about a knife without following it up with reasons and suggestions is like saying you don't like the color red. It's just another opinion and I don't feel obligated to respond. The next guy might love it. I don't like stainless guards on carbon steel blades. It's just my opinion. It has no reflection on those thousands of people that do like them or the makers that make them. I have made them myself and likely will again.

I am always careful in making comments on a makers knife in person or on a forum because unless I know that he expects and wants a critical response I don't want to surprise him. If asked I will provide my opinion and reasons for it. If I just don't like the stainless guard on a carbon steel blade he'll never know.

 

[SharpByCoop]

This thread has opened up a great dialogue, and I guess that is the point.

Yup. Lots of interest, and good ideas.

Criticism should not be taken as an insult, unless that is the way it was intended. It should be taken as a way to enter into a dialogue that can be beneficial for everyone that takes part in, or even just reads that thread.

Ahhhhhh. Therein lies the rub, Keith. The dreaded should word. How misinterpreted this can get.

When someone points out something that they don't care for in a design, that is an opportunity for the maker to give the reasons for why it was made that way.

Hey, I mentioned I was curious about something in a maker's construction I was simply unclear about, and the misinterpretation (incorrect or not) led into bad vibes.

It SHOULD not have gotten out of hand, and yet it did. There was plenty of tactful words used too.

I bring this back up only to evidence that in the best of all worlds we can offer 'constructive criticism', but this is a much less-than-perfect communication medium here.

Human nature being as it is, I will still find myself saying little in regard to 'helping' another openly or to get more education. There is more to lose than to gain in terms of risk. BTDT.

My kumbaya opinion....

Coop

 

[NickWheeler]

I am a marketing genious.

LMAO

Just wait until I unload the 500 customs I have been forging and stashing away in the closet




Seriously though, thanks for the kind words Anthony... that really means a lot coming from you!!!

Lots of really good posts on this thread.

Constructive criticism is tough to give from a maker's perspective. I remember asking Jerry Fisk to look over a couple of my knives in Atlanta about 6 years ago. Jerry told me to go talk to Greg Neely "cuz he's better at that sort of thing."

I asked Greg if he had a minute if he'd look over my work. He smiled and said, "They look real nice."

I said, "Well thank you, but I really want you to tell me what needs to be better."

"I'm sure they're nice, they look well made."

"Um... Sir... what I was really hoping for was you to REALLY look them over and tell me what you think and what I need to do to improve."

"Sorry Son, but I'd rather not... that can be an ugly road to go down."

"Please."

"People ask for critiques, but they don't really want to hear the bad, they want to hear they look nice and then move on."

"No... I want to get better and I want a Mastersmith... one with an eye like your's... to critique them."

"You really want me to?"

"Yes. Please."

"You realize you might not like what I have to say?"

"Yes Sir."

"Okay boy, come on around the table here and take a seat... Let's look at these knives."



He then did something that was (IMHO) brilliant. He looked them over very carefully, handed them back to me, and said, "Okay... Now YOU tell me what's wrong with them."

I told him everything that I thought could be better (but didn't know how to actually DO better). He smiled and said, "Huh, this was easy. You already know what's wrong, you just gotta learn how to not do it on the next one."

He then very generoulsy explained to me, in fine detail, how to "not do it" on the next one.

That helped me tremendously!!! It was infinitely better than a pat on the butt and an atta boy.

But as I have seen after being asked by a couple dozen guys for "critiques" that Mr. Neely was exactly right. MOST guys DO want a pat on the butt... They don't REALLY want to hear that something (maybe LOTS of things) are not done as well as they could be.


When he handed me my Js certificate last June, he said something like, "I knew you'd be back here at some point."

So I think it's not that hard to see the guys that really want to get better. If they don't, it will show, and then you just won't offer advise anymore.

Or not.


I also agree with Stephen... it's hard to say that just airing something like, "I like Ironwood and you used Maple" doesn't really do much except state that you don't like the material choice. But I suppose that's okay too

 

[HTMD]

"Constructive criticism is characterized by a compassionate attitude towards the person requesting criticism. Having greater experience, talent, respect, knowledge in a specific field and superior communication skills, this person is intending to uplift the other person materially, morally, emotionally or spiritually. For to be successful in his compassionate criticism the critic must be in some kind of healthy personal relationship with the other, as parent to child, friend to friend, teacher to student, spouse to spouse or any kind of recognized authority in a specific field.

