What is your dream forging press?

I admit to being a little anal retentive about TRYING to keep my shop clean and picked up. Lord knows it can get to be like the black hole of Calcutta if you don't try to keep up with it. That is why I put the slag catchers (trays) under the dies of my press. It keeps 99% of all that crap off the floor so it don't get tracked everywhere. I attached mine by tack welding at first, and later removed them so they are held on by a couple of 1/4" bolts. That came into being when I realized they were in the way and had to be removed to use the press for a twisting vise. Like Nick I keep a supply of spacer blocks handy from .070 through 2" and use these all the time. In the shop tour of my website you can see the trays on the press if you want to look.
www.billsblades.com
edited to incluce the "s" in the address - thanks Nick!
 
Hey Buddy-

Not to hijack Mike's thread anymore than it already has been... but I looked over the site the other night and everything looks REALL GOOD!

Who would'a thought that big Texan would be offering tapered tangs?!?!?! :D

BTW- You forgot an "s" my friend

http://www.billsblades.com


-Nick-
 
This is Rons method for holding the dies as well as his slag catcher.I will be posting a drawing of some ideas I had for securing the dies in the next day or so. Any feedback or ideas are welcome.
 
Ron, what are the pros and cons of this method of securing the dies? (it looks pretty damn good to me) Is there any reason to change it? I dont want to reinvent the wheel here. I have never used a press before so i dont know what the downside to this method is, if any.

Anyone else have any experience with this?
 
basically just like my die holders, mike, except the back of my anvil and slide form the rear stop on a c-frame. other than blowing out the tack-welds on the angle iron on one side because i had a billet shift from my own stoopid, they've been good. it works fine once i welded the whole piece in solid. it's a good idea to include the die stop in case one wants to squirt a little until you learn never to be stoopid like i am.
 
Mike the thing to keep in mind is ease of changing out as I have said speed is not a big thing but making it easy is to me anyway .
When using a press you want every thing to line up as close as you can top and bottom dies need to be lined up if not it will scoot the dies ‘ ,
I have reinforced the sides of the die holders with a ½ “x 2x4" peace to support more side pressure .Not shown in this picture
A lot guys have been forging in the bevels of there knives and hawks with spacial dies but it creates side pressure so I have solved that problem with these side plats ,this would be ideal place fore spacer blocks .
And its welded al around to support angle iron keeper .

These have worked well for me but I would like to see other ways to hold dies .
To evolve is to build a better press , there is always room for improvement and this is a good place to entertain those ideals
Pictures would be nice
Bowie
 
Here is my initial thought. I can see this changing alot as it developes. The die is held in place by the tabs on the back and towards the front on the sides. There will be a quick release clamp (weld fixture clamp) welded to the vertical tubes on the front that will clamp into the hole on the front of the die. There is also a built in handle on the front of the die plate.(obviously) The item in blue is welded to the 1" plate.
The last pic is the clamp that i was thinking of using. It would clamp intoi the hole in the front of the die plate by tthe handle. IT would push the die towards the back and the tabs would hold the plate down.

Bring it on everyone. I know there will be suggestions on this one and I am all for it.
 
Sorry, I realized i dont have a pic of the front. The part lined in green is welded to the die plate. The clamp presses on the hole in that part. The second pic is a side view with the clamp crudely drawn in. When the clamp is opened it will swing back out of the way.

Does any of this make sense? I am not even sure if any of this is needed. I believe it would secure the dies pretty good but im still not happy with the design yet.
 
We use those toggle clamps all the time at work. For this application, they'd work really well. I'd remove the rubber coating though, there will be enough heat to melt that, and flux will melt it away.

My question about the die holding arrangement, is the plate that the dies are on. While it wouldn't be a problem for me to model something like that and setup the VMC's to run them(or wire them if I really felt pretentious), not everybody has a way to make that shape and make it consistant. Maybe simplify the outline or something?

