What kind of folder do you really want?

[OilMan]

This has been a big misunderstanding, but I seem to be the bad guy.

Misunderstanding? You seemed to be pretty clear when you were repeatedly saying AllenC was ignorant for his valid opinion.:jerkit:

I did not know that I was so hated on this forum. I also did not know that there were people here so petty that they would make a post just to say that I am on their ignore list, or to imply that I am immature because I am only 23. I thought the people here were better than that. I know I am. I may argue a lot, but I take issue with what people say, and do not make posts just to make them feel bad. AllenC went way off topic and way out of line to call me a retard (when I had done nothing but attack his words), and he is the good guy and I am the bad guy. You guys then proceed to make posts with no point other than to insult me and make me feel bad.

So you're upset people did to you exactly what you did to AllenC?:jerkit:

I find it scary that everyone seems to be on his side. I find it scary that everyone seems to take my words as meaning Group C knives are better than Group B knives and people that disagree are ignorant, when I actually said nothing of the sort.

I find it scary that you find it scary that people will defend someone when someone else is doing them wrong for no intelligent reason.

Seems to me like it is more of a popularity contest than actually a matter of what I said.

I don't know AllenC from Adam but I do know that he didn't deserve the crap you were spouting.

I know you will all say "good riddence", play the world's smallest violin, and call me a wuss, but I'm not coming back. I do not see a point in participating on a forum that hates me for reasons I feel are totally imaginary.

This seems to be better for all of you, and better for me.

More drama. I do think I can hear that violin though. IMHO the mods should have done something about your comments before AllenC went off.

oil

 

[EDCeeker]

At this point in my Dozier collecting, I just can't give one away. In years, I would be more willing. I enjoy giving, but amassing a nice Dozier collection is my main hobby/goal right now.

Selfish, materialistic, shallow? Yes on all accounts.

It's neither selfish, materielistic, nor necessarily shallow, IMO. One presumes you worked hard for the money you earned to purchase those knives. How is it selfish, materialistic or shallow to trade part of your time in this life for time with something else in this life? That's what you're doing, you know.

The attitude that one shouldn't enjoy the fruits of their labour strikes me as evil. How you enjoy it is nobody's business but your own. (Within certain moral, ethical and legal limits, of course.)

 

[EDCeeker]

Well said, grasshopper! An object is just a means to an end .... imperfect, impermanent, and empty of any real importance.

Imperfect: Yes. Impermanent: Yes. Empty of any real importance: Poppycock. All else being equal: In any endeavor, the better the tool is suited to the task, the more quickly, easily and efficiently the task might be accomplished.

 

[mp510]

Every knife I own would fall into group A except 1. Group A knives get the job done, and when you carry them, you don't worry about minor knicks in the blade or scuffing the tool up.

I own 1 knife from group B. It is a custom fixed blade. I know that I would be upset if I damaged the wood on that knife.

 

[EDCeeker]

Based on my life I have to disagree with the idea that the enjoyment you get out of an object is based on the object itself.

Would you care to expand on that? Based on face value, it makes absolutely no sense. Based on face value, you would have us believe you believe there's no difference to be appreciated between a well-made tool and one of less competent construction. No difference between a piece of wood-working created by a master craftsman and that of a wood-working weekend warrior. No difference between the efforts of a master chef and a fry cook. And, to bring it back on-topic, no difference between a well-made knife, constructed of good materials, and a cheap knock-off, poorly constructed of inferior materials.

 

[Guyon]

On a side note: I was on a board once where there was no edit function. That will get you right with God before you hit send.

That would make for interesting threads, indeed!

Most of my edits are minor grammatical/mechanical/stylistic changes, but I've had occasion to rethink and "take back" some thoughts.

You're right though. Without EDIT, we all might think a little harder before punching Submit Reply.

 

[Guyon]

Would you care to expand on that? Based on face value, it makes absolutely no sense. Based on face value, you would have us believe you believe there's no difference to be appreciated between a well-made tool and one of less competent construction. No difference between a piece of wood-working created by a master craftsman and that of a wood-working weekend warrior. No difference between the efforts of a master chef and a fry cook. And, to bring it back on-topic, no difference between a well-made knife, constructed of good materials, and a cheap knock-off, poorly constructed of inferior materials.

