What is the point?

[Stephen F]

Different locales, different risks/rewards....your chances of certain events are lower than mine....you know that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Steven, I will not second guess your circumstances, but it seems to me that the existence of the collection is established with or without pictures ..... But its your right to choose not to post them.

Stephen

 

[John White]

To widen the thread a little, the "critique" is a mainstay of teaching in the ABS. An Apprentice or Journeyman who asks a Master for a "critique" of his knife obligates the Master to criticize in detail the new maker's work, and offer methods of improvement.

These "critiques" were absolutely essential to my improvement,( such as it is) in the craft. A new maker, particularly, is too close to his work to be able to fully judge it, every time, himself. Still, it takes a firm resolve that this is all to the good, to not let your feelings be hurt by serious criticism.

The posting of work on the Forum is an opportunity to receive a "critique" from another quarter, the collectors who, after all, buy our work, and I, for one, appreciate it. I learn from postings and criticism of my work, and as much from the discussion of the work of other makers whom I admire.

Although I, also, don't see this thread as directed to STeven, I would say that his critical reviews, especially the maker by maker critiques of such venues as the AKI, are the closest thing we have to an "Art Critic" in residence, and we are better informed for it.

Thanks for the opportunity this forum gives to the maker,
John

 

[Les Robertson]

I have been told by more than one knife magazine editor, that many makers won't submit pictures due to the fear of criticism.

Many more wouldn't submit knives for articles that were "testing" knives. For obvious reasons.

Collectors who post a photo want to share their new acquisition. However, collectors should, no need to understand that their new "pride and joys" beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. More to the point the "custom knife education level" that their "eye" can give their brain.

Makers who post their photos here, understand (or should) that this will garner a number of "Nice Knife" posts. But they are also opening themselves up to "WTF were you thinking" posts as well. As we have all seen many members here ...to include myself, are free with their opinions.

Makes should note, that you will learn far more and improve your knife making much quicker from the "critiques" than the "You Rock Dude" posts.

Each of us reaches our opinion(s) based on our experience(s). Makers and Collectors alike should first consider the members background and experience with regards to custom knives.

Expertise in one area does not necessarily mean the same level of expertise in a different area of the custom knife market.

I routinely visit this site as there are many things to be learned here.

I have been introduced to Phillip Patton, Mark Terrell and Steve Gatlin because of this site. I have started buying knives from each and will eventually do an article on them for Knives Illustrated.

Obviously these articles will be good for the maker, their collectors and their favorite dealer .

STeven is on of my top 10 favorite posters on this forum. He is a treasure trove of information. His critiques of knives are generally spot on. Boys and girls this takes years and years of experience with custom knives to be able to make the critiques he does.

If he comes across as a little "harsh" and your tender feelings are somewhat hurt..Too Bad. You don't like the words he uses...Too Bad. You don't like the style with which he writes his critiques....Too Bad.

STeven, thank you for what you do and what you bring to this forum.

While this may not be about STeven, but a way to find a happy medium to give the "Kumbaya" feeling to each who posts a photo here.

If you can't take it...don't post your photos here. Post them in the Gallery. Where Kumbaya is alive and well. This is where you can feel the "Love".

This forum is for the exchange of information with regards to custom knives. This information will help makers, collectors and dealers alike.

We get to see knives that are incredible and make a mental note to do further research on this maker. Conversely we see photos of knives that allow us to draw a line through a makers name. As they require no additional scrutiny.

Instead of focusing on the words or method of delivery. Focus on the message the words bring.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Personally I think if your are going to critique you should be prepared to expose yourself to the same ... i.e. post pictures. I guess your reticence to share your collection STeven means you could take this as being directed at you, but it is a general point also.

I certainly have no problem with that.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I know of one time where a critique by Steven pointed out something that lead to an improvement in a knife that was being made for me. Steven's input will always be welcome by me, and I want him to always be as honest as he was then.

 

[2knife]

This is a funny "world" we live in. One of the most entertaining threads i ever read here was a "Knives,- or Bowies of 2007"? , where everyone was sharing incredible photos, visually stunning.. Then, somewhere several pages into the conversation a fellow DBrock?, hijacked the thread, cussed everyone out and blamed makers for just making high priced knives no one would ever use.

Then, he posted pictures of his own knives, that he had made, which looked crude, and proceeded to get insulted more.. Then, he was banned.

But i remember that because, here is a man who does not belong to the "club", seeing all this and realizing -to him-, it is "meaningless".

I understand his point. To most of the world, this is possibly the perception.

To people who are not endoctrinated most of this high art must seem vain,.. and useless.

I still feel that "custom" knives have taken a path toward high art.. not that they can't cut, but that they Wont. And i am guilty too. We are a strange lot, who "collect" and offer expert opinions on what is "good and bad". Never doing more than mixing words.

What does any of it accomplish?

Cliff Stamp got banned too. He was some sort of physics student, who everyone had become familiar with. I think he had honorable intentions,
though like everyone, made mistakes. One of his last threads i read was a dialogue, between several experts, who challenged his views and lack of evidence for some things he had put forward as fact. Steven relished in seeing him taken apart, then proudly posted this as a trophy, on his signature- that he had been banned.