I've followed this thread from the beginning, and I'm still curious how the upright supports will end up working. I know that modeling shows it will be ok, but I'm sure you've seen where modeling and real world have a few different variables that rear their ugly heads. I share the concern about flux, scale, dust, whatever getting on those slides if they are exposed. I noticed that on the slides, you're looking at 0.0075 per side of clearance. If the top die shifts at all then one side will have reduced clearance. Heat will ultimately travel to the sliders after the press has been used long enough. Will the unbalanced load combined with thermal expansion cause binding problems?

Jamie
 
polarbearforge said:
We use those toggle clamps all the time at work. For this application, they'd work really well. I'd remove the rubber coating though, there will be enough heat to melt that, and flux will melt it away.

My question about the die holding arrangement, is the plate that the dies are on. While it wouldn't be a problem for me to model something like that and setup the VMC's to run them(or wire them if I really felt pretentious), not everybody has a way to make that shape and make it consistant. Maybe simplify the outline or something?

I've followed this thread from the beginning, and I'm still curious how the upright supports will end up working. I know that modeling shows it will be ok, but I'm sure you've seen where modeling and real world have a few different variables that rear their ugly heads. I share the concern about flux, scale, dust, whatever getting on those slides if they are exposed. I noticed that on the slides, you're looking at 0.0075 per side of clearance. If the top die shifts at all then one side will have reduced clearance. Heat will ultimately travel to the sliders after the press has been used long enough. Will the unbalanced load combined with thermal expansion cause binding problems?

Jamie
Click to expand...
All excellent questions. The die plates are something Im still up in the air about. I dont know if there is any reason to change the design at all. If it works, dont fix it. I have access to a laser so I, or anyone could have someone local laser 10 or 20 and that would be it. I would bet if you went to some local shop that had a laser and explained what you need and offered to trade a knife or some damascus... who knows what you can get. You are right about keeping it simple thou. Any suggestions on the design shown? I could email the model to you to speed up the process. I'm open to what ever will work. (pic of flats added. Grey part is 3/8" plate, Blue part is 1/4" plate only one piece is needed. Its welded to the press to hold the grey part)

I have attached a pic of the ram in the lowest position and there is still a little of the round guide exposed. I was planning opn attaching some sort of guard on the collar to cover up that last few inches. Maybe some heat resistant cloth? A small piece of something that is flexable so when it drops down it curls towards the dies.

As far as thermal expansion goes, the ram guides are 2" round and the piston on the cylinder is 2" round so i know the strength is there and im not sure if they are going to get hot enough to expand enough to bind. They might,but i dont think they will. (this wont be the first time i was wrong if they do)The tubes on a traditional h-frame press are used as guides and they are pretty close to the billet and i dont think they move enough to effect the operation of the ram.

Do you think there will be enough heat to cause thermal exspansion?
 
There could be a problem from expansion. Most of my information for that is at work, so I'll check when I go in.

I know that our jig grinders have an accordion style cover over the head to help protect from dust. Something else that might work, is the same style of protection that a lot of hardness testers have. It's a cascading series of tubes that fit within each other. That would provide protection from dust and flux.

For me, I could make the plates if I wanted them at work. VMC's (vertical machining centers) and wire edms would work really well. We don't have a cutting laser, and I don't think there is anybody in my little town that does. I'm in small town South Dakota. The nearest "large" city is only 125,000 people. I'm not sure what design would work better. I'll get back on that. ;)

Jamie
 
polarbearforge said:
There could be a problem from expansion. Most of my information for that is at work, so I'll check when I go in.


Jamie
Click to expand...
I can see if you were pressing for 8 hours a day but a few hours at a time, i cant see it getting hot enough. The shield to keep the slag off the guides would also act as a heat sheild to some extent, wouldnt it?

(Disclaimer- I have no experience making damascus in a press so this may be another case of cranial-rectal impaction on my part)
 
Personally, I don't think they'll heat up enough to be any problem.

