What is the point?

RogerP said:
I definitely aree with this. Perhaps much turns on the definition of "art knife", but to my mind, if function is such a diminished consideration that it is significantly compromised (or entirely disregarded) in pursuit of the maker's artistic vision, the result might well be "art" but is it a knife?

Whatever one might call it, such a product would hold little or no interest for me.

Roger
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There are a couple of questions that we will not answer on this thread, in this Forum, in the history of mankind....

1. What is art?

2. What is a knife?...We can come up with some basic definitions, but not the whole enchilada....because what a knife is, is so varied. A laser is certainly a knife in application, but we won't be collecting those, not here, same as glass scalpels used in eye surgery...maybe one for interest, but a whole bunch? Heck, we can't even come up with a rock-solid definition for a Bowie.

3. What are the standards of performance in a knife? This will never be answered...because there are those that feel a knife is to CUT with, and what the cutter expects is their standard of performance, and those that feel a knife should do anything asked of it, and when you make it a "kitchen sink" knife, many things get compromised to some degree.

To be clear....much of what we discuss on the Forums is constructive critique of PHOTOGRAPHS of knives....things like finish and design elements can certainly be critiqued, these are the aesthetic elements that get us to stop at a makers' table at a show in the first place.

The things that David is asking about, as far as I can tell, are performance-based criteria to be revealed with much time dedicated to the use of the knife..and again based upon what the user needs...Riad's use and expectations of a knife in the kitchen, will not be the same as the home chef, will not be the same as JParanee's requirements for use in hunting and self defense, will not be the same as PTG's need for a superior letter opener, lol.:D

Roger, would you have had interest in the Loerchner pokey things that Coop and Joss have shown recently, which can't really CUT?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven and I talked about this a couple nights ago.. I think constructive critisism is vital to a makers growth. THAT being said it helps if the person actually knows what he is talking about. I can remember one guy on this forum who had one of my knives and was saying the sheath was too loose. He went on and on about how he expected more from me. I simply asked if he had tried tightening THE RETENTION SCREW!! Well suddenly all was well. But if I hadnt seen it, there would be people out there who think my sheaths suck.
Early on I had a hard time taking ANY critisism. But once I looked at it objectively often the citique was correct. I think the worst mistake a maker can make is to ignore the insight of his customers. Sometimes you may not want to hear it, but some of the best improvements come from feedback of people who are using your knives.

I think educated cristisism can be a very valuable tool in a makers evolution, but critisism must be taken from people who KNOW of what they speak.
Steven strikes me as a very knowledgable guy, and I would have no problem taking his evaluations of what I do to heart. That wouldnt be true of just anyone who had something to say, especially is they are wrong;-)

Take care
Trace Rinaldi
www.THRblades.com
www.CustomKnivesandGuns.com
 
Kohai999 said:
Roger, would you have had interest in the Loerchner pokey things that Coop and Joss have shown recently, which can't really CUT?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Oh - they can cut. It wouldn't be my first choice for slicing salami, but I wouldn't run my thumb on the edge with any pressure at all.
 
Joss said:
Oh - they can cut. It wouldn't be my first choice for slicing salami, but I wouldn't run my thumb on the edge with any pressure at all.
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Joss, you know what I mean.....paper can cut, so can plastic(clam pack, anyone?) What Wolfe does is much more art than performance....unless you are interested in penetration, which I imagine they would excel at.

You didn't buy the Loechner to use.....you purchased it for aesthetic enjoyment, right?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Roger, would you have had interest in the Loerchner pokey things that Coop and Joss have shown recently, which can't really CUT?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Oh heck yes! The Loerchner knives I have handled sure look like they can cut. Besides, daggers are "stabby". ;)

Roger
 
I have to say that I am very grateful for - an encouraged by - the responses posted by makers on this thread.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Oh heck yes! The Loerchner knives I have handled sure look like they can cut. Besides, daggers are "stabby". ;)

Roger
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Many of Loerchner's knives are fully functional, cut AND poke....the point was that Coop's specifically, and Joss's less so, were made a) to look nice, and b) as pokey/stabby objects....which sort of limits the useful purpose...and with your specific profession, you probably know that better than anyone else here.

Could you make the argument, if you had to, that an "art" dagger-grind is anything other than a) art OR b)weapon...could it legally be a utility knife, say? This is not the Knife Law forum, but this goes back to the original point that David and Jose seem to be making about performance expectations and/or the lack of usefullness of "art" knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Many of Loerchner's knives are fully functional, cut AND poke....the point was that Coop's specifically, and Joss's less so, were made a) to look nice, and b) as pokey/stabby objects....which sort of limits the useful purpose...and with your specific profession, you probably know that better than anyone else here.