Really, did this accomplish anything meaningful? Performance should be a main issue always here,.. but there is so little interest, except on Production Knife threads.

I posted links to photos of incredible micrographs of 52100 that Ed Fowler had made showing refined grain structures, beyond what science would have thought possible with this steel. This post here did not receive one following comment, I find that shameful.
David

 

[thombrogan]

Dr. Stamp got banned for stabbing Spark in the back with a complaint he chose to make after Spark had spent years defending him to detractors. Dr. Stamp would selectively run certain companies and makers through the ringer while ignoring or excusing similar practices from others.

One of those companies was Kershaw and STeven is a very close friend with their sales manager, Thomas Welk. If you saw a close friend busting his tail to please tens of thousands of customers (counting Wally World and other large chains that sell Kershaw/KAI knives) as well as discerning/discriminating knife folks get his butt handed back on a platter for not heat treating large batches of knives with the same festidious care as some custom makers or for grinding their edges so as to reduce warranty returns, well, maybe you'd be happy he was banned, too.

I like Dr. Stamp, but I'm not going to say "oh boo hoo! Bring him back! He's an underdog for whom I must route." If you miss him, he's accessible by email, telephone, and personal visit.

Regarding Fowler's treatment of 52100, why do you claim his grain structures were beyond what science thought possible? Are those his or Rex's words or your own?

 

[Kohai999]

......is a very close friend with their sales manager, Thomas Welk. If you saw a close friend busting his tail to please tens of thousands of customers (counting Wally World and other large chains that sell Kershaw/KAI knives) as well as discerning/discriminating knife folks get his butt handed back on a platter for not heat treating large batches of knives with the same festidious care as some custom makers or for grinding their edges so as to reduce warranty returns, well, maybe you'd be happy he was banned, too.

David mentioned Cliff getting banned....and wanted to know why I was happy about it??????

1. Thomas Welk is one of my best friends.....we have been tight for over 15 years...I have laughed and cried with him, tattooed him, and been subjected to abuse by his sons while he gleefully held me down by my neck....

Cliff called Thomas a liar repeatedly, and happily on these Forums, after I told Thomas how great it would be if he participated on the Forums for almost two years...if someone insulted a close friend like that in my presence.......it would be very ugly, messy, and fun for a minute or two.

2. There was a debacle where THE HEADS of a department at BYU came to the Forums to discuss FFD2....and Cliff made it his life's vocation to drag them through the mud AND insult Wayne Goddard in the process...WAYNE frikkin GODDARD!!!!!!!He knows almost as much as your hero, Ed Fowler, David, he is a great and kind man, who has freely shared observations and tips/tricks with THOUSANDS of people.

Damned right I was happy, I threw a party that day...made a special pinata that looked like Cliff and filled it with unwrapped Baby Ruth bars.

I greatly admired Cliff's intellect, but hated what he did to my friends, and other people worthy of respect....THAT was actually around the time I stopped being such an ass.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Jon Brand]

STeven, knowing that I missed out on you being an ass really makes me feel like a newbie. Any memorable links?

I'm glad to see a conversation about this. I think with out criticism there is no point to a forum and it would just be a website. Makers will benefit by keeping up with demand (in terms of design) and everybody can have some fun by keeping this lively with debate while learning at the same time. I would not want to insult anybody so wording needs to be thought out. I am a shy person and never know the right things to say but, oh well. If I meet any of you in person I appoligize if I seem awkward or rude.

Anyway, the point is.. I want to see you be an ass, STeven!

 

[2knife]

Thank you for the explanation, Thom and Steven. I understand better now. No hard feelings whatsoever.
David

 

[peterinct]

For me, this is really a pretty simple thing. If a maker posts his work, he opens the door as they say in the courtroom, because the post really is a: "Look what I just made, what do you think" sort of post, even absent words to that effect, and the maker is taking a calculated risk with a possible commercial payoff, so he assumes the risk of getting some negative comments and must at least tolerate them if he wants the possible payoff (new orders, prestige), it's fair.

But, when a collector posts his newest toy, I believe the right thing to do is praise, or keep silent. Collectors rarely if ever post pics of their new knives looking for criticism and it sure does take the wind from their sails if responses make them feel badly about their purchase, it's just not very nice to do, after all, isn't posting your newest knife a big, and enjoyable part of collecting? Why would anyone want to upset, and potentially turn off a fellow collector, outside of ego?

Yes, forums like this one can be useful to create growth, both of makers and collectors, but, when a collector just bought a new knife, wants to show it off, that is not the time for growth/criticism, it's the time for sharing his joy with him, or, if you don't want to, fine, but don't ruin or taint his moment because you feel it's your duty to do so. Is it duty, or ego in such cases?

There's a word that captures the idea of helping people who don't want your help, based on the belief you know better, it's called tyranny. History is full of tyrants who felt a genuine duty to save people from themselves...

Just my opinion of course.

I fully agree with this philosophy.