I agree, while it could theoretically be a problem, I don't think it will happen within the timeframe you'll be working. Radiant heat won't be a real issue and the frame and 1" plate provide a huge heat sink. Yes, it will all get slowly warmer, but nothing like the dies with their direct contact with the billets.

Just my $.02.
 
fitzo said:
Personally, I don't think they'll heat up enough to be any problem.

I agree, while it could theoretically be a problem, I don't think it will happen within the timeframe you'll be working. Radiant heat won't be a real issue and the frame and 1" plate provide a huge heat sink. Yes, it will all get slowly warmer, but nothing like the dies with their direct contact with the billets.

Just my $.02.
Click to expand...
The billet isnt in the press for a significant amount of time per squish is it? I cant see enough heat getting on the bars and causing any effect either. Even if your pressing off center, closer to one guide bar, there still wouldnt be a significant amount of heat built up. Yoiu bump it a few times and pull it out for reheat, right Mike.

By the way. The collars are now made out of thicker Stainless tube, not the thinner mild steel tube. They should hold up better and if there is any wear on the guide system, i would rather it be on the 2" round bar and not the collars that are welded to the 1" plate ram. The 2" guides are easier to replace.
 
I would say the average time under the dies would be 20-30 seconds and seldom a full minute. That's a SWAG, as I have never measured the time and it seems to always cool faster than I'd like.... ;)
 
adammichael said:
The billet isnt in the press for a significant amount of time per squish is it? I cant see enough heat getting on the bars and causing any effect either. Even if your pressing off center, closer to one guide bar, there still wouldnt be a significant amount of heat built up. Yoiu bump it a few times and pull it out for reheat, right Mike.

By the way. The collars are now made out of thicker Stainless tube, not the thinner mild steel tube. They should hold up better and if there is any wear on the guide system, i would rather it be on the 2" round bar and not the collars that are welded to the 1" plate ram. The 2" guides are easier to replace.
Click to expand...



fitzo said:
I would say the average time under the dies would be 20-30 seconds and seldom a full minute. That's a SWAG, as I have never measured the time and it seems to always cool faster than I'd like.... ;)
Click to expand...


Mike F may I mention
we close the dies during reheat so the dies retain some heat also so they will heat to a point , corect me if you don't.. :)

I'm not sure if I put that the right way.. :confused: but you know what I mean...
 
Dan Gray said:
Mike may I mention
we close the dies during reheat so the dies retain heat also so they will heat to a point , corect me if you don't.. :)
Click to expand...

Dan, I made a piece of 1/2" plate with a handle welded on to use as a preheat plate and I started cycling that back and forth with the billets the first few heats to get the dies warmed. If I remember right, I got the idea for that from Buxton or Duncan. Could'a been Bowie for all I know. I've learned so much from those three it's hard to keep separated who i owe a specific gratitude to. Thank you, my friends!

Since I usually use the heating time to scrape and/or brush my dies clean I usually don't close them up after that. I have to say, though, it's not a bad idea at all! Good tip, thanks!! :)

It's certainly a good idea to keep 'em hot, right up until I forget just how hot and grab one with a non-gloved hand to change out! Dang, I HATE when that happens. :(
 
Just another personal way of doing things. I don't heat my dies at all. They get hot fast enough just working the billet. Nor do I close the dies between squishes while the billet is back in the forge. The time spent back in the fire for the billet is neglible compared to getting the billet up to weld heat the first time. It works for me but everyone works differently.
 
Keep me posted on the progress of the cable billet Nick! I may even come down to get in on it.

OOPS posted in the wrong spot guys - sorry.
 
I'm with Bill-

I know some things are different due to our climate here and all.

I would rather have the press dies open and ready to squish the billet as soon as it's at forging heat... than have a hot plate in the dies and have to open the press, take out the hot plate, and set it somewhere. And THEN be able to go to work on the billet.

I take small bites with the appropiate dies, and move the billet quickly. Working it front to back and then back to front. I work the lever like a mad-man.

You can move steel amazingly fast this way.

But like Bill said, different strokes... :)

-Nick-
 
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