Nick - That's a great story and a perfect example of 'constructive criticism' at its best. AND it could never happen in a public forum. The valuable part of the process took place in private. You were a student who was really ready to learn and you sought out (were referred to) a teacher with the experience and consumate command of the critical skills and body of knowledge who also had the ability to engage with you in a healthy and compassionate manner, resulting in a very successful outcome.

I'm reluctant to point out the obvious, yet I feel obliged to do so. Anyone who imagines they are engaged in a process here on this forum that even remotely resembles true 'constructive criticism' is, IMHO, engaged in mere conversation. Conversation, dialogue, exchange of opinions etc. is a very good thing facilitated be the dynamics of a public forum. It may be useful and informative, but it is not 'constructive criticism' as Nick has described. And now to call a spade a spade, we (me also) seem to have a greatly inflated sense of our own importance. Some of us have spent years in the study of custom knives, photographed hundreds, even thousands of knives, written articles and books on the subject, presented seminars and spent many thousands of dollars on knives, refining our tastes... but that does not put us on the same plane as a Nick Wheeler or much less a Greg Neely. Is that really so hard to accept?

 

[Kohai999]

........ It may be useful and informative, but it is not 'constructive criticism' as Nick has described. And now to call a spade a spade, we (me also) seem to have a greatly inflated sense of our own importance. Some of us have spent years in the study of custom knives, photographed hundreds, even thousands of knives, written articles and books on the subject, presented seminars and spent many thousands of dollars on knives, refining our tastes... but that does not put us on the same plane as a Nick Wheeler or much less a Greg Neely. Is that really so hard to accept?

Don't need to be Nick Wheeler or Greg Neely to know what we like in knives and buy them...we aren't supposed to be Nick or Greg....

Buddy, the King Tut Dagger would have never happened if it was not for one discriminating collector.....

When a maker is advised that something might be off by a scosh by a collector, that is not the same as advising that the brand of sandpaper being used is less than ideal...we KNOW what we like to see, and other makers advise how THEY do what they do...it all helps...if you don't want to critique on the Forums...then don't...no one has a gun to your head.

I won't tell you how to practice medicine, you don't tell me how to be a salesman.....but we are both collectors, and might have made a knife or two to learn how it gets done.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Don't need to be Nick Wheeler or Greg Neely to know what we like in knives and buy them...we aren't supposed to be Nick or Greg....

Buddy, the King Tut Dagger would have never happened if it was not for one discriminating collector.....

When a maker is advised that something might be off by a scosh by a collector, that is not the same as advising that the brand of sandpaper being used is less than ideal...we KNOW what we like to see, and other makers advise how THEY do what they do...it all helps...if you don't want to critique on the Forums...then don't...no one has a gun to your head.

I won't tell you how to practice medicine, you don't tell me how to be a salesman.....but we are both collectors, and might have made a knife or two to learn how it gets done.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I agree STeven, except the King Tut dagger would have never happened if not for King Tut.

 

[Arthur Washburn]

I don’t visit this part of the forum near as often as I should. When I do visit I am always sure to find a provocative thread or post made by STeven.

When I got started making knives I went to respected makers and purveyors and had them critique my work. I wanted their honest opinion with no smoke. Some were brutal others where eloquent. I reigned in my pride, took the criticism in stride and worked hard to improve my work. As I improved so did the aforementioned peoples opinions. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people here but frankly posting a picture and getting feedback isn’t going to work for me. I’ll stick to handing the knife to an individual and get their opinion.

 

[RWS]

Just look what STeven has started.....him and his overly assertive posting style, and now all this as a result.....not to mention the capital "S" and capital "T" in his name.....geez

 

[HTMD]

"Don't need to be Nick Wheeler or Greg Neely to know what we like in knives and buy them...we aren't supposed to be Nick or Greg...." Right - we are their patrons. It is an important role that has been validated throughout history. Ideally, artists and patrons have equal power while staying out of each other's way. This is why I suggested in the recent discussion concerning waiting lists that some makers ought to think about getting on my list. That's not a sign of arrogance. It's simply a recognition that this is a two way street.

I accept that we collectors are not all the same. Some desire input into the artistic/design/materials decisions and some makers want that input. This is where I differ.

I want the artist to wow me with their best creative effort, to surprise me with something I never thought of before. It kind of spoils the experience for me if I have to provide much in the way of input.

That pure creative spark eminating from deep within the artist is what I will pay for - an idea they must realize - a vision that keeps them awake at night. Different strokes for different folks. That's just the way it works for me.