Vivi rides an "air" skateboard. He really doesn't need the skateboard itself. Sometimes he just stands for hours on a two-by-four.

Nor does he need a machete. He just uses a butter knife. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428723 :thumbup:

 

[EDCeeker]

Does anyone else find allenC's comments extremely sickening, misinformed, and just plain ignorant?

No. Not really. I guess I don't agree with them 100%. Hard for me to say, as I've no experience with $450 knives. I simply cannot afford such knives. Maybe they're "better" than $100 production knives, and maybe they're not. But I suspect that, for most of us and for most uses, the attraction is mostly due to reasons other than those of pure functionality. Just a guess, mind you.

 

[EDCeeker]

Okay, now that I've read the whole thing...

As to the original question: I'm in the A-B range: Knives in the $25 to, say, $200 range. Probably mostly in the $50-$150 range. I don't know as more expensive knives are any "better," functionally, and, in any event, I can neither justify nor affored them. However, I can understand the (potential) attraction.

As to the secondary issue (which took over): I think AllenC got the raw end of the stick.

 

[znapschatz]

Category A only. I have never worn out any of them, and those damaged were under conditions that would have done the same to any grade of knife.

It has been my good luck to live in an age where knives for my particular needs are so cheap that I need not spend more for any improvements in performance, ergonomics or construction. Or, looking at it another way, further improvements would be lost on me.

It's not that I don't appreciate quality workmanship or the finer points of knifecraft (after all, I'm interested enough to post here), but I have something of a minimalist philosophy on the necessary tools of life. I can afford better, but because a Timex Expedition in a plastic case ($12.50 on sale at KMart 2 years ago) does everything I need in a watch, that's what I wear. It keeps as good time as I'll ever need. Every three years, I replace it. None have ever malfunctioned. I'm like that on a range of EDC items. For some reason, this makes me feel smug.

On the other hand, I'm a photographer by occupation. My photo equipment is high end because that level of performance and build quality is a responsible requirement for the job. A weekend amateur would be free to choose from a much wider selection of good price/performance camera gear. However, I have to spend for my requirements, as would be the case for outdoor specialists, seasoned hunters, tradesmen and others who know their needs when it comes to selecting knives. So if someone in that category opts for a $500 knife, I defer to their expertise.

There is no bad in simply wanting to own fine things, knives included. Many people enjoy the tactile and psychic pleasure of handling a beautifully crafted yet functional object. If they are willing to spend for that, good for them, although I am not among their number...at least, about knives.

 

[OldPhysics]

I collect in two classes: category B for use (and appreciation of a knife as a knife) and category C for the same reason my wife collects certain 3D objects and oil paintings -- an artistic sense we can afford to indulge (after long and mostly successful working lives).

I can't say my artistic sense is anywhere near as refined, sophisticated, or informed as my wife's, but I do appreciate knives made by craftsmen who combine a high degree of skill with originality and that certain dramatic flair. I don't have a lot of class C knives, but I 'love' the ones I do have.

Must admit...the older I get the more I start to understand Vivi's point about free time (i.e., time spent on purely personal pursuits).

Edit: I should add that with the exception of two Damascus knives, I actually use my class C knives. I know some don't use their more expensive and/or custom knives.

 

[allenC]

Good evening one and all, it's good to be back!

I would like to give a huge THANKS to those who stood by me or to those who at least felt that the banishment was unfair.
You know who you are and I truely appreciate your integrity and understanding. :thumbup:

I probably should not have taken the bait...but what's done is done.

Now, let's get back to talking about knives and such!


Thanks again,
Allen.

 

[yahooBlade]

Allen - Welcome back!

 

[Vivi]

Would you care to expand on that? Based on face value, it makes absolutely no sense. Based on face value, you would have us believe you believe there's no difference to be appreciated between a well-made tool and one of less competent construction. No difference between a piece of wood-working created by a master craftsman and that of a wood-working weekend warrior. No difference between the efforts of a master chef and a fry cook. And, to bring it back on-topic, no difference between a well-made knife, constructed of good materials, and a cheap knock-off, poorly constructed of inferior materials.