Could you make the argument, if you had to, that an "art" dagger-grind is anything other than a) art OR b)weapon...could it legally be a utility knife, say? This is not the Knife Law forum, but this goes back to the original point that David and Jose seem to be making about performance expectations and/or the lack of usefullness of "art" knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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There isn't much mystery about the design purpose of a dagger - and it's not to chop 2 by 4's. Yes, I know you know this, I am stating the obvious to illustrate a point - that being that the function of such a design is not compromised by it's inability to perform such a task any more than a wakizashi is functionally compromised by its inability to skin game. Wolfe's daggers - and those by a great many others are not functionally compromised as I use the term. Not all blades can do all things.

And legally - any dagger I might own is a letter opener and fully functional in that capacity. ;)

Roger
 
tom mayo said:
"You are evil and must be destroyed...." Steel Magnolias



:D
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Hmmmm, criticism, let me give it a try. :confused:

OK, here I go, I'm just going to come right out and say what I have wanted to for some time. Tom Mayos knives have holes in them, there, I said it! :eek:
 
jonathan brand said:
Megalobyte, What is actually happening in that picture of the shop at home guy?
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I'm not Megalobyte , but it is the Knife Network thingy on Home Shopping Network, and the Aryan mooron is beating a chinese junker against the table, and it frags on him, and cuts his arm or chest or stomach, fairly deep, and he collapses, and can be heard yelling "it got me good", from behind the table...it is like the food fight scene in Animal House for knife people!:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Huckster #2 stands in and explains that the injured huckster
"...must have hit a nail"

I'm still looking for those nails :D
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I agree Jose, but what I meant was that even if the knives are made to be as functional as they can be, how many people are going to be using them, or testing them, so that we can get an idea of the performance? I want my knives to be made as if my life might some day depend on them, but I have no intention of using most of them.
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That's true, even a lot of expensive "performance" knives never see any use... :D
 
I am one of STevens biggest fans on the forum simply because of posts like this. I am a knife guy. I have sold knives for a LIVING..I have designed knives...I have consulted with major knife companies..I have written dozens of magazine articles.. I buy knives. I sleep knives. I eat knives...BUT...I couldn't make a knife if I went to school for 4 years in old Warshington to do it. I have no interest in making knives. Yet, I know more about knives than most makers of knives. There. I said it. I spilled the beans.

I have probably owned close to one thousand knives. I have tested hundreds of knives. I have critiqued hundreds of knives and gone to dozens of shows, handled thousands of knives and still buy many per year. I know damn well what I like, too.

When makers start listening to their best collectors, they will, in turn become successful. People know what they like. They really do.

D. Lisch, as a new maker I hope you eventully make some good copies of Wheeler knives. You know why-?-Wheeler knives are in HIGH demand. If Nick were a full time maker he would probbaly have a realistic 3-5 year backlog. Someone needs to step in and make some Wheeler knives, just like half of Arkansas makes FISK Knives(and some Crowells too)! After you make a few hundred of them, then go get creazy and follow your muse. I bet she looks a whole lot different then.

People want Wheeler knives(and Fisk knives)! Its simply marketing! If you want to make a living selling knives, make knives people want and stop getting offended when people suggest changes or modifications to what you make! You can't eat knives! I have tried! They f-ing hurt going down!
 
I visited John Deere here in my town today. A few days ago i hit a stump, hidden by grass, w/ my 1yr old $500 John Deere lawnmower, and it went wacko.

Turns out, there's no fixing it, i totally destroyed this fine machine! hitting the stump bent the main "thingy", now causes it to shake violently. I would need to spend another $400 replacing the engine.

So, I left it at the shop, giving up, disappointed... Said it was like surrendering my dog..

Someone should have written in big bright letters, on the front of the mower,
"Warning: Don't Hit Stumps"- ... for people like me.

Next week i'll start looking for a cheap replacement.

I'm no philosopher, but there is a lesson which i will figure out. ..(or i may need to see a therapist)
David
 
2knife said:
I visited John Deere here in my town today. A few days ago i hit a stump, hidden by grass, w/ my 1yr old $500 John Deere lawnmower, and it went wacko.

Turns out, there's no fixing it, i totally destroyed this fine machine! hitting the stump bent the main "thingy", now causes it to shake violently. I would need to spend another $400 replacing the engine.

So, I left it at the shop, giving up, disappointed... Said it was like surrendering my dog..

Someone should have written in big bright letters, on the front of the mower,
"Warning: Don't Hit Stumps"- ... for people like me.

Next week i'll start looking for a cheap replacement.

I'm no philosopher, but there is a lesson which i will figure out. ..(or i may need to see a therapist)
David
Click to expand...

And I though my dog eating one of my new Paul Long sheaths was bad.
 
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