"Buddy, the King Tut Dagger would have never happened if it was not for one discriminating collector....." Kevin's response below not withstanding, I would suggest that the King Tut Dagger would never have happened but for Buster Warenski. Should Phil Lobred wish to correct me on this, I will gladly accept it. But my guess is that once again, the same patron/artist dynamic characterized by equal power and equal respect so successful throughout history was at work.

"...if you don't want to critique on the Forums...then don't...no one has a gun to your head." To be honest, I'm not likely to be interested in a maker who cares what I think! But it's OK with me if others (makers and/or collectors) feel differently.

"I won't tell you how to practice medicine..." I'm glad to hear that.
"You don't tell me how to be a salesman..." Of course, I'm not qualified.

STeven, you know (and I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression) that I enjoy and appreciate these discussions for which you have such a knack. This is a great thread you started... just look at the number of views and replies. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Kohai999]

I accept that we collectors are not all the same. Some desire input into the artistic/design/materials decisions and some makers want that input. This is where I differ. [/COLOR]

I want the artist to wow me with their best creative effort, to surprise me with something I never thought of before. It kind of spoils the experience for me if I have to provide much in the way of input.

That pure creative spark eminating from deep within the artist is what I will pay for - an idea they must realize - a vision that keeps them awake at night. Different strokes for different folks. That's just the way it works for me.

"Buddy, the King Tut Dagger would have never happened if it was not for one discriminating collector....." Kevin's response below not withstanding, I would suggest that the King Tut Dagger would never have happened but for Buster Warenski. Should Phil Lobred wish to correct me on this, I will gladly accept it.

STeven, you know (and I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression) that I enjoy and appreciate these discussions for which you have such a knack. This is a great thread you started... just look at the number of views and replies. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

This thread was not started to change the world, or the world of knife collecting....it is maybe, just maybe, a glimmer into the collective thought processes of some of the Forumites about constructive critique, and is/is it not useful?....put into perspective, thousands of Forum members, 3,500+ views....and less less than 150 reponses, many of them multiples, suggesting perhaps 75 active participants(Phil Lobred pointed this out)..this is GREAT!...but we are still a very small sampling.

Buddy, we really have different approaches....have no problem being on a waiting list, and, many times, truth be told, if I am not happy with the finished product that I specified and ordered...I will take it to a grinder....because that is the most serious form of constructive critique that I can think of....and I want it the way that I want it...If I had the patience, space, tools and ability to do the whole job myself, I would...but I don't...heresy, and guilty as charged.

Phil told me that the idea for the Tut Dagger II came about from conversations with Herman Schneider....Buster really wanted to do it, so it happened..and was willing to learn all the skills that it took, that he did not already possess, in order to do sole authorship...truly remarkable.....in agreement with you, both collector and maker are necessary, but I didn't see that point in what you originally wrote.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

Don't need to be Nick Wheeler or Greg Neely to know what we like in knives and buy them...we aren't supposed to be Nick or Greg....

Exactly. There are many here who have much to offer. A number of makers have indicated that they value the contributions of the forums - I can't help but wonder why that is so hard for some to accept?

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Exactly. There are many here who have much to offer. A number of makers have indicated that they value the contributions of the forums - I can't help but wonder why that is so hard for some to accept?
Roger

Same here Roger. It seems some are afraid forums and those who participate on such may have influence on makers and the industry in general.

Collectors should drive the market as it's our purchases (money) that sustain it.

 

[Ren the devils trailboss]

How hostile people get when constructive criticism is given.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I'm getting in late to this thread and I admit I have not read the entire thread as I am already pressed for time but here is my .02 cents..

I think that to receive constructive criticism one must have a "Teachable spirit" If you are easily offended by somone critiquing your hard work then do not ask for opinions. That said the populace here for the most part are first the customer of the knife maker and second a fairly knowledgeable consumer as opposed to other goods that are purchased. ( that is my opinion only )

Second In order to give criticism I think one should know what they are talking about before one gives a critique or advice.

I think we have seen bad examples of both equations but mostly morons who know nothing about knife making dressing down a knife maker...

Best..

Ren

 

[peterinct]

Same here Roger. It seems some are afraid forums and those who participate on such may have influence on makers and the industry in general.

Collectors should drive the market as it's our purchases (money) that sustain it.

I would say Kevin has accurately summed it up!

Additionally, I think there is more than one market. I know that I am in a totally different league than those that have upwards of four figure sums to invest/spend on knives.

Nonetheless, this is a great place to learn and view some spectacular steel.

Peter