The conclusions you're drawing have very little bearing to anything I said. The phrase was not written saying different levels of craftmanship do not warrant varied levels of appreciation for their design and working ability. There is a difference between a hand-made Puuko of exotic wood and bone handle materials with leather sheath and a standard Eriksson Mora for 8$. I wasn't denying this, I was only stating that any enjoyment one would get from this design and the material aspects of the knife are rather negligable compared to the enjoyment one receives from the products of using said knife.

If I keep my nice Puuko in a drawer and just admire it, I can think to myself it's a fine knife. If I use it, I develop a better appreciation for it. If I produce lots of well constructed fires, hand-carved walking sticks, sets of bows and arrows or even just whittle some small objects, I would find greater satisfaction in making these objects than I would owning the fine knife. There is more joy to be found making a bow and arrow using an 8$ Mora than there is to simply own and admire the craftsmanship of a 50$ Puuko. There is a clear difference between the knives that warrants the change in value, but these things that bring up the price will never be part of the knifes greatest capacity to please its owner. A ferrari driven on a busy 25 mph city road warrants less excitement and pleasure than a beat-up pick-up driven down the winding mountain paths of West Virginia. My 2$ butter knife brings me more satisfaction in constructing a shelter than a 600$ Busse would sitting inside a safe at my house, despite the latters obvious improvements in design and overall quality.

The pride comes from the journey and the result, not the shoes used to walk it. When Beethoven composed his symphonies, was he pre-occupied with the quality of his piano or focused on what he was writing? When Michelangelo was busy painting chapels, would you argue he derived more pleasure from his appreciation of the fine qualities of his paint, or from what he painted with them? Did Da Vinci go down in history for his use of notably fine sketching pencils or the ideas he recorded with them?

 

[howiesatwork]

Well, the jump is from B at $120 to C at $450... what's in-between?
I guess I'll have to say B+ or C-...

 

[EDCeeker]

The conclusions you're drawing have very little bearing to anything I said. The phrase was not written saying different levels of craftmanship do not warrant varied levels of appreciation for their design and working ability.

You had written that you "... disagree with the idea that the enjoyment you get out of an object is based on the object itself." That was kind of open-ended, thus my request for clarification and illustration of the reason for the request.

 

[Vivi]

Sorry for the vauge wording of the statement. Hope my reply cleared up any questions you had.

 

[yahooBlade]

I know that it is not really a good idea to categorize knives by prices. However, I found that it is an easier way and it is more or less related to the other aspects of knives.

To me, knives in Group A are relatively inexpensive knives. They are perhaps the most popular knives to general public. They are often seen to be used by our neighbours or colleagues, like Buck 110 and SAK. They are beaters. However, to people at BF, they often lack a desired superior steel, handle, or lock. Knives in Group B have superior steels, handles, or locks frequently mentioned by people at BF. Of course, they cost more. Knives in Group C are knives that have got some special 'personal care' during production process. For example, customer knives are tailored to customer's special requirement; labor is perhaps used to find the best fit for each Sebenza in assembly process and etc. Such special 'personal care' in production is often expensive. Cut it short:

Group A ==> Knives w/o superior materials ==========================> Inexpensive
Group B ==> Knives with superior materials =========================> More Expensive
Group C ==> Knives with superior materials + personal care in production ===> Quite Expensive

A knife in Group C is not my choice. I can afford it, but I personally do not think it is worthwhile for me due to the fact that I only use knife occasionally and I am not wealthy enough to burn money without a good enough reason. If I have never visited BF and got so many ideas about steels, handles, and locks, I would go straight for a knife in Group A. I know that those knives are used by millions of people out there, and they do a good enough job. The knowledge from BF has somehow allured me to consider the knives with superior steels, handles, and locks only, and I incline to a knife in Group B. Still, I doubt if it would make any difference to use a knife in Group A or Group B for occasional normal knife use.

 

[allenC]

Well stated, and I agree.