Also, while I have liked knives and used them for several decades, I certainly don't consider myself an authority or expert on them. I do know what I like and have been told I have a good eye for fine things.

My comments are MY opinions and nothing more.

I know when I read posts it is only natural to consider the source and value it accordingly.

Peter

 

[Keith Montgomery]

David, performance is definitely one of the reasons for purchasing knives, but not the only one. There are people, like myself, that collect knives because there is something about them besides performance that gets our juices flowing. To say that performance should be the main reason for purchasing knives belittles those that collect them for other reasons.

 

[Jose Reyes]

David, performance is definitely one of the reasons for purchasing knives, but not the only one. There are people, like myself, that collect knives because there is something about them besides performance that gets our juices flowing. To say that performance should be the main reason for purchasing knives belittles those that collect them for other reasons.

I agree, Keith, but the best "art" knives are functional tools too. Not that there's anything wrong with collecting "handles"...

 

[2knife]

Kieth,
I see how it might be considered an unfair remark, i made. I apologize that it may have come out narrow minded.

My intent was to say, for example if you visit the other areas of this forum, there is a lot more offered in "testing and reviews", primarily factory focused. The personal aspect of custom knives presents a difficult thing, How do you focus on blade performance with examples here, without bringing personalities and feelings into it? . it would be more interesting if makers themselves would more often post test results of their own, including destructive tests (such as one i just read on the Chris Reeves Green Beret- Production knife)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543407
I know testing must be some facet to any makers work. I do not like the idea of accepting just a comfortable standard- and i doubt this is the case with the majority. But, lets hear more about it.. As one who enjoys knives this is what i find interesting, personally. How do we make them stronger, sharper, better?
David

 

[Kohai999]

I agree, Keith, but the best "art" knives are functional tools too. Not that there's anything wrong with collecting "handles"...

Most, if not all, knives SHOULD be at least FUNCTIONAL tools, but when you are talking about "ART", all bets are off....because the mindset/response from the artist will be "Why should I be limited by your constricting criteria"?...and I don't have an answer for that....can only speak with the almighty dollar in that case....because, when you are purchasing pure "art", function by definition, becomes the least important criteria, and the most important criteria is "do you love it?".

What does this have to do with constructive criticism? Seems that you would have to actually purchase the knife, or at least hold it in your hand to ascertain if it was actually functional.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Jose Reyes]

Most, if not all, knives SHOULD be at least FUNCTIONAL tools, but when you are talking about "ART", all bets are off....because the mindset/response from the artist will be "Why should I be limited by your constricting criteria"?...and I don't have an answer for that....can only speak with the almighty dollar in that case....because, when you are purchasing pure "art", function by definition, becomes the least important criteria, and the most important criteria is "do you love it?".

What does this have to do with constructive criticism? Seems that you would have to actually purchase the knife, or at least hold it in your hand to ascertain if it was actually functional.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I've read the story of the maker who didn't bother to HT a knife since it would never be used. Don't know what knife it was or how I would percieve it's artistic merit. Don't know if I'd consider it an art knife or an art object. The metallurgical aspect of the knife is high art in and of itself. Damascus and HT can add an artistic flair and requires skill to perform properly at an "art" level.

As for criticism I would point that out, hopefully politely. Are they a jeweler or a knifemaker? Maybe akin to a Jpz style artisan that makes only the mounting. If you are going to spend that amount of energy without making a proper blade maybe it would be best to start with another maker's blade?

The dollar does speak most loudly. If the knives are selling then someone is happy with them. No problem if they don't function as a tool.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I agree Jose, but what I meant was that even if the knives are made to be as functional as they can be, how many people are going to be using them, or testing them, so that we can get an idea of the performance? I want my knives to be made as if my life might some day depend on them, but I have no intention of using most of them.

 

[RogerP]

.

My intent was to say, for example if you visit the other areas of this forum, there is a lot more offered in "testing and reviews", primarily factory focused. The personal aspect of custom knives presents a difficult thing, How do you focus on blade performance with examples here, without bringing personalities and feelings into it? .

David,

Have you tested any of your Fowler bowies?

Roger

 

[RogerP]

I've read the story of the maker who didn't bother to HT a knife since it would never be used. Don't know what knife it was or how I would percieve it's artistic merit. Don't know if I'd consider it an art knife or an art object. The metallurgical aspect of the knife is high art in and of itself. Damascus and HT can add an artistic flair and requires skill to perform properly at an "art" level.

I definitely aree with this. Perhaps much turns on the definition of "art knife", but to my mind, if function is such a diminished consideration that it is significantly compromised (or entirely disregarded) in pursuit of the maker's artistic vision, the result might well be "art" but is it a knife?

Whatever one might call it, such a product would hold little or no interest for me.

Roger

 

[Joss]

It's a continuum. A non HT steel knife is probably better than one made of gold - even work hardened. Or not? I don't know. Neither qualifies as a knife as far as I'm concerned.

Blueing, some mosaic damascus, and the inclusion of pure nickel in damascus all go against the pure performance aspects.

I have also seen knives that were fully functional and perfectly HT'ed, but had not been sharpened.